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Page Handguns » H&K
Posted: 2/23/2006 2:13:12 PM EDT
Anyone seen the glock torture test in the handgun discussion forum? I'm interested in buying an HK USP since I've just sold my Glock. But after reading the post about what this guy put his Glock through, I'm thinking maybe I made a mistake. Anyone prefer HK over Glocks and why? Seems to me that the Glock might bee the perfect combat handgun. I really like HK's but now I'm not so sure.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 2:20:13 PM EDT
I perfer my H&K USP over my Glock any day. Out of the box accuracy is hard to beat. I shoot much tighter groups with my USP45 than I do with my G17. Though i love both guns and i enjoy to shoot them both the H&K has the upper hand. If i had to choose one to use to protect myself it'd be the USP!
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 3:05:17 PM EDT
Having had experience with both systems I only own Glocks YMMV
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 7:02:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/23/2006 7:07:13 PM EDT by ORinTX]
Do NOT let a torture test convince you of anything.

First of all, there are torture tests which show the H&K can handle a BRUTAL beating, and even beat out the glock. Google "USP Torture Test"

What's most important is that you buy a gun that you like and that you shoot well. You're not going to drop your pistol from an airplane or submerse it in buckets of quicksand and then defend yourself with it.

Bigbore's thread was awesome. I had a lot of fun reading it. It didn't convince me to carry a glock. I do own a glock and think they're very nice weapons. I've carried one recently, but I really do prefer carrying my USP Compact.

Glocks have a small # of moving parts, which is good. They're a simple design and very easy to disassemble / reassemble. The USP has more moving parts than the glock and is a more complex design. The 1911 is a more complex design too, and it's pretty much worshipped.

If you're thinking of buying your first pistol, I strongly urge you to rent some if at all possible. Own what you shoot the best.

For MANY people, what they shoot the best ends up being a revolver!

Link Posted: 2/24/2006 5:14:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/24/2006 5:27:40 AM EDT by MyWar]
Bigbores thread is really cool, and it's good to know a pistol can withstand that much abuse. I've read torture tests about the USP's too, and they can also withstand similar abuse.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, its important to note that every gun company can make a lemon.

Get what you're comfortable with, and what has the features you like. Amongst others, I have three HK pistols, and two Glocks. I would trust each of them with my life, and I will not part with any of them if I can help it.

For the record, the ONLY gun that I've ever owned that I felt was a "lemon," was a Glock. I sent it to Glock two times, and it was adjusted and given a clean bill of health each time, and it still malfunctioned on me consistantly. I realize that it was probably a fluke, and I still own Glocks (just not that one).
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 6:40:50 PM EDT
I have own several guns, including Sig Sauer, Glock, Colt, Springfield, Ruger, S&W, HK.
All new guns, out of those brands, the only ones that have absolutely 0 malfunction new out of the box, is the HK.
Others have one or two jam, or need a repaire while the 1911 has the highest records of problems.
Get a Glock if you like. Everyone's got to have a tortured gun once.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 10:06:21 AM EDT
The rest of this topic is right on the money

go for whatever feels best and shoots best

As long as it is one of the majors you probably cant go wrong.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 2:55:16 PM EDT
Both are great guns. Glock magazines are less expensive though.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 5:43:38 PM EDT
I've owned a couple of Glocks & sold them. I've expanded my H&K inventory.

Nothing has the quality of an H&K, IMO, in a factory gun.

My .o2
Link Posted: 3/2/2006 11:02:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BobCole:
I've owned a couple of Glocks & sold them. I've expanded my H&K inventory. hing has the quality of an H&K, IMO, in a factory gun.

My .o2



Same here. Except one pistol I have (FN), I have all H&Ks. I still love Glocks and I will probably buy those Compensated Glocks in the future.

I really am in love with USP and P2000 lines.
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 12:11:22 AM EDT
I bought both. I now have HK exclusively.

Have you heard of any HK factory recall .. errh upgrade? No? Me neither.
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 4:53:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/3/2006 5:00:28 AM EDT by viper5194]
After reading Bigbores thread id go Glock all the way. Look at the part where he packs sand into the USP, it freezes up like someone poured concreat into it. The glock does not. Anyone who has a doubt about Glocks needsto read the post. Itll change your mind on a combat pistol.

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=5&f=4&t=13658

This was done by a member here, and doesnt seem to be scewed or bias.


EDIT to add; The only HK I now own is a USP Tac. I sold my others because after shooting a Glock, i fell in love with them.
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 5:15:31 AM EDT
I currently own both. Both are very reliable and well designed. The HK feels (subjective) like it's made better. I carry an HK USPc even though I have the ability to carry a G19c. I shoot the Glock very well. I also shoot the HK very well.
It really comes down to personal preference. You are not going to get your answer here. All you will get is anectdotal stories and personal preferences. Neither one is the right basis for YOU to make a decision. Suffice to say, either way you choose, you won't go wrong. That choice however, needs to be based upon your own preference and not what you read from biased owners.

Bomber
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 6:45:38 AM EDT
Is the grip a little less fat on the compact USP than compared to the full size USP? Or, are they the same?
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 6:51:46 AM EDT
I don't have any brand loyalty, I just buy what I like. After having gone through enough handguns to sink a boat, I've thinned my inventory down to almost nothing but Kahrs and H&K's.
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 6:58:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/3/2006 6:58:46 AM EDT by ORinTX]

Originally Posted By Shipwreck:
Is the grip a little less fat on the compact USP than compared to the full size USP? Or, are they the same?



Yes, it's a little narrower. This is why USPc mags are steel rather than polymer; they're thinner mags resulting in a smaller magwell.
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 7:08:19 AM EDT
As a point of reference, my USPc45 is for all intents and purposes, the same size as my Glock 19.

Bomber
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 7:11:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/3/2006 7:16:07 AM EDT by ORinTX]

Originally Posted By thebomber:
As a point of reference, my USPc45 is for all intents and purposes, the same size as my Glock 19.

Bomber



Good comparison. For a caliber to caliber comparison, my USP40c is almost identical in size to my glock 23. The USPc is a little wider if you hold them up to compare, but barely. And mostly on the slide, I think.

ETA: I just went and held both, and the grip on my USP40c is definitely narrower around than the Glock 23.

I LOVE my USPs, and the USP Compact is the best carry weapon I've ever had. It fits my hand, points well, makes .40 feel like 9 recoil-wise. I did a low-light IDPA-style match last weekend, and I found myself running around point shooting balloons one-handed while I held my surefire in my left hand. I can't believe how naturally easy it was to just point and hit with that gun.

But, as I said before -- try 'em both if you can and get what you like best. Glocks are fine weapons.
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 9:47:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/3/2006 9:48:27 AM EDT by Cross_Steel]
I own both a G22 and USP C 9mm. I love both of them, the USP Compact is easier to conceal. The Glock is easier to do a little gun smithing on. The only broke part I've ever had on the Glock was a broken extractor.

Go with what you like and feel comfortable with. The H&K points better for me and I just really like the gun.
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 1:06:38 PM EDT
I am a fan of the USPs.

The torture tests don't mean much to me, HK has quite a few torture tests out there too. Besides, I live in the city, I don't plan on dropping my gun off a cliff, throwing it out of a plane, or freezing it solid.

Then again, you are asking this in the HK forum, so expect the opinions to be a little biased
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 1:52:30 PM EDT
Anyone know how the grip of a USP .40 compares in size to a Glock 21?

I assume the Glock is bigger, but it never hurts to ask.
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 1:53:30 PM EDT
I've had both. Got rid of the HK.

Not because it wasn't a fine pistol, but it just didn't feel that great to me. I will go against the grain here and say that I don't think the USPc [9mm] has a quality feel. Just my opinion, I put many many rounds of various ammo types and it never gave me any grief.

I like glocks better. Mags are more plentiful and cheaper. I think USP's tend to be overpriced. Once again, just my opinion.

I second the "rent both" suggestion. See which one fits you.
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 9:35:26 PM EDT
Next door neighbor has had 4 Glocks. I have shot them all. I can outshoot him any day with any of them. I hate them. I have 3 HKs and wouldn't trade one of them for all 4 of his Glocks (well, okay, so I could sell them and buy 2 HKs maybe).

Woody
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 11:41:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By joker581:
Anyone know how the grip of a USP .40 compares in size to a Glock 21?

I assume the Glock is bigger, but it never hurts to ask.




Generally speaking, any .40 grip will be slightly smaller than any .45acp grip, IMO.
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 1:19:30 PM EDT
I've had the experience of shooting IPSC Practical Pistol courses with a USP.40 (full size) and Glock 17 w/ 3.5# trigger.

My experiences:

- Empty USP mags shoot out when dropped. I had my mag ready before the Glock ones seemed to clear (more perception than reality likely).
- USP felt more top heavy
- DA trigger pull on a USP sucks. I wish it was less. I'm looking into the LEM triggers now. Obviously the Glock was lighter, but it was also "mushy". USP single action was nice. Not a 1911 match trigger, but then, that's not really needed for IPSC.
- Both shot well, and with no malfs.
- I prefer the USP grip angle.
- The slide release on the USP is much better than Glocks, but I don't use it in normal practice (weak hand slingshot)
- The mag release location. While most everyone doesn't like the USP location, I do. Just me and personal preference. I use both thumb and trigger finger for mag release.
- The USP grip is a meat grinder. At the end of the day your hand is read and you can see the grip teaxture indentations. BUT, it doesn't slip.
- I like the extended trigger guard of the USP over the Glock. I kept hitting it after draw on the Glock. More of a training issue and I have large hands with long fingers.
- I like 3-dot sights. I do not like the U-dot of the Glocks. But then, $25 for a new set of rears and you're golden.

So there you go. Both worked. I prefer the H&K for a few reasons and am willing to pay the price premium to get it. My biggest complaint is the 12# DA trigger pull. Doing speed drills I consistently "pull" the POA regardless of strong of weak hand shooting. More so when doing so one-handed. The Glock obviously did not have this problem.
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 2:51:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NoAim:
I've had the experience of shooting IPSC Practical Pistol courses with a USP.40 (full size) and Glock 17 w/ 3.5# trigger.

My experiences:

- Empty USP mags shoot out when dropped. I had my mag ready before the Glock ones seemed to clear (more perception than reality likely).
- USP felt more top heavy
- DA trigger pull on a USP sucks. I wish it was less. I'm looking into the LEM triggers now. Obviously the Glock was lighter, but it was also "mushy". USP single action was nice. Not a 1911 match trigger, but then, that's not really needed for IPSC.
- Both shot well, and with no malfs.
- I prefer the USP grip angle.
- The slide release on the USP is much better than Glocks, but I don't use it in normal practice (weak hand slingshot)
- The mag release location. While most everyone doesn't like the USP location, I do. Just me and personal preference. I use both thumb and trigger finger for mag release.
- The USP grip is a meat grinder. At the end of the day your hand is read and you can see the grip teaxture indentations. BUT, it doesn't slip.
- I like the extended trigger guard of the USP over the Glock. I kept hitting it after draw on the Glock. More of a training issue and I have large hands with long fingers.
- I like 3-dot sights. I do not like the U-dot of the Glocks. But then, $25 for a new set of rears and you're golden.

So there you go. Both worked. I prefer the H&K for a few reasons and am willing to pay the price premium to get it. My biggest complaint is the 12# DA trigger pull. Doing speed drills I consistently "pull" the POA regardless of strong of weak hand shooting. More so when doing so one-handed. The Glock obviously did not have this problem.

good post, but I have 2 suggestions that could make you like the USP more:
1. Get a hogue handall grip, $8 saves your hands from getting chewed up and you shouldn't have to worry about losing your grip.
2. I *hear* the competition trigger for the USP is a lot nicer than the regular one. They run around $100 though
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 4:22:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 52brandon:
good post, but I have 2 suggestions that could make you like the USP more:
1. Get a hogue handall grip, $8 saves your hands from getting chewed up and you shouldn't have to worry about losing your grip.
2. I *hear* the competition trigger for the USP is a lot nicer than the regular one. They run around $100 though



Also, I'd add this:

Look into making the USP a v9 instead of going the LEM route. It makes a fine cocked & locked pistol.
Link Posted: 3/15/2006 10:25:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gudel:
I bought both. I now have HK exclusively.

Have you heard of any HK factory recall .. errh upgrade? No? Me neither.




Actually, the first USP's had a recall/update for a captive recoil spring/guiderod. Hk's are still the finest out of the box/hi-production handguns made. PERIOD!!
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 6:42:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/16/2006 6:47:00 AM EDT by CopM4]
I own both

One is a GLOCK 35 and the other is a HK USP Expert (45acp) - and even a SIG P220ST

If I had to pick just one to go to Hell with and come back, it would probably be the GLOCK 35

1 Trigger pull is always the same
2 Less parts
3 I can replace anything in the gun - no gunsmith/special tools needed
4 To me the Glock points easier as it has a lower profile slide
5 The price of the GLOCK is the best
6 Mags are inexpensive and plentiful

But I love my HK and SIG though too...

Link Posted: 3/17/2006 11:18:13 PM EDT
Just took a class with Todd Jarrett today. He hates Glocks! They shoot 4"s left at 25 yards! He showed us why. I could not believe it and I cant understand why any1 whould buy one knowing this. He took the gun apart and showed us the amount of flex in the frame up front! It was amazing. One of the guys on our SWAT Team is a competetive shooter and he knows his Glock shoots left but hes stuck with it.
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 10:41:05 AM EDT

The HK recoil reduction system (patent pending), a mechanical dual spring buffering device, is another feature common to the USP and the HK SOCOM pistol. During the USP testing phase, HK engineers discovered this innovative unit reduces the peak force act ing on the USP grip to less than 300 Newtons (66 pounds). Peak force shock on competing .40 caliber polymer and metal framed pistols climbed to more than 5000 Newtons (1102 pounds)



Wow
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 11:46:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NoAim:
I've had the experience of shooting IPSC Practical Pistol courses with a USP.40 (full size) and Glock 17 w/ 3.5# trigger.

My experiences:
- DA trigger pull on a USP sucks. I wish it was less. I'm looking into the LEM triggers now. Obviously the Glock was lighter, but it was also "mushy". USP single action was nice. Not a 1911 match trigger, but then, that's not really needed for IPSC.



I ran a wolf reduced power 10 pound mainspring in my USP FS 9mm Factory is 12 pounds. It is a cheap way to improve the trigger. Only issues were with 9mm Issue Ammo. the hard primers cause 3 ftf out of 2000. Never a problem on factory 9mm.
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 8:10:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By hellsredsled:
Just took a class with Todd Jarrett today. He hates Glocks! They shoot 4"s left at 25 yards! He showed us why. I could not believe it and I cant understand why any1 whould buy one knowing this. He took the gun apart and showed us the amount of flex in the frame up front! It was amazing. One of the guys on our SWAT Team is a competetive shooter and he knows his Glock shoots left but hes stuck with it.



I don't understand.
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 8:31:18 PM EDT
I've shot with my friends, and they're all glockwhores. I'm the only guy with a USP (C, .45). We were out at the range, and they were shooting rounds like crazy. I'm at about 1,500rds now through my USPC, and shooting WWB MOSTLY. I had a few rounds, EACH MAG, nailed on the primer and no boom. I'm extremely new to hanguns, but what gives? I cleaned the gun alot. Should I take the slide all the way apart (rollpins and all) and clean the firing pin?

Point is, Glocks don't need this kind of care. I love my USPC, but there's a few things that I'm not afraid to admit. And, the glocks overall preformance is better. I just like the grip, grip angle, trigger pull, slide release, and mag catch more on the Glock.

And the topheavy.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 4:48:43 PM EDT
Having had experience with both, I'll take an HK over a Glock any time. I sold every Glock I've ever owned. I won't part with the HKs.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 5:30:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Studdermonkey:
I've shot with my friends, and they're all glockwhores. I'm the only guy with a USP (C, .45). We were out at the range, and they were shooting rounds like crazy. I'm at about 1,500rds now through my USPC, and shooting WWB MOSTLY. I had a few rounds, EACH MAG, nailed on the primer and no boom. I'm extremely new to hanguns, but what gives? I cleaned the gun alot. Should I take the slide all the way apart (rollpins and all) and clean the firing pin?



Wowsa. A thorough cleaning couldn't hurt. You might want to take it to a gunsmith or call H/K if you can't find a problem.

I've put mine through more abuse than that without cleaning and not had a failure. It's not typical of the H&K. You can find folks with similar stories about Glocks. My point is that EVERY gun is prone to failure. Own what you shoot the best, not what a torture test or anectdote from a dude on ARFCOM has convinced you is the most durable.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 5:35:11 PM EDT
I don't think you can go wrong with a Glock or a USP.

The best test, grab one of each, point it, if you can shoot it.

After you are done ask yourself "which one felt better in my hand?"

Then get that one.
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 8:50:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ORinTX:
Wowsa. A thorough cleaning couldn't hurt. You might want to take it to a gunsmith or call H/K if you can't find a problem.

I've put mine through more abuse than that without cleaning and not had a failure. It's not typical of the H&K. You can find folks with similar stories about Glocks. My point is that EVERY gun is prone to failure. Own what you shoot the best, not what a torture test or anectdote from a dude on ARFCOM has convinced you is the most durable.



Good advice. That's what I was trying to tell everyone around here, more or less. They're all basically saying now that they have the G19, that the .45 suck, or they can't hit shit with it. I'd like to say I'm decent enough.

Sidenote, I took apart the slide, a good part of it. Clean as a whistle. I guess I'll take it to the range later and see if it's being a bitch again.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 12:02:21 PM EDT
You're going to have a hard time finding a non-biased answer in a H&K Forum and vice versa. Each of us has our preferences and it's hard to be subjective on an issue when you base your opinion on your personal experiences.

Based on my experience, which means nothing to anybody but me.

If I was given the choice and could only pick one pistol to be dropped behind enemy lines with, and that pistol had to be automatic it would have to be a Glock 35 or Glock 20.

Don't get me wrong, I love HK's stuff, although I feel their USP line isn't the best they could have come up with. I prefer their older pistols over the USP line, The P7 and the P9S are brilliant as far as accuracy and reliability, they have some quirks, ie. P7's get damn hot when firing them a lot.

The 23 Mod 0 was a political deal, some big wig somewhere got his pockets fattened in that deal. An SD MP-5 could do as much as the 23 and more, and do it better and more silently, and it was almost the same size as the 23 once you fitted the 23 with the can. I think it was more of a ploy to sell pistols to civilians.

Glocks are paradoxical...
Their tolerances are extremely loose, but it seems that's the secret behind their functionality.
They're just as accurate as the USP's, at least in my hands.
But they will withstand a lot more mistreatment and still function and your don't feel guilty about abusing it.
A filthy USP will malfunction more on average than a Glock. And I'm being nice when I say that.

Someone posted earlier that the Glock wouldn't drop the mag as easy as the USP. That's because some Glock mags (the non sleeved ones I prefer) swell when they're full of ammo. Sucks if you're a competition shooter and you're dropping half full mags all the time. Great if your running and gunning and you don't want to accidentally drop a mag out if you happen to hit the mag release by accident. (they do drop free when they're empty).

I do like HK trigger wells; they've always done a great job making a trigger well that a gloved finger can fit in with no problem.

Hk's are Gucci kit...

Unfortunately, unlike the rest of their Gucci line (barring the 21E) the USP doesn't quite follow in the long line of distinguished, well built and well engineered weaponry. I have no doubt that they could have come out with something a lot better but they were concerned with the price point for our US market.

And there again, an equivalent HK pistol would have probably cost twice what a Glock cost. Glock got it right out of the gate and they've stuck with the "If it aint broke, don't fix it" motto to this day. Say what you will about them but they're hard to beat as a combat pistol.

Sorry USP fans... but you guys should check out the old school P7 or the P9S Target pistols and you can feel the difference for yourselves. The USP was a let down in my opinion.


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