After reading this test, I am wondering if this round was judged too severely after the 1986 Miami shootout.  

9mm Silvertip Test

Are there reasons, other than the penetration under 12" that might be a reason that this round is deficient?  

Thanks!

I read an un-redacted copy (or unreleased version) of the FBI after incident report.

The Silvertip was blamed for not stopping the fight.

One factor was totally ignored.

The "bad guys" were on a very powerful substance... Adrenalin! A natural dump often referred to as fight or flight.

They were as jacked as soldiers in a firefight.

They had trained and were focused on the fight.  They literally fought to the death, never going to quit!

The example I always used when conducting training is: shoot a 200 pound deer with a high powered rifle and it is common for them to continue "flight" even with a mortal wound!  No one is surprised!

Shoot a man with a pistol and thanks to Hollywood, many expect him to be blown off his feet, out of the fight!   The movies is the worst "training films" ever... and continue to be the most well followed myths of fire fights.

Any pistol caliber is a miserable "man stopper" even though the wound might be a fatal hit.  Other than a central nervous system hit, a one shot stop for a jacked opponent is unusual. Shot placement is the key.

Remember... the FBI went to a subsonic 147 gr 9mm, while they developed the .40 S&W.  Over years both were a disappointment for a one shot stop.

The 147 gr subsonic was only used in LE for a short time as it often failed to stop as some expected, and far too long in use, the .40 S&W is rapidly being dumped by LE.

My sources for the 'behind the scene" observation relayed a story of a SEAL taking a 147 gr subsonic and it caused a devastating wound.  (the SEAL Team used of that round that was selected from commercial sources because it had the accuracy specs they wanted, not because it was a "man stopper").

As it was relayed to me by a professional colleague, from that one tragic SEAL training accident, the FBI went to the 147 gr subsonic as a replacement for the Silvertip.

How did I glean this... I am a retired Federal LEO, career long Rangemaster and Firearms instructor that had the fortune of some exceptional training opportunities both military (US and foreign) and top LEO agencies.


...and I expect someone to soon post this is BS.  Think what you will, I know what I know.

What is your preferred caliber and bullet?

.45acp (185 gr JHP)
.357 SIG
10mm (varies to purpose)
.357 magnum (125 gr JHP)

in no particular order, other than .45acp and 10mm require a large frame auto.

I always hated the .40S&W (evolving from a downloaded 10mm), and duty carried HK P7M13 until Sig came out with the .357 SIG (P229 & P239 carried) until Glock came out with the .357 SIG model.

Near the end of my career I was forced (the entire agency) to carry Glock 22 .40S&W, retiring my Glock .357 SIG kicking and screaming!!!

My first pick is the .357 SIG, but now retired I pocket carry a Sig P290 (Speer 124 gr Gold Dot) I prefer Speer 115 gr +P+ Gold Dot or equally the Winchester 127 gr +P+ Ranger T-Series but don't want to beat the P290 too much.

.357 SIG Speer 125 gr Gold Dot

Bradd_D: What are your thoughts on the good old Federal 9BPLE 115gr +p and +p+ versions?

I think BPLE had its time in the sun, but is outdone by modern rounds such as Gold Dot, HST, and Ranger. 

silvertips got blamed for everything, but the .38's performed as wors or bad.

Plus as always, it came down to multiple factors. But I firmly believe if all the officers had semi-autos and silvertips it would have turned out a LOT differently. (specifically due to being able to gain fire superiority easier)

The Silvertip 9mm in the 1980s was the technology of the era.

There have been considerable advancements in bullet design and comparing 1980s design to today's technology is apples and oranges.

What many are unaware of about the Silvertip line of the 1980s... the jacket material was specific to the caliber of the ammo.

IIRC... the Silvertip .45 acp had an aluminum jacket to aid in expansion.  


AND to bring up another ammo controversy... Winchester Black Talon ammo!

I have thousands of rounds of Black Talon. However I dumped it into GI ammo cans and trashed the boxes.

Had I known... I could get wealthy selling it if I had the boxes.  LOL

The FBI needed a scapegoat to hang the deaths of two agents and the severe wounding of 5 others on. The 9mm STHP was that goat.

Platt suffered a non-survivable wound from the STHP but no one was able to get more lead into him before he did the damage with his .223.

In the aftermath of this event the FBI choose the Win 147JHP OSM subsonic load as their issued 9mm ammo, which turned out to be one of the worst pistol defense loads, behind the FMJ and the JSP of that time. The OSM load was NEVER designed as a pistol round.

The vast majority of FBI agents, to this day, are desk jockeys, not beat cops or road deputies. Unfortunately they were outwitted and out gunned by a military trained murderer who was determined to take out as many agents as he could before he was gunned down.

That 1980's Silvertip performance is not much different from today's 9mm JHP loads


.

The thing is, the primary criteria of the FBI test is penetration and this round fails to reach the minimum depth. Really you are asking why is this round deficient while it fails the minimum criteria in the most important category.

There are certainly worse bullets.

I have an unopened case of that.

There were many other tactical problems which contributed to the death of the FBI agents in Miami.   I completely agree handguns are not reliable stoppers and I was in LE at the time of the Miami incident.   Being from Illinois I got pretty good exposure to the 9 MM pistols and ammunition used in LE.   My agency issued S&W 439 9 MM and when I hired on we were carrying WW 115 grain +P+ JHP.   This was the same basic bullet as the Silvertip but not plated silver.  My agency was concerned about over penetration causing fratricide and looked at the testing performed at the request of the FBI.  My agency decided to stick with the WW +P+ 115 grain JHP.

A key factor to penetration is energy and the +P+ 115 grain loads produce around 400 ft pounds of energy and penetrates car doors and windshields pretty well.   I shot numerous wounded deer over the years and the results with the +P+ 115 JHP were exactly the same as when I carried 125 grain JHP from a 4” model 66.  If you put a bullet in the right place it worked.

I put more faith in shot placement and tactics than I do a particular bullet.   There are many variables that come into play on how a bullet will traverse through a target.   My agency had very positive results using the WW +P+ load out of barrels as short as 3.5” and up to 10.5” 9 MM Colt sub guns.   I really liked the pistol ammo combo after WW started using flash retardant powder.   The WW 115 grain JHP chronographed at 1275 FPS out of a 3.5” and 1300 FPS out of a 4” pistol barrel.    I can’t remember the actual chronograph velocity out of the 10.5” barrel but I think it was around 1500 FPS however with this higher velocity our agency didn’t encounter under penetration.

When my Agency switched from S&W autos to Glocks many of the road personnel wanted to stick with 9 MM.  The Department adopted the Glock 22/23 and 40 caliber as a cost savings measure.   We shot all duty ammo for qualification with the 9 MM but when we switched to 40 we shot a lot of FMJ as it was the same velocity as our carry 180 grain JHP.

I retired a few years ago and just in the last few months the Department transitioned from Gen 3 model 22/23 to Gen 4 model 22/23.   The contract for carry ammo went to Winchester and they are carrying the latest 180 grain bonded core JHP.  When I retired we carried Federal 180 grain HST which I like and still use if I carry a 40.

Since retiring I routinely carry a Glock 43 with Winchester white box 115 grain JHP or a Glock 42 with Hornady 90 grain XTP.   When I carry my Glock 19 it is loaded with WW +P+ 115 grain JHP.   If I hit the road or go into bad areas I usually have a 16” 5:56 carbine close by.

The Winchester SilverTip was the top of the charts back in the 80's but things have advanced a bit since then.

Agreed it was the scapegoat for the shootout.  Not a bad round, but NO handgun bullet is a magic deathray that turns out the lights instantly (unless you shoot the brain...)

Ww 115 +p+ do you mean 9bple?

Back about 1983 or 84 I got to attend a "Street Survival Seminar" held in Huntington, WV.

One of the failures of the silvertips (9MM) prior to that was a couple IL State Troopers being ambushed by a  guy on a motorcycle.  He emptied his two revolvers into the windshield of the car (aimed at the driver, who had the high beams and the spot light on the guy after stopping him on the road.  The trooper had opened the door and leaned out to exit the car when the guy got off the bike and emptied his revolvers.   The trooper wasn't hit, neither was his partner who was exiting the passenger side door.

The guy evidently expected he'd killed the Trooper as he just turned to go back to his bike.  They fired 21 times, hit him 15 (or maybe 17) times and he kept going to the bike.  He got on the bike and was attempting to kickstart it when he collapsed (loss of blood?).  We were told the IL State Police stopped carrying the silvertip 9MM ammo after than incident.

We were shown another picture of a guy (high on PCP) who took 33 rounds of 9MM ammo (no mention of brand/bullet weight) and was still fighting.  An IL State Trooper killed him, finally, with a 12 ga. loaded with buckshot by shooting him in the head with it.  Oh, the picture was the guy lying on the slab in the morgue.  Looked like a pincushion.

I carry (mostly) a .40 S&W P07 with 135 grain hollow points.  Sometimes I carry a 9MM with 115 grain hollow points.  I expect to shoot till the threat stops being a threat.  I carry standard mags. in the pistols in the holster but extended mags. for my back ups.

Just like animals you hunt, some drop when the bullet hits and some keep going.  Though I've found head/spine shots stop things "right now."

The shooting incident with the Biker was with the original aluminum cased WW Silvertip.  Supposedly the lube on the aluminum jacket would seap into the powder charge if the ammunition was exposed to heat.  The reports we received the lube affected the powder and reduced the velocity of the ammo.  ISP immediately pulled the WW Silvertip and issued Federal 9BP.

The ISP may have carried a +P version of the Federal 9BP but eventually signed a contract with Winchester for the 115 grain JHP +P+ which came in boxes marked  not for retail sale "Illinois State Police use only" with product code Q4174 on the box end flap.  Winchester eventually released this ammo to other agencies and marked the boxes with for Law Enforcement use only and product number Q4174.

While not the best option, the 115gr Silver tip performed far better than the .38s that were being used. If all of the agents had been using semi-auto pistols I personally think the sustained volume of fire between the multiple agents would have changed the outcome of that fight significantly. The agents armed with revolvers were slow to reload and could not produce enough fire to overwhelm their aggressors.

However, the biggest mistake made that day by the FBI agents wasn't using Silver tips or their use of revolvers. Their biggest mistake was brining handguns to a long gun fight IMO. The fight was wrapped up fairly quick once one of the agents effectively deployed a shotgun.

From my understanding the agents had access to MP5s but elected not to bring them along. An MP5 would have ended that fight extremely quick. The longer barrel of the MP5 would have given the 115gr Silver tip the penetration it needed to better perform. Also the higher volume of fire would have been overwhelming right out of the gate.

The FBI. 38 Special+P 158 gr SWCHP would have produced a different outcome if it hit where the Silvertip did that stopped inches from the heart as that load barely expands to parachute it to a stop sooner and produces consistent penetration to 17 inches and higher.

12 inches of penetration is the bare minimum and not ideal. The Silvertip barely reached that.

I’m going to sound like a heretic but I take any gel ballistic testing with a grain of salt.  I think standardized ballistic testing is a good tool to compare diffent bullet designs and cartridges on the market.  I have seen enough real world shootings to say that the 9 MM Silvertip do or don’t penetrates 12”, maybe in gel but not necessarily in humans or animals.

Who’s to say what the velocity was of the particular 9 MM Silvertip which failed to hit the heart of the felon.  How old was that Silvertip ammo, had it been baked in the Sun in Florida heat.  There is a variable on the specific lot of ammo as to how much velocity it produces.  The 459’s will produce a range of velocities from the same lot, some times as much as 25 to 50 FPS difference.   Maybe the round which failed to penetrate struck another object prior to hitting the agressor.   Maybe that particular cartridge had lower velocity than normal.   All adds into the varability of results.

In the real world bullets can deflect off bone or break bone.  I have seen bullets take the path of least resistent and have bizarre wound tracks.   I carried 6 Shot 4” model 65 & 66 in the 70’s.  A 9 MM 439 or 459 was preferable to me to any 6 shot revolver.   The 38 Special 158 grain Lead Hollow Point used in the FBI shooting has low energy and was many times shot out of 2” or 1.8” barrels.   I have personally seen 158 grain LHP fail just as badly as a 9 MM JHP.

I like the newer bonded core defensive bullets over traditional cup and core bullets.   How can a 115 grain JHP in 9 MM be effective in 1985 when you consider the amount of useage and not be as effective today.  Any handgun or any firearm is going to have failure to stop immediately, same as hunting bullets.  The physical state of the target has a huge effect on results.   I’d wager to bet the highest performing HST in any caliber in gel test has had a failure to immediately stop an aggressor.   Handguns are used because that is what is available when the ballon goes up.  Today you see a lot more rifles if LE has time to deploy them.

Every shooting is unique, shooting individuals at the exact same spot in the body doesn’t always mean the bullet track/path will be the same.  Adds to part of why one bullet is effective the next might not be.

Once again hyper-focusing on one narrow aspect of worst case penetration angle skips out on the bigger picture, fire superiority.  The other guy you quoted also mentions that as well. 

Using 9mm FMJ would have done the same things as your ammo suggestion.  
Using .357 cast loads might have as well... 
Using all semi auto's would have made fire superiority easier to gain due to higher ammo count out o the gate in a fight that basically lasted seconds. 

One of the benefits of having studied the fight a lot, and having been shot at a ton, is having a different perspective than a lot of people have. Shoot first, run out of ammo last is the distilled end result that is pushed by some of the more famous police that pushed the state of the art in combative handgun use. Anything outside of that is more luck than planning. 

That's pretty weak penetration, not even 12" deep... I think the FBI had the right idea with 10mm which is far more powerful and has much better penetration. I like 180 grain hollow points which reach 18" deep. While the FBI prefers ammo to go 12-18" deep, I prefer something closer to the 18" mark. Better to have more penetration than not enough. But yeah the Miami Shootout was a mess. Better training and better equipment would have helped a lot. 

I agree. Fire superiority achieved early in the fight would have changed the outcome. One on one a semi auto pistol  is no match for a semi auto rifle but six semi auto pistols in close quarters should win the fight quickly IMO.

I agree. I never said that I didn't regarding fire superiority. That wasn't my point. My point was penetration. I haven't been a fan of hollow points for a few months now and and no longer carry them. Penetration is key. 12 isn't enough.

Ask this guy. He was lit up with over 25 shots of .40 S&W that failed to penetrate his chest to vitals. It took a shot to the leg and one to the head to put him down.

Atlantic City Shootout

Bringing handguns to a rifle fight was the biggest cause of that catastrophe.

Although, I'm sure we all welcome all efforts to improve ammo, especially handgun ammo, which is marginal at best.

The Agents had MP5's and Rem 870's in the cars (trunks). I don't think they expected to catch the bad guys in the act and maybe were not prepared mentally and tactically. Things unraveled from there. A brief car chase and a crash that caused some Agents to loose their handguns in the car then having to grab their ankle carried snub-nose against a Mini14. Another Agent, who was a master shot, lost his eye glasses. No one had time get better armed and had to go into the fight as is. Numerous tactical lessons were learned. This incident was heavily reviewed during my Academy.

The famed Silver Tip hit was a great (lucky) shot hitting Platt or Maddox (don't remember) as he was climbing out the window of their now disabled car. The bullet went through his forearm then into the chest cavity. It was a fatal hit. I don't think it would be reasonable to ask for more from a handgun round. Suit wearing FBI guys will not carry big heavy 44mag revolvers and would have ended up in the trunk with the shotty and MP5.

If only one of the Agents had a long gun in the car with them at the time!!

An MP5 would have been a game changer in that fight.

The MP5 in 10mm was and is a game changer.

Frankly, for bad guys not wearing armor...it is a spectacular weapon.  It creates large, straight, effective wound chanels and it does so quickly from a very compact package.  

I would gladly carry a 10mm MP 5 if issued one today.

There is a redacted report on the FBI website that includes a list of every firearm carried by the agents involved in the fight or who arrived later.  For the agents involved in the shooting, there were two shotguns.  One was in the back seat of supervisor McNeill's car and not employed.

The other shotgun was carried by Agent Mireles, who was wounded before he could fire, but able to end the fight.  I cannot remember where Mireles' shotgun was stored, but he had access to it early in the fight.

From what I recall from reading the report, the other cars involved in the stakeout (but not involved in the shooting) each had a either a shotgun, MP5 or M16.  SWAT-trained agents had access to the full-auto guns.  Regular agents were limited to shotguns.  Had any other combination of five cars been at the shooting, the agents would have had heavier firepower.

Silver tips are velocity sensitive. They perform much better and closer to the new expected specifications for expansion and penetration when pushed a bit harder. Part of the appeal for silvertips is that at a time when many guns were finicky about reliability with hollow points. Silvertips were almost flawless in a large number of guns. A jacket hard enough to not get hung up on a chamber burr or unpolished ramp. Just enough curve at the tip to help keep stove pipes to a minimum and decent penetration.
If Winchester/Olin would shit can the 147's and just go with 115's & 124's and get the muzzle energy in the 430 range I think it would be a home run.

Isnt that already done with 124 ranger t and ranger b/pdx

Silver tips have an excellent reputation in the 357 magnum but not as well in 9mm and 38.

Not a bad round in those calibers but there are better choices now

But it still is an excellent round in 357 even today

A pretty sound analysis.

We are able to look at the incident in the modern light.   Many here are forgetting that this occurred when a very large percentage of the nation was still carrying  .38s in cities and .357s on the highways.   Many city cops were even still carrying 158 round nose ammo by command directive.

The 9mm phase was just ramping up.

I didn’t get my first pistol until the early nineties.  The 9mm Silvertips were still very popular.   I carried them in. S&W 469.   In those days I shot them in wet phone books (hey it was that era for that too).    2/3 of my Silvertips did not open.   .45 acp 185 XTPs also failed those tests but about 1/3 failure rate.

The new bonded hollow points are amazingly consistent and the old federal hydrashocks were decent.  Not quite the Reliability but maybe 1 or 2 in ten plugged up.

In the end you’re still only getting pistol energy.   Not always the magic show stopper.    I am happy to spend $20-25 on a good bonded hollow point for carry use.    Beats a silvertip from 35 years ago!