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Posted: 9/29/2022 11:43:45 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: .32ACP is the closest analog you’re going to get. Physics does not allow a significantly more powerful cartridge to fit into a .380 envelope and/or operating system. Even the same power as 380 with .32 caliber bullets would be an interesting improvement. |
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Posted: 9/29/2022 1:11:20 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Even the same power as 380 with .32 caliber bullets would be an interesting improvement. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: .32ACP is the closest analog you’re going to get. Physics does not allow a significantly more powerful cartridge to fit into a .380 envelope and/or operating system. Even the same power as 380 with .32 caliber bullets would be an interesting improvement. It wasn't very interesting. It's called the .32 NAA. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.32_NAA There's also a .25 NAA. |
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Posted: 9/29/2022 5:23:15 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It wasn't very interesting. It's called the .32 NAA. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.32_NAA There's also a .25 NAA. True. The .32 NAA doesn't give you increased capacity though. |
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Posted: 9/29/2022 7:28:02 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Even the same power as 380 with .32 caliber bullets would be an interesting improvement. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: .32ACP is the closest analog you’re going to get. Physics does not allow a significantly more powerful cartridge to fit into a .380 envelope and/or operating system. Even the same power as 380 with .32 caliber bullets would be an interesting improvement. Yes it would. Brassfetcher figured out the optimal load: 85gr XTP @ 1025fps from a 2.75" barrel. Expands ~0.45" and penetrates 12"+ This is what 30SC should have been for hicap pocket pistol use.  32NAA Hornady 85gr XTP vs. Ballistic Gelatin |
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Posted: 9/30/2022 1:23:00 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is what 30SC should have been for hicap pocket pistol use. ] Sure, but that doesn’t seem to be what it was made for. I mean, the .308 is what the .30Carbine should have been for sniper rifles. |
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Posted: 9/30/2022 1:35:33 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There is a company making a 1911 in .30 SC. OP, how many threads are you going to start on a round you don't like? I said a non-boutique company. I think it's Wilson Combat or Nighthawk that makes them. |
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Posted: 9/30/2022 2:36:49 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sure, but that doesn’t seem to be what it was made for. I mean, the .308 is what the .30Carbine should have been for sniper rifles. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: This is what 30SC should have been for hicap pocket pistol use. ] Sure, but that doesn’t seem to be what it was made for. I mean, the .308 is what the .30Carbine should have been for sniper rifles. It's what it should have been made for - a .380 replacement for optimal pocket pistol performance. A LCP Max would hold 12-14+1 while being a bit thinner, while staying light enough to drop in a pocket. Trying to make a 9mm replacement - especially now with the advent of so many micro highcap 9mms - is a much less logical niche. |
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Posted: 9/30/2022 4:29:42 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's what it should have been made for - a .380 replacement for optimal pocket pistol performance. A LCP Max would hold 12-14+1 while being a bit thinner, while staying light enough to drop in a pocket. Trying to make a 9mm replacement - especially now with the advent of so many micro highcap 9mms - is a much less logical niche. I, too, would like to see modern .32ACP guns, to use as a fun silencer host. |
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Posted: 9/30/2022 9:13:58 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's what it should have been made for - a .380 replacement for optimal pocket pistol performance. A LCP Max would hold 12-14+1 while being a bit thinner, while staying light enough to drop in a pocket. Trying to make a 9mm replacement - especially now with the advent of so many micro highcap 9mms - is a much less logical niche. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: This is what 30SC should have been for hicap pocket pistol use.] Sure, but that doesn’t seem to be what it was made for. I mean, the .308 is what the .30Carbine should have been for sniper rifles. It's what it should have been made for - a .380 replacement for optimal pocket pistol performance. A LCP Max would hold 12-14+1 while being a bit thinner, while staying light enough to drop in a pocket. Trying to make a 9mm replacement - especially now with the advent of so many micro highcap 9mms - is a much less logical niche. It's what people have been clamoring for since .327 Magnum was introduced - that but w/o a rim. They came close enough. If you want a higher cap pocket pistol, you can do a double-stack .32. The 9x19mm pocket pistol craze is cramming as many rounds as possible into the smallest package the engineers can. .30 SC does that better b/c it's a smaller diameter to begin w/. |
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Posted: 9/30/2022 9:39:27 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I, too, would like to see modern .32ACP guns, to use as a fun silencer host. https://www.beretta.com/en-us/beretta-3032-tomcat-covert/ 
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Posted: 9/30/2022 10:09:00 AM EDT
[#11]
I haven’t looked at all the ballistics but experience shows you have to push that 30-32 caliber to pretty high speeds to come close to the 9mm, otherwise you just have something similar to the .380 acp but at a smaller diameter. 327 Federal is a potent round but it nears .357 mag in blast and recoil when loaded to its max effectiveness, which only puts it in 9mm +p or mild .357 mag territory. The .32 h&r was much more manageable but it only was as powerful as a 38 special, you just get one extra round. 30 super carry will probably meet the same fate, a few rounds extra capacity won’t matter
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Posted: 9/30/2022 5:40:32 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes it would. Brassfetcher figured out the optimal load: 85gr XTP @ 1025fps from a 2.75" barrel. Expands ~0.45" and penetrates 12"+ This is what 30SC should have been for hicap pocket pistol use.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQfAOO3SU7QQuote HistoryQuoted: Yes it would. Brassfetcher figured out the optimal load: 85gr XTP @ 1025fps from a 2.75" barrel. Expands ~0.45" and penetrates 12"+ This is what 30SC should have been for hicap pocket pistol use. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQfAOO3SU7QYeah, this is exactly what I'm talking about. I'd love if this existed in a .32 diameter cartridge. The .32 NAA is unfortunately necked down, and of course not well supported by gun + ammo manufactures. Quoted: It's what people have been clamoring for since .327 Magnum was introduced - that but w/o a rim. They came close enough. If you want a higher cap pocket pistol, you can do a double-stack .32. Nah, .32 isn't powerful enough to expand reliably while hitting penetration targets at the same time. .380 is barely powerful enough for that. That's the missing niche here: capacity advantage of .32 while still hitting bare minimum gel performance you get with .380 and maintaining the shootability of .380 out of a small pocket pistol. And if any of those criteria can be not just met, but exceeded - well that's just icing on the cake. Quoted: The 9x19mm pocket pistol craze is cramming as many rounds as possible into the smallest package the engineers can. .30 SC does that better b/c it's a smaller diameter to begin w/. Yes, but increasing capacity is much more important when you started with a lower capacity to begin with. The micro 9s are so high capacity now that it's a little redundant. I wouldn't complain about 2-3 extra rounds in my p365, but am I willing to buy a new gun and commit to a new, more expensive cartridge for that? Nah, 10 is good enough. But if I had an LCP II, going from just 6 to 7 rounds while maintaining power and shootability looks more attractive. Especially because the price gap between 380 and 30SC is much smaller. |
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Posted: 9/30/2022 6:28:23 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah, this is exactly what I'm talking about. I'd love if this existed in a .32 diameter cartridge. The .32 NAA is unfortunately necked down, and of course not well supported by gun + ammo manufactures. Nah, .32 isn't powerful enough to expand reliably while hitting penetration targets at the same time. .380 is barely powerful enough for that. That's the missing niche here: capacity advantage of .32 while still hitting bare minimum gel performance you get with .380 and maintaining the shootability of .380 out of a small pocket pistol. And if any of those criteria can be not just met, but exceeded - well that's just icing on the cake. Yes, but increasing capacity is much more important when you started with a lower capacity to begin with. The micro 9s are so high capacity now that it's a little redundant. I wouldn't complain about 2-3 extra rounds in my p365, but am I willing to buy a new gun and commit to a new, more expensive cartridge for that? Nah, 10 is good enough. But if I had an LCP II, going from just 6 to 7 rounds while maintaining power and shootability looks more attractive. Especially because the price gap between 380 and 30SC is much smaller. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Yes it would. Brassfetcher figured out the optimal load: 85gr XTP @ 1025fps from a 2.75" barrel. Expands ~0.45" and penetrates 12"+ This is what 30SC should have been for hicap pocket pistol use. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQfAOO3SU7QYeah, this is exactly what I'm talking about. I'd love if this existed in a .32 diameter cartridge. The .32 NAA is unfortunately necked down, and of course not well supported by gun + ammo manufactures. Quoted: It's what people have been clamoring for since .327 Magnum was introduced - that but w/o a rim. They came close enough. If you want a higher cap pocket pistol, you can do a double-stack .32. Nah, .32 isn't powerful enough to expand reliably while hitting penetration targets at the same time. .380 is barely powerful enough for that. That's the missing niche here: capacity advantage of .32 while still hitting bare minimum gel performance you get with .380 and maintaining the shootability of .380 out of a small pocket pistol. And if any of those criteria can be not just met, but exceeded - well that's just icing on the cake. Quoted: The 9x19mm pocket pistol craze is cramming as many rounds as possible into the smallest package the engineers can. .30 SC does that better b/c it's a smaller diameter to begin w/. Yes, but increasing capacity is much more important when you started with a lower capacity to begin with. The micro 9s are so high capacity now that it's a little redundant. I wouldn't complain about 2-3 extra rounds in my p365, but am I willing to buy a new gun and commit to a new, more expensive cartridge for that? Nah, 10 is good enough. But if I had an LCP II, going from just 6 to 7 rounds while maintaining power and shootability looks more attractive. Especially because the price gap between 380 and 30SC is much smaller. That's why Ruger brought out the LCP Max. You can always download .30 SC, the problem is there won't be reliable hollowpoints at reduced velocities. Maybe Lyman has a mold and you can get just the right hardness. I expect the folks at Federal looked long & hard at a .32 ACP Super, and decided against it, and went for more power in the .30 SC instead. |
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Posted: 9/30/2022 7:09:41 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's what people have been clamoring for since .327 Magnum was introduced - that but w/o a rim. They came close enough. If you want a higher cap pocket pistol, you can do a double-stack .32. The 9x19mm pocket pistol craze is cramming as many rounds as possible into the smallest package the engineers can. .30 SC does that better b/c it's a smaller diameter to begin w/. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: This is what 30SC should have been for hicap pocket pistol use.] Sure, but that doesn’t seem to be what it was made for. I mean, the .308 is what the .30Carbine should have been for sniper rifles. It's what it should have been made for - a .380 replacement for optimal pocket pistol performance. A LCP Max would hold 12-14+1 while being a bit thinner, while staying light enough to drop in a pocket. Trying to make a 9mm replacement - especially now with the advent of so many micro highcap 9mms - is a much less logical niche. It's what people have been clamoring for since .327 Magnum was introduced - that but w/o a rim. They came close enough. If you want a higher cap pocket pistol, you can do a double-stack .32. The 9x19mm pocket pistol craze is cramming as many rounds as possible into the smallest package the engineers can. .30 SC does that better b/c it's a smaller diameter to begin w/. The problem with .32 is that its Rimmed, and is vulnerable to 'Rim Lock' even in single stack mags. A high cap pocket pistol would be extra vulnerable to this phenomenon. .32 is also a hundred year old cartridge typically fired in weak, direct blowback actions. So we would never see a major manuafacturer develop the ".32 +p+" thats needed to replicate .32NAA ballistics. The problem with 30 SC as it is currently designed is that it can only work in 9x19 sized pistols, whose weight and size are really beyond 'pocket pistol' especially if high caps worth of ammo are also added. A LCP Max is 10.6ozs whereas a P365 is 17.6oz, not factoring in heavier ammo as well. Ultimately what the market needed was a .380 replacement, not a 9x19 replacement. |
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Posted: 9/30/2022 7:43:57 PM EDT
[#15]
Federal needs the FBI to formally test it, and have it pass. Then manufacturer's will make guns for it and LEO's will look at it for a backup gun, then adopt the "backup" guns as the main gun as well.
But if Federal can't get the FBI to pass it's testing then it will die. It has the same advantages and disadvantages compared to the 9x19 that the 9mm has compared to the 45 ACP; so no reason not to use it but it has to get that test certificate from the FBI before any LEO will look at using it. |
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Posted: 9/30/2022 10:56:18 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The problem with .32 is that its Rimmed, and is vulnerable to 'Rim Lock' even in single stack mags. A high cap pocket pistol would be extra vulnerable to this phenomenon. .32 is also a hundred year old cartridge typically fired in weak, direct blowback actions. So we would never see a major manuafacturer develop the ".32 +p+" thats needed to replicate .32NAA ballistics. The problem with 30 SC as it is currently designed is that it can only work in 9x19 sized pistols, whose weight and size are really beyond 'pocket pistol' especially if high caps worth of ammo are also added. A LCP Max is 10.6ozs whereas a P365 is 17.6oz, not factoring in heavier ammo as well. Ultimately what the market needed was a .380 replacement, not a 9x19 replacement. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: This is what 30SC should have been for hicap pocket pistol use.] Sure, but that doesn’t seem to be what it was made for. I mean, the .308 is what the .30Carbine should have been for sniper rifles. It's what it should have been made for - a .380 replacement for optimal pocket pistol performance. A LCP Max would hold 12-14+1 while being a bit thinner, while staying light enough to drop in a pocket. Trying to make a 9mm replacement - especially now with the advent of so many micro highcap 9mms - is a much less logical niche. It's what people have been clamoring for since .327 Magnum was introduced - that but w/o a rim. They came close enough. If you want a higher cap pocket pistol, you can do a double-stack .32. The 9x19mm pocket pistol craze is cramming as many rounds as possible into the smallest package the engineers can. .30 SC does that better b/c it's a smaller diameter to begin w/. The problem with .32 is that its Rimmed, and is vulnerable to 'Rim Lock' even in single stack mags. A high cap pocket pistol would be extra vulnerable to this phenomenon. .32 is also a hundred year old cartridge typically fired in weak, direct blowback actions. So we would never see a major manuafacturer develop the ".32 +p+" thats needed to replicate .32NAA ballistics. The problem with 30 SC as it is currently designed is that it can only work in 9x19 sized pistols, whose weight and size are really beyond 'pocket pistol' especially if high caps worth of ammo are also added. A LCP Max is 10.6ozs whereas a P365 is 17.6oz, not factoring in heavier ammo as well. Ultimately what the market needed was a .380 replacement, not a 9x19 replacement. Semi-rimmed, and my P32 runs fine. So did the Czech Skorpion. Federal took a very careful look at the market, and decided you were wrong, and they were right. Time will tell who is correct. |
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Posted: 10/1/2022 1:24:02 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The problem with .32 is that its Rimmed, and is vulnerable to 'Rim Lock' even in single stack mags. A high cap pocket pistol would be extra vulnerable to this phenomenon. .32 is also a hundred year old cartridge typically fired in weak, direct blowback actions. So we would never see a major manuafacturer develop the ".32 +p+" thats needed to replicate .32NAA ballistics. The problem with 30 SC as it is currently designed is that it can only work in 9x19 sized pistols, whose weight and size are really beyond 'pocket pistol' especially if high caps worth of ammo are also added. A LCP Max is 10.6ozs whereas a P365 is 17.6oz, not factoring in heavier ammo as well. Ultimately what the market needed was a .380 replacement, not a 9x19 replacement. The things you are asking for are mutually exclusive. .380 is a weak cartridge designed for blowback actions. If you want a .32 version, you are looking for a weak cartridge designed for blowback actions. If you want .32 +p+, then you are looking for 30SC, because it will require a locked-breach firearm. If they made it fit in a .380 magazine, then it would fit in a .32ACP chamber and energetically disassemble the gun. Its not a .380 replacement, wasn’t designed to be, and never will be. That cartridge already exists, in at least 2 varieties, and is incredibly unpopular. Another thing to consider is, a G42 with twice as much capacity gains a couple ounces loaded. Does that matter to consumers of pocket guns? I dunno. I don’t see a lot of companies scrambling in that direction, though. OTOH, people making the conscious decision to carry a 9mm-sized gun are doing so for capacity, power, or shootability reasons, so perhaps some of them will embrace a narrower cartridge with a similar power level. |
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Posted: 10/1/2022 1:42:05 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Semi-rimmed, and my P32 runs fine. So did the Czech Skorpion. Federal took a very careful look at the market, and decided you were wrong, and they were right. Time will tell who is correct. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: This is what 30SC should have been for hicap pocket pistol use.] Sure, but that doesn’t seem to be what it was made for. I mean, the .308 is what the .30Carbine should have been for sniper rifles. It's what it should have been made for - a .380 replacement for optimal pocket pistol performance. A LCP Max would hold 12-14+1 while being a bit thinner, while staying light enough to drop in a pocket. Trying to make a 9mm replacement - especially now with the advent of so many micro highcap 9mms - is a much less logical niche. It's what people have been clamoring for since .327 Magnum was introduced - that but w/o a rim. They came close enough. If you want a higher cap pocket pistol, you can do a double-stack .32. The 9x19mm pocket pistol craze is cramming as many rounds as possible into the smallest package the engineers can. .30 SC does that better b/c it's a smaller diameter to begin w/. The problem with .32 is that its Rimmed, and is vulnerable to 'Rim Lock' even in single stack mags. A high cap pocket pistol would be extra vulnerable to this phenomenon. .32 is also a hundred year old cartridge typically fired in weak, direct blowback actions. So we would never see a major manuafacturer develop the ".32 +p+" thats needed to replicate .32NAA ballistics. The problem with 30 SC as it is currently designed is that it can only work in 9x19 sized pistols, whose weight and size are really beyond 'pocket pistol' especially if high caps worth of ammo are also added. A LCP Max is 10.6ozs whereas a P365 is 17.6oz, not factoring in heavier ammo as well. Ultimately what the market needed was a .380 replacement, not a 9x19 replacement. Semi-rimmed, and my P32 runs fine. So did the Czech Skorpion. Federal took a very careful look at the market, and decided you were wrong, and they were right. Time will tell who is correct. 9mm is basically more dominant in the 2020's firearms market than the Iphone is in the cellphone market. It's astounding anyone would bet on competing against it. 9mm has been re-selected by the FBI, and has effectively killed off .40, .357 sig, and most of the non 1911 .45 market. Even moreso in the post P365 era, where 9x19 high cap pistols are now tiny and hold a ton of rounds. Also in an era where we are only a few elections away from a high cap mag ban, which would instantly kill the capacity boosting rationale for 30SC. All with a caliber that a) expands a bit less b) has equal recoil c) costs more than 9x19. .... By comparison, everyone -Likes the size and easy carryabilty of a .380 pocket pistol -Thinks .380 is a marginal at best caliber The market would have broken out the champagne for a LCP sized pistol that could pass the FBI expansion/penetration test, and cast .380 down deader than .40 the second such a round was devised. Even moreso if such a round also boosted magazine capacity. |
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Posted: 10/1/2022 1:51:49 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 9mm is basically more dominant in the 2020's firearms market than the Iphone is in the cellphone market. It's astounding anyone would bet on competing against it. 9mm has been re-selected by the FBI, and has effectively killed off .40, .357 sig, and most of the non 1911 .45 market. Even moreso in the post P365 era, where 9x19 high cap pistols are now tiny and hold a ton of rounds. Also in an era where we are only a few elections away from a high cap mag ban, which would instantly kill the capacity boosting rationale for 30SC. All with a caliber that a) expands a bit less b) has equal recoil c) costs more than 9x19. .... By comparison, everyone -Likes the size and easy carryabilty of a .380 pocket pistol -Thinks .380 is a marginal at best caliber The market would have broken out the champagne for a LCP sized pistol that could pass the FBI expansion/penetration test, and cast .380 down deader than .40 the second such a round was devised. Even moreso if such a round also boosted magazine capacity. That same ban will kill tons of the new high cap small guns. |
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Posted: 10/1/2022 1:56:44 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The things you are asking for are mutually exclusive. .380 is a weak cartridge designed for blowback actions. If you want a .32 version, you are looking for a weak cartridge designed for blowback actions. If you want .32 +p+, then you are looking for 30SC, because it will require a locked-breach firearm. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The problem with .32 is that its Rimmed, and is vulnerable to 'Rim Lock' even in single stack mags. A high cap pocket pistol would be extra vulnerable to this phenomenon. .32 is also a hundred year old cartridge typically fired in weak, direct blowback actions. So we would never see a major manuafacturer develop the ".32 +p+" thats needed to replicate .32NAA ballistics. The problem with 30 SC as it is currently designed is that it can only work in 9x19 sized pistols, whose weight and size are really beyond 'pocket pistol' especially if high caps worth of ammo are also added. A LCP Max is 10.6ozs whereas a P365 is 17.6oz, not factoring in heavier ammo as well. Ultimately what the market needed was a .380 replacement, not a 9x19 replacement. The things you are asking for are mutually exclusive. .380 is a weak cartridge designed for blowback actions. If you want a .32 version, you are looking for a weak cartridge designed for blowback actions. If you want .32 +p+, then you are looking for 30SC, because it will require a locked-breach firearm. All the modern LCP sized pistols are locked breach actions actually, and can fire fairly powerful ammo. LCP/Kahr P380/G42/P3AT/Bodyguard etc are all locked breach, and be safely fired with ".380+P" ammo made by Underwood for the last 10+ years .380 +p (90gr @ 1050fps+ from LCP) is sightly hotter in power to the proposed ".32 +p+" which is 85gr @ 1025fps from a LCP. The issue with .380+p is the 90gr .355 projectile lacks the sectional density to expand and penetrate to 12"+. Whereas the 85gr .312 XTP has shown it has the sectional density and controlled expansion to do so well. This would allow keeping the standard .75"-.85" thick slide / ~10oz format of a .380 pocket pistol, but with a round that can actually pass FBI specs. Going to the 9mm power level of the .30 SC dooms the pistol to .90-1" slides and 16-18oz pistol weights. |
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Posted: 10/1/2022 1:57:35 AM EDT
[#21]
I think the post 365 era is perfect for this caliber. 9mm guns have always been bigger than they needed to be but compact guns will always be a good choice for higher capacity. We are also seeing a huge growth of high end full size pistols outside of competition use which is fairly new. 2011's and Big CZ's are all the rage and when you're outside the competition ruleset a smaller caliber makes a lot of sense.
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Posted: 10/1/2022 2:01:56 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That same ban will kill tons of the new high cap small guns. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: 9mm is basically more dominant in the 2020's firearms market than the Iphone is in the cellphone market. It's astounding anyone would bet on competing against it. 9mm has been re-selected by the FBI, and has effectively killed off .40, .357 sig, and most of the non 1911 .45 market. Even moreso in the post P365 era, where 9x19 high cap pistols are now tiny and hold a ton of rounds. Also in an era where we are only a few elections away from a high cap mag ban, which would instantly kill the capacity boosting rationale for 30SC. All with a caliber that a) expands a bit less b) has equal recoil c) costs more than 9x19. .... By comparison, everyone -Likes the size and easy carryabilty of a .380 pocket pistol -Thinks .380 is a marginal at best caliber The market would have broken out the champagne for a LCP sized pistol that could pass the FBI expansion/penetration test, and cast .380 down deader than .40 the second such a round was devised. Even moreso if such a round also boosted magazine capacity. That same ban will kill tons of the new high cap small guns. Not exactly, as the standard flush fir mag for the 9mm P365 / G43X / Shield Plus is 10+1. The Hellcat is 11+1, but reverting to 10+1 wouldnt kill it. So the 9x19 and those pistols would stay very relevant. A 10+1 P365 in 30SC would not remain relevant compared to a 10+1 P365 in 9mm of the same size. |
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Posted: 10/1/2022 11:44:35 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: All the modern LCP sized pistols are locked breach actions actually, and can fire fairly powerful ammo. LCP/Kahr P380/G42/P3AT/Bodyguard etc are all locked breach, and be safely fired with ".380+P" ammo made by Underwood for the last 10+ years .380 +p (90gr @ 1050fps+ from LCP) is sightly hotter in power to the proposed ".32 +p+" which is 85gr @ 1025fps from a LCP. The issue with .380+p is the 90gr .355 projectile lacks the sectional density to expand and penetrate to 12"+. Whereas the 85gr .312 XTP has shown it has the sectional density and controlled expansion to do so well. This would allow keeping the standard .75"-.85" thick slide / ~10oz format of a .380 pocket pistol, but with a round that can actually pass FBI specs. Going to the 9mm power level of the .30 SC dooms the pistol to .90-1" slides and 16-18oz pistol weights. Those are good points. BTW, XTP from a .380 will expand and penetrate deeper than 12” in gel. |
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Posted: 10/1/2022 11:51:59 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: All the modern LCP sized pistols are locked breach actions actually, and can fire fairly powerful ammo. LCP/Kahr P380/G42/P3AT/Bodyguard etc are all locked breach, and be safely fired with ".380+P" ammo made by Underwood for the last 10+ years .380 +p (90gr @ 1050fps+ from LCP) is sightly hotter in power to the proposed ".32 +p+" which is 85gr @ 1025fps from a LCP. The issue with .380+p is the 90gr .355 projectile lacks the sectional density to expand and penetrate to 12"+. Whereas the 85gr .312 XTP has shown it has the sectional density and controlled expansion to do so well. This would allow keeping the standard .75"-.85" thick slide / ~10oz format of a .380 pocket pistol, but with a round that can actually pass FBI specs. Going to the 9mm power level of the .30 SC dooms the pistol to .90-1" slides and 16-18oz pistol weights. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: The problem with .32 is that its Rimmed, and is vulnerable to 'Rim Lock' even in single stack mags. A high cap pocket pistol would be extra vulnerable to this phenomenon. .32 is also a hundred year old cartridge typically fired in weak, direct blowback actions. So we would never see a major manuafacturer develop the ".32 +p+" thats needed to replicate .32NAA ballistics. The problem with 30 SC as it is currently designed is that it can only work in 9x19 sized pistols, whose weight and size are really beyond 'pocket pistol' especially if high caps worth of ammo are also added. A LCP Max is 10.6ozs whereas a P365 is 17.6oz, not factoring in heavier ammo as well. Ultimately what the market needed was a .380 replacement, not a 9x19 replacement. The things you are asking for are mutually exclusive. .380 is a weak cartridge designed for blowback actions. If you want a .32 version, you are looking for a weak cartridge designed for blowback actions. If you want .32 +p+, then you are looking for 30SC, because it will require a locked-breach firearm. All the modern LCP sized pistols are locked breach actions actually, and can fire fairly powerful ammo. LCP/Kahr P380/G42/P3AT/Bodyguard etc are all locked breach, and be safely fired with ".380+P" ammo made by Underwood for the last 10+ years .380 +p (90gr @ 1050fps+ from LCP) is sightly hotter in power to the proposed ".32 +p+" which is 85gr @ 1025fps from a LCP. The issue with .380+p is the 90gr .355 projectile lacks the sectional density to expand and penetrate to 12"+. Whereas the 85gr .312 XTP has shown it has the sectional density and controlled expansion to do so well. This would allow keeping the standard .75"-.85" thick slide / ~10oz format of a .380 pocket pistol, but with a round that can actually pass FBI specs. Going to the 9mm power level of the .30 SC dooms the pistol to .90-1" slides and 16-18oz pistol weights. Or 14 oz & .875": https://www.keltecweapons.com/firearm/pistols/p15/  And a .30 SC slide can be made thinner than a 9x19mm or .380 ACP slide, due to the smaller diameter of the round. If you want to run 85 grn .32 XTPs, run em from a .32 NAA bbl on a Ruger LCP Max. You just have to make the bbl, most of it is lathe work. |
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Posted: 10/1/2022 2:08:58 PM EDT
[#25]
The LCP Max is nice but still isn't quite the niche I'm talking about. It's slightly on the chunky side for pocket carry. They had to widen the grip compred to the LCP II in order to fit the double stack portion of the mag in there. It still works as a pocket gun, but it could be a bit smaller. The hypothetical .32 round we're discussing could shave that bit off the grip and maintain the power and capacity of the LCP Max - and probably even increase both of those. I'm with spydercomonkey - I think the market would have been ecstatic if that's what the 30SC was. As it stands, the round got a pretty ho-hum reaction.
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Posted: 10/1/2022 4:33:17 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I said a non-boutique company. I think it's Wilson Combat or Nighthawk that makes them. I recently handled a Nighthawk in .30 SC. Beautifully made and smooth as warm butter. A full size 1911 full of tiny .32 cal. cartridges just did not compute.... |
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Posted: 10/1/2022 6:42:22 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Or 14 oz & .875": https://www.keltecweapons.com/firearm/pistols/p15/ https://media.keltecweapons.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/P15-right_DSC06006-768x593.jpg And a .30 SC slide can be made thinner than a 9x19mm or .380 ACP slide, due to the smaller diameter of the round. If you want to run 85 grn .32 XTPs, run em from a .32 NAA bbl on a Ruger LCP Max. You just have to make the bbl, most of it is lathe work. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The problem with .32 is that its Rimmed, and is vulnerable to 'Rim Lock' even in single stack mags. A high cap pocket pistol would be extra vulnerable to this phenomenon. .32 is also a hundred year old cartridge typically fired in weak, direct blowback actions. So we would never see a major manuafacturer develop the ".32 +p+" thats needed to replicate .32NAA ballistics. The problem with 30 SC as it is currently designed is that it can only work in 9x19 sized pistols, whose weight and size are really beyond 'pocket pistol' especially if high caps worth of ammo are also added. A LCP Max is 10.6ozs whereas a P365 is 17.6oz, not factoring in heavier ammo as well. Ultimately what the market needed was a .380 replacement, not a 9x19 replacement. The things you are asking for are mutually exclusive. .380 is a weak cartridge designed for blowback actions. If you want a .32 version, you are looking for a weak cartridge designed for blowback actions. If you want .32 +p+, then you are looking for 30SC, because it will require a locked-breach firearm. All the modern LCP sized pistols are locked breach actions actually, and can fire fairly powerful ammo. LCP/Kahr P380/G42/P3AT/Bodyguard etc are all locked breach, and be safely fired with ".380+P" ammo made by Underwood for the last 10+ years .380 +p (90gr @ 1050fps+ from LCP) is sightly hotter in power to the proposed ".32 +p+" which is 85gr @ 1025fps from a LCP. The issue with .380+p is the 90gr .355 projectile lacks the sectional density to expand and penetrate to 12"+. Whereas the 85gr .312 XTP has shown it has the sectional density and controlled expansion to do so well. This would allow keeping the standard .75"-.85" thick slide / ~10oz format of a .380 pocket pistol, but with a round that can actually pass FBI specs. Going to the 9mm power level of the .30 SC dooms the pistol to .90-1" slides and 16-18oz pistol weights. Or 14 oz & .875": https://www.keltecweapons.com/firearm/pistols/p15/ https://media.keltecweapons.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/P15-right_DSC06006-768x593.jpg And a .30 SC slide can be made thinner than a 9x19mm or .380 ACP slide, due to the smaller diameter of the round. If you want to run 85 grn .32 XTPs, run em from a .32 NAA bbl on a Ruger LCP Max. You just have to make the bbl, most of it is lathe work. KelTec is awesome and innovative. Sadly few of other firearms companies are as bold in their designs, or weight efficient. If a major manufacturer comes out with a 14oz .30SC high cap of comparable .875" thickness, where the gun has been purpose built around 30SC in scale, then that would indeed be awesome and have a lot of potential. Along similar vein, a .875" thick pocket pistol along the lines of the Rohrbaugh R9, that straddles the line size and weight wise between the LCP .380 and the Kahr PM9, would also be extremely compelling. My wallet and body is ready. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rohrbaugh_R9 However if we see more of what we're currently seeing - 9x19 subcompact pistols simply rechambered in .30sc without any weight or size savings - I just dont see that taking off on a large scale. |
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Posted: 10/2/2022 12:41:44 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: KelTec is awesome and innovative. Sadly few of other firearms companies are as bold in their designs, or weight efficient. If a major manufacturer comes out with a 14oz .30SC high cap of comparable .875" thickness, where the gun has been purpose built around 30SC in scale, then that would indeed be awesome and have a lot of potential. Along similar vein, a .875" thick pocket pistol along the lines of the Rohrbaugh R9, that straddles the line size and weight wise between the LCP .380 and the Kahr PM9, would also be extremely compelling. My wallet and body is ready. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rohrbaugh_R9 However if we see more of what we're currently seeing - 9x19 subcompact pistols simply rechambered in .30sc without any weight or size savings - I just dont see that taking off on a large scale. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The problem with .32 is that its Rimmed, and is vulnerable to 'Rim Lock' even in single stack mags. A high cap pocket pistol would be extra vulnerable to this phenomenon. .32 is also a hundred year old cartridge typically fired in weak, direct blowback actions. So we would never see a major manuafacturer develop the ".32 +p+" thats needed to replicate .32NAA ballistics. The problem with 30 SC as it is currently designed is that it can only work in 9x19 sized pistols, whose weight and size are really beyond 'pocket pistol' especially if high caps worth of ammo are also added. A LCP Max is 10.6ozs whereas a P365 is 17.6oz, not factoring in heavier ammo as well. Ultimately what the market needed was a .380 replacement, not a 9x19 replacement. The things you are asking for are mutually exclusive. .380 is a weak cartridge designed for blowback actions. If you want a .32 version, you are looking for a weak cartridge designed for blowback actions. If you want .32 +p+, then you are looking for 30SC, because it will require a locked-breach firearm. All the modern LCP sized pistols are locked breach actions actually, and can fire fairly powerful ammo. LCP/Kahr P380/G42/P3AT/Bodyguard etc are all locked breach, and be safely fired with ".380+P" ammo made by Underwood for the last 10+ years .380 +p (90gr @ 1050fps+ from LCP) is sightly hotter in power to the proposed ".32 +p+" which is 85gr @ 1025fps from a LCP. The issue with .380+p is the 90gr .355 projectile lacks the sectional density to expand and penetrate to 12"+. Whereas the 85gr .312 XTP has shown it has the sectional density and controlled expansion to do so well. This would allow keeping the standard .75"-.85" thick slide / ~10oz format of a .380 pocket pistol, but with a round that can actually pass FBI specs. Going to the 9mm power level of the .30 SC dooms the pistol to .90-1" slides and 16-18oz pistol weights. Or 14 oz & .875": https://www.keltecweapons.com/firearm/pistols/p15/ https://media.keltecweapons.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/P15-right_DSC06006-768x593.jpg And a .30 SC slide can be made thinner than a 9x19mm or .380 ACP slide, due to the smaller diameter of the round. If you want to run 85 grn .32 XTPs, run em from a .32 NAA bbl on a Ruger LCP Max. You just have to make the bbl, most of it is lathe work. KelTec is awesome and innovative. Sadly few of other firearms companies are as bold in their designs, or weight efficient. If a major manufacturer comes out with a 14oz .30SC high cap of comparable .875" thickness, where the gun has been purpose built around 30SC in scale, then that would indeed be awesome and have a lot of potential. Along similar vein, a .875" thick pocket pistol along the lines of the Rohrbaugh R9, that straddles the line size and weight wise between the LCP .380 and the Kahr PM9, would also be extremely compelling. My wallet and body is ready. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rohrbaugh_R9 However if we see more of what we're currently seeing - 9x19 subcompact pistols simply rechambered in .30sc without any weight or size savings - I just dont see that taking off on a large scale. Well, KelTec is a major manufacturer, George just likes the screws, but at this point they have everything available except revolvers, and I don't really want to think about a revolver that George Kellgren would make. |
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Posted: 10/2/2022 1:10:18 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well, KelTec is a major manufacturer, George just likes the screws, but at this point they have everything available except revolvers, and I don't really want to think about a revolver that George Kellgren would make. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The problem with .32 is that its Rimmed, and is vulnerable to 'Rim Lock' even in single stack mags. A high cap pocket pistol would be extra vulnerable to this phenomenon. .32 is also a hundred year old cartridge typically fired in weak, direct blowback actions. So we would never see a major manuafacturer develop the ".32 +p+" thats needed to replicate .32NAA ballistics. The problem with 30 SC as it is currently designed is that it can only work in 9x19 sized pistols, whose weight and size are really beyond 'pocket pistol' especially if high caps worth of ammo are also added. A LCP Max is 10.6ozs whereas a P365 is 17.6oz, not factoring in heavier ammo as well. Ultimately what the market needed was a .380 replacement, not a 9x19 replacement. The things you are asking for are mutually exclusive. .380 is a weak cartridge designed for blowback actions. If you want a .32 version, you are looking for a weak cartridge designed for blowback actions. If you want .32 +p+, then you are looking for 30SC, because it will require a locked-breach firearm. All the modern LCP sized pistols are locked breach actions actually, and can fire fairly powerful ammo. LCP/Kahr P380/G42/P3AT/Bodyguard etc are all locked breach, and be safely fired with ".380+P" ammo made by Underwood for the last 10+ years .380 +p (90gr @ 1050fps+ from LCP) is sightly hotter in power to the proposed ".32 +p+" which is 85gr @ 1025fps from a LCP. The issue with .380+p is the 90gr .355 projectile lacks the sectional density to expand and penetrate to 12"+. Whereas the 85gr .312 XTP has shown it has the sectional density and controlled expansion to do so well. This would allow keeping the standard .75"-.85" thick slide / ~10oz format of a .380 pocket pistol, but with a round that can actually pass FBI specs. Going to the 9mm power level of the .30 SC dooms the pistol to .90-1" slides and 16-18oz pistol weights. Or 14 oz & .875": https://www.keltecweapons.com/firearm/pistols/p15/ https://media.keltecweapons.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/P15-right_DSC06006-768x593.jpg And a .30 SC slide can be made thinner than a 9x19mm or .380 ACP slide, due to the smaller diameter of the round. If you want to run 85 grn .32 XTPs, run em from a .32 NAA bbl on a Ruger LCP Max. You just have to make the bbl, most of it is lathe work. KelTec is awesome and innovative. Sadly few of other firearms companies are as bold in their designs, or weight efficient. If a major manufacturer comes out with a 14oz .30SC high cap of comparable .875" thickness, where the gun has been purpose built around 30SC in scale, then that would indeed be awesome and have a lot of potential. Along similar vein, a .875" thick pocket pistol along the lines of the Rohrbaugh R9, that straddles the line size and weight wise between the LCP .380 and the Kahr PM9, would also be extremely compelling. My wallet and body is ready. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rohrbaugh_R9 However if we see more of what we're currently seeing - 9x19 subcompact pistols simply rechambered in .30sc without any weight or size savings - I just dont see that taking off on a large scale. Well, KelTec is a major manufacturer, George just likes the screws, but at this point they have everything available except revolvers, and I don't really want to think about a revolver that George Kellgren would make. Lol, now I'm desperate for a wierdo wonderful KelTec revolver. |
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Posted: 10/2/2022 2:04:09 AM EDT
[#30]
To y'all stuck with .45 GAP, I'd be more than happy to pay 10 cents a round to take it off your hands!
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Posted: 10/2/2022 2:10:26 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: To y'all stuck with .45 GAP, I'd be more than happy to pay 10 cents a round to take it off your hands! You're not the only one w/ a M1917 revolver! I'll pay $.11/rnd! 
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Posted: 10/2/2022 2:38:40 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You're not the only one w/ a M1917 revolver! I'll pay $.11/rnd! Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: To y'all stuck with .45 GAP, I'd be more than happy to pay 10 cents a round to take it off your hands! You're not the only one w/ a M1917 revolver! I'll pay $.11/rnd! I feel like that's about what it was at the end when everyone was blowing it out. |
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Posted: 10/3/2022 11:54:47 AM EDT
[#33]
Would the 30SC have enough pressure/ gas to reliably operate an AR-15 DI action?
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Posted: 10/3/2022 12:45:44 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Would the 30SC have enough pressure/ gas to reliably operate an AR-15 DI action? Yes, the question is are the powders used clean enough, one of the issues w/ 9x19mm gas guns. You're also likely better off w/ straight blowback rather than a reverse pigtail gas tube hooked to a gas block directly in front of the chamber. |
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Posted: 10/3/2022 1:06:01 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Lol, now I'm desperate for a wierdo wonderful KelTec revolver. Underneath barrel, physics defying high capacity, auto-ejector, but feels like it will fall apart in your hands |
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Posted: 10/3/2022 1:13:09 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: From federal website. If this is true and it’s giving equal our better penetration and energy with acceptable expansion and it’s also giving 25% capacity in double stack mags with less muzzle flip… well, that’s pretty awesome for the subcompact and compact market. Heck, I’ll bet the extra pressure works great with carry comps, too. Imagine slim and compact like a G48 with shield mags except now it’s slinging 19+1 of these? Yeah, sure… I’ll stick that in my pants. FYI: Federal 147gr HST is 1000fps (326 ft-lbs) https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/132797/4F366366-1188-4327-87E2-91F2FFDECD40_jpe-2541512.JPG There is nothing there about 147 and penetration or energy. You said the 100 gr delivers more energy than a 147 gr. Only thing there is 124 grain. Its obviously going to be higher velocity with the lighter bullet but I dont see how it could deliver more energy on target. |
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Posted: 10/3/2022 1:40:39 PM EDT
[#37]
The current ammo drought might end up helping 7.65 lounger get a foothold. I know a couple people who started playing with 10mm and 40 when it was all that was left on shelves.
If federal churns enough out and it's down to boxes of .218 bee, 30sc, and 455 webly on the shelf they may be able to create a small false mini economy out if it. |
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Posted: 10/3/2022 5:25:54 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There is nothing there about 147 and penetration or energy. You said the 100 gr delivers more energy than a 147 gr. Only thing there is 124 grain. Its obviously going to be higher velocity with the lighter bullet but I dont see how it could deliver more energy on target. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: From federal website. If this is true and it’s giving equal our better penetration and energy with acceptable expansion and it’s also giving 25% capacity in double stack mags with less muzzle flip… well, that’s pretty awesome for the subcompact and compact market. Heck, I’ll bet the extra pressure works great with carry comps, too. Imagine slim and compact like a G48 with shield mags except now it’s slinging 19+1 of these? Yeah, sure… I’ll stick that in my pants. FYI: Federal 147gr HST is 1000fps (326 ft-lbs) https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/132797/4F366366-1188-4327-87E2-91F2FFDECD40_jpe-2541512.JPG There is nothing there about 147 and penetration or energy. You said the 100 gr delivers more energy than a 147 gr. Only thing there is 124 grain. Its obviously going to be higher velocity with the lighter bullet but I dont see how it could deliver more energy on target. 147gr is generally the weakest, lowest energy of the 9mm defensive loads.  Shield Plus 3.1" barrel for 30 SC:  Glock 43 3.4" 9mm 147gr = 940fps / 288 ftlbs Shield Plus 3.1" 30SC 100gr = 1156fps / 297ftlbs Shield Plus 3.1" 30SC 115gr = 1060fps / 287ftlbs |
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Posted: 10/9/2022 12:47:46 AM EDT
[#39]
There seems to be an obsession with stuffing as many cartridges as possible in a pistol magazine, and is apparently the reason behind the cartridges existence. Gaining a couple rounds mag capacity is not worth a hard to find and more expensive cartridge, with limited gun choices.
One niche that might be interesting for the cartridge ( ironically based on capacity) would be a six shot j frame, 8 shot l frame and 9 or even 10 shot n frame revolver. The limitation of the j frame ( other than being difficult for most to shoot accurately) has been the 5 shot capacity |
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Posted: 10/9/2022 1:21:24 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There seems to be an obsession with stuffing as many cartridges as possible in a pistol magazine, and is apparently the reason behind the cartridges existence. Gaining a couple rounds mag capacity is not worth a hard to find and more expensive cartridge, with limited gun choices. One niche that might be interesting for the cartridge ( ironically based on capacity) would be a six shot j frame, 8 shot l frame and 9 or even 10 shot n frame revolver. The limitation of the j frame ( other than being difficult for most to shoot accurately) has been the 5 shot capacity There are 6 shot J frames already and not many people wanted them. Arguing that it's not worth it in a semi but makes sense in a revo is bizarre to me. |
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Posted: 10/9/2022 1:30:06 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If Walther made a PDP F, or a PPS chambered in 30SC I'd be hard pressed not to pick one up. If they finally get off their duff and make a double stack PPS, a 30sc option would be great. |
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Posted: 10/9/2022 1:33:25 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I would absolutely love something like a P365X/G48/G43X sized compact that has 20-30% less recoil and holds 18-20 rounds of shit that’s basically hitting more or less like a 147gr HST. I suggested 30sc to PSA for their Dagger Mini, but they haven't even got the 9mm on the market yet so dunno. |
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Posted: 10/9/2022 2:39:15 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:. One niche that might be interesting for the cartridge ( ironically based on capacity) would be a six shot j frame, 8 shot l frame and 9 or even 10 shot n frame revolver. The limitation of the j frame ( other than being difficult for most to shoot accurately) has been the 5 shot capacity You're describing .327 Federal, designed for turning 5 shot .357's into 6 shot .327s. Sadly there was never, or was only briefly, a J-frame in that caliber. Only the LCR. |
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Posted: 10/9/2022 2:40:27 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You're describing .327 Federal, designed for turning 5 shot .357's into 6 shot .327s. Sadly there was never, or was only briefly, a J-frame in that caliber. Only the LCR. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted:. One niche that might be interesting for the cartridge ( ironically based on capacity) would be a six shot j frame, 8 shot l frame and 9 or even 10 shot n frame revolver. The limitation of the j frame ( other than being difficult for most to shoot accurately) has been the 5 shot capacity You're describing .327 Federal, designed for turning 5 shot .357's into 6 shot .327s. Sadly there was never, or was only briefly, a J-frame in that caliber. Only the LCR. They did a good amount of them as well as 32 H&R guns in limited runs for years. They don't sell well. 431 432 631 632 pretty sure there are at least one or two more. |
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Posted: 10/9/2022 5:41:02 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You're describing .327 Federal, designed for turning 5 shot .357's into 6 shot .327s. Sadly there was never, or was only briefly, a J-frame in that caliber. Only the LCR. There were at least two J-Frames, long since disco’d. The 632 snub and the 632 Carry Comp. If you find one, I’ll trade you one of my kidneys for it. (Thats a joke) |
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Posted: 10/9/2022 6:04:47 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There were at least two J-Frames, long since disco’d. The 632 snub and the 632 Carry Comp. If you find one, I’ll trade you one of my kidneys for it. (Thats a joke) https://www.gunbroker.com/item/948863903 |
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Posted: 10/12/2022 5:10:21 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistorySold before I could sell enough of my blood. |
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Posted: 10/12/2022 5:57:13 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sold before I could sell enough of my blood. Quote HistoryThe shop I used to work in stocked them. Pretty sure we had a stainless and black for the almost three years I was there. |
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Posted: 10/12/2022 8:33:09 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If Walther made a PDP F, or a PPS chambered in 30SC I'd be hard pressed not to pick one up. How about a light, handy carbine chambered in it? That would work. Like a .30 cal carbine? |
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Posted: 10/12/2022 9:23:08 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Like a .30 cal carbine? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: If Walther made a PDP F, or a PPS chambered in 30SC I'd be hard pressed not to pick one up. How about a light, handy carbine chambered in it? That would work. Like a .30 cal carbine? How about a SUB-2000? |
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