10mm ain't getting rifle ballistics.

Ah! The magic 10mm.  I actually like the cartridge, but I have to shake my head sometimes when people praise its ballistic magic.

It is still a handgun cartridge.  It is still 2nd rate compared to a proper magnum revolver cartridge.

Somehow, that gets forgotten though.

Ehh… heart, lungs, face. In that order unless within knife threat distance. Then you get the facial treatment.

Energy transfer is not a wounding mechanism for small arms fire.

"As clearly illustrated in the relevant scientific literature over the past 20 years, kinetic energy or momentum transfer from a projectile to tissue is not a wounding mechanism."

Dr. G.K. Roberts



WHAT'S WRONG WITH THE WOUND BALLISTICS LITERATURE, AND WHY

by M.L. Fackler, M.D.
Letterman Army Institute of Research
Division of Military Trauma Research
Presidio of San Francisco, California 94219
Institute Report No. 239




The “Shock Wave” Myth

By Dr. Martin Fackler

Wound Ballistics Review, Winter 1991 and the Journal of Trauma, (29[10]: 1455, 1989).





Ballistic Injury

By Dr. Martin Fackler

Annals of Emergency Medicine, December 1986




Bullet Penetration

By Duncan MacPherson

Every year in this country nearly half a million people have total hip joint replacements, whether due to trauma or severe arthritis.




....

The pelvic girdle is a ring.  It needs to be fractured in two different locations to cause immobilty and a perp that's on the ground can still pull a trigger and put a bullet in you.

..

Pay attention boys and girls.

...

Here's what a trauma surgeon and actual expert in the field of terminal ballistics has to say about pelvice/hip shots.

Fackler ML: "Shots to the Pelvic Area". Wound Ballistics Review. 4(1):13; 1999.

“I welcome the chance to refute the belief that the pelvic area is a reasonable target during a gunfight. I can find no evidence or valid rationale for intentionally targeting the pelvic area in a gunfight. The reasons against, however, are many. They include:

-- From the belt line to the top of the head, the areas most likely to rapidly incapacitate the person hit are concentrated in or near the midline. In the pelvis, however, the blood vessels are located to each side, having diverged from the midline, as the aorta and inferior vena cava divide at about the level of the navel. Additionally, the target that, when struck, is the most likely to cause rapid and reliable incapacitation, the spinal cord located in the midline of the abdomen, thorax and neck), ends well above the navel and is not a target in the pelvis.

-- The pelvic branches of the aorta and inferior vena cava are more difficult to hit than their parent vessels -- they are smaller targets, and they diverge laterally from the midline (getting farther from it as they descend). Even if hit, each carry far less blood than the larger vessels from which they originated. Thus, even if one of these branches in the pelvis is hit, incapacitation from blood loss must necessarily be slower than from a major vessel hit higher up in the torso.

-- Other than soft tissue structures not essential to continuing the gunfight (loops of bowel, bladder) the most likely thing to be struck by shots to the pelvis would be bone. The ilium is a large flat bone that forms most of the back wall of the pelvis. The problem is that handgun bullets that hit it would not break the bone but only make a small hole in passing through it: this would do nothing to destroy bony support of the pelvic girdle. The pelvic girdle is essentially a circle: to disrupt its structure significantly would require breaking it in two places. Only a shot that disrupted the neck or upper portion of the shaft of the femur would be likely to disrupt bony support enough to cause the person hit to fall. This is a small and highly unlikely target: the aim point to hit it would be a mystery to those without medical training — and to most of those with medical training.

The “theory” stated in the question postulates that “certain autonomic responses the body undergoes during periods of stress” causes officers to shoot low, and that apparently this is good in a gunfight because such shots cause “severe disability.” I hope that the points presented above debunk the second part of the theory.

As for the “autonomic responses” that cause officers to shoot low, I am unaware of anything in the anatomy or physiology of the autonomic nervous system that would even suggest such an occurrence. Most laymen do not understand the function of the autonomic nervous system. It is simply a system whose main function is to fine tune the glands and smooth muscles (those in the walls of organs and blood vessels) of the body. During times of stress such as perceived impending danger, the autonomic nervous system diverts blood from the intestines and digestive organs to the skeletal muscles — in the so-called “fight or flight” response. The effects of this response are constantly exaggerated by laymen who lack an adequate understanding of it — most notably by gun writ-ers eager to impress their readers.

Interestingly, the human body can get along quite well without major parts of the autonomic nervous system. During my professional life as a surgeon, myself and colleagues removed parts of thousands of vagus nerves (mostly in treating peptic ulcer disease) -- thus depriving the patient of the major part of the parasympathetic half of the autonomic nervous system. We also removed many ganglia from the sympathetic half of the auto-nomic nervous system, in treating such things as profusely excess sweating and various problems caused by spasm of the arteries. I am unaware of any evidence that these operations produced any significant effect on the future capacity of these patients to react appropriately in times of impending danger.

Unfortunately, the pelvis shot fallacy is common. This fallacy, along with other misinformation, is promoted constantly by at least one gun writer who is widely published in the popular gun press. Because of this, I regularly debunk this fallacy by including some of the above rationale in my presentations to law enforcement firearm instructor groups.”


....

Yet another example of someone who doesn't know what he's talking about, trying to pretend that he does.  There have been numerous instances of people limping into triage under their own power with those fractures and if they would have been a situation that warranted it, they certainly would have been still able to pull a trigger.

...

@Molon

Thanks for your generous responses.

I wonder what your favorite carry load in 9mm is.

This is the 3rd time this has been posted. Let's see if people actually read it.

Good read and thank you

Dog in fight vs fight in dog?

This is true.  In med school, the anatomy prof passed out Life Saver candies to illustrate the point.  He had us all try to bite a single crack—not surprisingly—nobody was able to, in a class of 261 people.  That’s called blunt force trauma.

But, bullets typically act as a hole punch or drill, which then results in bleeding, or, if a major vein is hit, a shock wave could theoretically propagate from it, but I have never seen data proving this.  Blunt trauma is always different than penetrating trauma.  I learned my GSW trauma care from Dr. Fackler, along with 90% of the trauma surgeons in this country.  Periodically, some self-anointed “genius” comes along with “shock waves devitalizing tissues.”  It was in the Journal of Trauma years ago.  Any bullet hole in an extremity got a 3” area cut away & covered in a skin graft;  all of the patients lived, none died from sepsis nor lost limbs.

The rebuttal from Dr. Fackler rightfully pointed out that these patients, all healthy, military age males (20-somethings) managed with local wound care & no wide debriedment nor grafting would have also survived—with less scarring.  Cutting away tissue that might die isn’t recommended.

I learned decades ago not to “trust the science” & some medical studies are the equivalent of “People magazine” yet still get published.

Is the old school Mozambique drill still relevant? … i.e., 2x into the upper thoracic cavity + 1x into the cranium.

Effective, or merely aspirational?  

This is a drill that I practice often. And if the assailant is still standing somehow, a second shot to the head will put them down for ever. I don't care what you're shooting, flat tip, HP, RN, .380, 9mm, 10mm, 2 in the chest and 2 in the head will put anyone down. If they are wearing armor, well, a face shot is the way.

Going back to my days in the pit with a pugil stick: Kill the head, the body dies.

Mozambique and zipper drills are still very relevant.

I suspected so,  .. but was curious if today’s handgunners still practiced the drill. Back in the day  it was a huge drill (‘80s-early ‘90s), especially among IDPA practitioners.

Pistol ammo is generally weak sauce.

That's why you have 6-20 shots in a carry gun, and maybe a reload or two.

FIGURES LIE, AND LIARS FIGURE . Shot placement is always the most important aspect of stopping 2 or 4 legged varmints. If the all time favorite handgun round in Alaska for bear protection is the 10 mm ,im sure it can also be very effective on big men that are 1/3 the weight and bulk of Brown bears . A double tap of full power 10 mm is hard to argue with.  

The ammo used in any caliber is different depending on whether the possible target is a bear or a man.

I carry heavy wide nosed swc in .38, .357, 45 acp, and .45 colt often when I'm not worried about bear.

https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/relatedvideo?q=trooper+mark+coates+shooting&mid=4716F0EAAE5B82B188874716F0EAAE5B82B18887

Corporal Mark Coates shot a 265 pound suspect multiple times in the torso with a 357 mag and the guy lived after killing Corporal Coates with a 22LR.  

It was at point blank range while fighting.  


I could be wrong, but I believe he ran his wheel gun dry before being killed.  Fat guy suspect took numerous hits and just didn't stop.  You can watch the video above but its not easy to watch.  Viewer discretion advised.

ETA- they interview the suspect in the above video.

This.

It's why 9mm is king of the defensive pistol calibers.  A large quantity of good enough holes is superior to a small quantity of holes.  More ammo is more better.

People "have 6-20 shots in a carry gun" because it's not a flintlock pistol.

That is tough to watch.

Not to stir shit up, but (in my opinion) the .40 S&W like the 180 Federal HST are the best of both worlds.  Capacity 15 Vs. 17 (40 vs 9mm capacity) AND excellent terminal expansion & penetration.

That said, ALL Handgun rounds (9mm, .40, .45, 10mm, .357) are weak sauce compared to a rifle / shotgun rounds.

Bigger_Hammer

same criteria you would use in any case  -- reliable in your gun.  adequate penetration.   shoot until the threat goes down.

there is no magic bullet  read up about the Barrett Robbins shooting.  former NFL tackle 325 lbs vs three Miami cops in a bar bathroom

-------------------------

Miami Beach Det. Reveals Details About Run-In With Ex-NFL Star

September 24, 2012 / 11:29 PM / CBS Miami

https://www.cbsnews.com/miami/news/miami-beach-det-reveals-details-about-run-in-with-ex-nfl-star/

MIAMI BEACH (CBSMiami) --  For a while, Barret Robbins was well on his way to live a life full of fame and fortune. The 6'3", 320-pound former NFL star was set to play in the Super Bowl in 2003. However, he never got on the field.

Instead, a series of run-ins with drugs and cops eventually landed him in jail.

Now, Robbins is known as inmate number M56276 at the Dade Correctional Institute, a state run prison, in Florida City, where he has been for the past year and a half.

The reason for his stay in prison can be traced back to January 15, 2005 when Robbins shot at Miami Beach Det. Mike Muley in a struggle that nearly killed him at the Playwright Irish Pub on the 1200 block of Washington Avenue.

CBS4's Gary Nelson recently sat down with Det. Muley in his first televised interview and asked: "You shot him at darn near point blank range?"

Muley, " Yes. "

Nelson: "In the chest? "

Muley, "Yes, sir. " And he said what?

"Now, I'm going to kill you," Muley said recalling Robbins' words.

Det. Muley described the life and death struggle that he and two other cops had with a man who appeared to be a raging bull - Barret Robbins.

Robbins, a Houston native, was once the starting center for the Oakland Raiders and expected to play in the Super Bowl against Tampa Bay in 2003. He disappeared days before the big game.

"I ended up losing my mind and I got to Mexico and was in Mexico missing the Super Bowl," Robbins said in a taped deposition.

His NFL career soon collapsed. While his Oakland Raiders lost the game to Tampa Bay, Robbins' mind had been clouded by drugs and alcohol and when the effects wore off he didn't think the game had been played yet.

Robbins fumbled his career and family away, never having met a drink or illegal drug he didn't like.

"The first time I was arrested was in Austin, Texas," Robbins said in a deposition.

More arrests would follow and eventually Robbins found himself on South Beach in January of 2005. Police were responding to emergency calls about a commercial building burglary.

He barged into the Playwright Irish Pub, pushed past the cook and manager and headed to the office upstairs. Police found him hiding in a women's room.

When he stood up, he matched the description exactly. He was a big guy, a very big guy.

At 6'3", 320 pounds, Robbins lit into Officer Colin Pfrogner, a motorcycle cop.

"He turned very quickly, charged officer Pfrogner, grabbing him, beating him, driving him down the wall," Muley said.

Into the wall with such force that it cracked the officer's motorcycle helmet; the beating continued.

"We were trying to get him off him. We were hitting him, kicking him, screaming at him trying to get him to stop and he didn't," Muley said.

When Pfrogner was beaten unconscious, Robbins turned to Officer Mark Schoenfeld "and picked him up and slammed him on the ground," Muley said.

Schoenfeld received a broken shoulder, busted teeth, was knocked out. Then, Robbins went at Muley.

"Grabs me by the face with his hand, as he charged at me, and smashes me into the wall," Muley said. "I had my firearm out, I pointed it at him. He was grabbing my forearms, holding my forearms, trying to pull it away. And I just started firing the gun."

He fired five times. Three slugs hit the hallway and office walls, two hit Robbins.

"He didn't fall down. I was kind of surprised. He just kind of bent over, put his elbows on his knees, and told me he was gonna kill me," Muley said.

"You have shot him twice, once through the heart, and what happens?" Gary Nelson asked.

"He didn't fall down like I thought he would," Muley said adding that Robbins continued to threaten him saying, "Now, I'm going to kill you."

Robbins knocked the cop's gun away and knocked the cop out cold. Robbins collapsed and incredibly survived the shot to the heart.

Robbins plead bi-polar disorder. In the end, three counts of attempted murder were bargained down to a stint in a treatment program and probation.

Police were livid about that, and even more livid when Robbins filed this civil rights lawsuit against them, claiming they used "excessive force" and that he was the victim of an "unwarranted assault and battery."

Robbins described the events this way: "I remember just running into them and pushing them and getting shot."

The lawsuit was a loser, and so was Robbins, finally sentenced to prison after repeatedly violating probation.

It's a confrontation Det. Muley will never forget. "Knowing that there was nothing you could do to stop him, nothing you could do to stop him. Not even shoot him. It didn't stop him."

Robbins is scheduled to be released form a state prison in Miami-Dade in September. He declined to be interviewed for this report. His attorney said that Robbins plans to move on and live his life in peace.

------------------------------------------------

We have another thread where dummies are basically insisting that 5.56 is good for Elephant hunting.

So a .22lr sub should stop an NFL Linebacker, no problem.

My woods carry for bear is Underwood 200 grain hard cast cherry ,my main 10 mm round for all else is my handload of 180 grain XTP over Longshot at 1350 fps from a Glock 20 with a KKM 6 inch barrel , Glock 20SF factory barrel ,S&W 1006, springfield Omega 6 inch ported barrel . Both rounds function flawlessly in all pistols.

Any idea what velocity that 200grn Underwood HC ammo gets in a stock 6.2” Glock 40?

I work in orthopedics, and much like the highly variable response people have to being shot, orthopedic injuries are in the same bucket. People that have a totally shattered displaced unstable ankle hiking several miles back to a car before driving to the ER, and people who have small essentially inconsequential fractures insisting they are unable to walk.

It is human nature to want a definitive answer. Like xxx bullet at xxx velocity hitting xxx location will absolutely result in incapacitation in yyy seconds.

Unfortunately humans or animals in general simply don’t work that way. It is folly to point to a particular incident of someone hit with a particular bullet or caliber and claim any guarantee the out come would change with a different caliber or bullet.  Put another way this is simply a mathematical equation that contains too many variables to solve definitively

Isn't .357 a bit powerful to use swc on two legged threats? IIRC, they send 158gr bullets out at about 1250 fps.

@03RN

I saw the part with the suspect saying where he was shot. I looks like only two of the shots were life threatening. I wonder if they missed organs and just went through fat.

I think the officer had either 145gr Silvertips or some kind of 125gr hollow point. Now that I think of it, I'm not 100% sure the officer had .357 mag loads rather than .38 loads.

I don't believe in overkill and it's my primary practice load.

@@03RN

I worded my previous post incorrectly. I meant to ask if the .357 is too powerful to use swc bullets rather than some kind of hollow point. IIRC, there are one or two hollow point bullets in .357 mag that penetrate deeply if you believe most of them don't penetrate enough.

This ^^

According to that one study,

70% of everyone shot with anything.22 and up in the torso area. Gives up after the first round. Regardless of where on the torso they got hit.
The more odd instances of people "needing" multiple rounds to stop the ? "Whatever they are doing"..has no average. Drugged up evil fucks have taken 10+ before dropping out. Others less.. ?

As common sense would dictate. You want the top 6-8-10 on average penetration in whatever cartridge you choose. Expansion is good but penetration is better. Both even better.

I also load up xtps and 147gr hst to 1275fps that I'm carrying right now in my 2.75" m66 that performs really well.

@03RN

Thanks.

Impressive velocity out of a 2.75" barrel.

I guess 22" in water is about 18" in gel.

I'm guessing the XTPs would penetrate even deeper.

After discovering Lehigh Extreme Defender +P solid copper rounds I have full confidence it will stop a man. Carrying all this in IWB for EDC is very lightweight and minimal printing for an office setting.

The ballistic tests sold me on this round for my Glock 42.

Back in the revolver days, most state police agencies issued magnum ammo.  Can’t say that is what was used, but IIRC, of southern agencies, only the Virginia State Police issued .38 Special revolvers and ammo.

"You pays your money, and you takes your chances."  There is no sure thing.

The swat team guys that I used to train Escrima with in St. Louis had an interesting tale one Saturday morning class (after pulling a night shift).

They were called to a hotel for a barricaded suspect with a hostage. Suspect was an ex-pro football player, 6'4" 320ish lbs. He had been partying all night with a hooker and various and assorted recreational pharmaceuticals, became violent with her and was armed with a machete.
Most of the team was stacked on a balcony in the next room, preparing to make entry, the story teller was one of two in the hallway between the room and the elevator, a third was in the opposite end of the hallway in the stairwell behind a partially opened door.

Bad guy left the room, yelling expletives and swinging the now bloody machete, charging towards the elevator. Officer was armed with a twelve gage pump shotgun loaded with 00 Buck. He fired five times hitting the bad guy in the chest, center mass, five times.

The guy stopped yelling but kept coming. The officer's sixth and last shot before he ran empty hit the guy in the neck, shattering his spine and almost decapitating him. He fell, literally (I know the definition ) at the officer's feet. The bloody machete was laying on the floor with the middle of the blade laying alongside the officer's right boot.
The second team member drew his pistol and froze, but could describe the whole thing in detail, including being able to see light shining through the bad guys chest after the fourth shot.

Not surprisingly, the guy with the shotgun took his hand to hand and blade training a lot more seriously after that, as did the other team guys.
His thoughts of using an empty shotgun (or less) to parry and block a machete, wielded by a "zombie" were what kept him sharp.

Most would agree that 12 gage 00 Buck is a proven manstopper.

All I can say is…

Attached File

@SC4eyes

I didn't know 00 buckshot penetrates completely though a man of that size.

Hang up a hog and shoot it five times in the same spot, in the heart/lung area, with a twelve g. 00 buck.
I know one round of 20g. #6 fired at a yard from the muzzle, put a hole through my cousins chest, just under the collarbone, that you could push a golf ball through.

IIRC it was in 1990 give or take a year, someone may be able to find documentation.

Doesn’t matter how big or small your target is…pelvic bowl will put them down and then you can move on to head and chest rounds. Bonus points if you shoot the perp in the dick.

Holy shit, a real life Cocaine bear.

I've heard similar stories, 5th to 50th hand, from back in the 80s and early 90s, about criminals on PCP. Cops emptied their pistols and shot the guy 87 times and he kept coming type of thing. Usually ended with the so called lesson being that 9mm was not adequate.  

Perhaps a few are true, but most probably aren't, or are highly embellished. Fiction can be fun.

A rifled Brenneke KO sure as shit will though.