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Posted: 9/24/2017 12:58:56 AM EDT
[#1]
Because Yeager.
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Posted: 9/24/2017 1:05:30 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Because Yeager. |
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Posted: 9/24/2017 1:06:51 AM EDT
[#3]
Just because hunters generally agree on calibers doesn't mean anything.
9mm can absolutely kill a whitetail in one hit. Shot placement and range are the 2 most important factors, assuming your lead delivery system and ammo are G2G. Most "hunters" around here seem to think you need at least .30-06 M2 AP to kill grizzly bears. 
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Posted: 9/24/2017 1:17:42 AM EDT
[#4]
I have seen deer hit in the heart and you would have thought it just dropped but it ran 200 yards
because he didn't know he was supposed to die so it ran until it did. most humans would panic and go into shock and die because they just know whats going on. |
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Posted: 9/24/2017 1:22:18 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The 40 sucks guy. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Because Yeager. |
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Posted: 9/24/2017 1:27:28 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Just because hunters generally agree on calibers doesn't mean anything.
9mm can absolutely kill a whitetail in one hit. Shot placement and range are the 2 most important factors, assuming your lead delivery system and ammo are G2G. Most "hunters" around here seem to think you need at least .30-06 M2 AP to kill grizzly bears. I'd guess 150gr hardcast would do that ... but will a Gold Dot or HST do that? I don't know ... do you think it would? |
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Posted: 9/24/2017 2:25:32 AM EDT
[#7]
Well with animals you want to kill it with one shot. Don't want it to run off and take forever to die, it's unethical. With people, if you shoot them and they run off, they go to a hospital. So using weaker calibers for self defense works fine. But it's better to use larger calibers for hunting to ensure that clean one shot kill. I personally carry a Glock 20 10mm for self defense and walking the woods, works great for both roles. I mean you can kill people and animals with 22's given the right shot placement. But rifles like a 308 or something are much more preferable for both humans and animals. We make compromises when carrying a handgun. Less power for more convenience. 9mm gives you more ammo capacity and faster follow up shots, and most people can conceal carry a 9mm handgun. Is a 6 shot 44 magnum revolver better, it's way more powerful, but has more recoil and less rounds. Under stress you might miss and want those extra bullets. So 9mm makes more sense for self defense and 44 magnum makes more sense for hunting.
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Posted: 9/24/2017 2:31:00 AM EDT
[#8]
Also think about position. A human target would have to be standing sideways to simulate the 'ideal' shot on a deer.
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Posted: 9/24/2017 3:44:44 AM EDT
[#9]
Carrying a handgun is a compromise between size and power.
Theoretically handguns are carried when rifles can't be. So a 9mm is big enough to kill someone and small enough to carry but doesn't reliably Kill a 200 pound person/animal in one shot. So there's no reason to compromise when hunting on size and power. Just my thoughts on it. |
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Posted: 9/24/2017 3:50:50 AM EDT
[#10]
because whitetails are harder to kill than humans.
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Posted: 9/24/2017 4:18:31 AM EDT
[#11]
Because 9x19 cannot do it all despite the internet claims that it parrots from the other parrots.
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Posted: 9/24/2017 6:11:30 AM EDT
[#12]
Because FBI, duh.
Anything smaller is too small; anything larger is too large. Caliber doesn't matter, shot placement matters. Or so say the 9mm proponents. |
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Posted: 9/24/2017 9:28:16 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Because 9x19 cannot do it all despite the internet claims that it parrots from the other parrots. |
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Posted: 9/24/2017 9:34:08 AM EDT
[#14]
Distance to target...
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Posted: 9/24/2017 9:57:02 AM EDT
[#15]
I'm going with penetration. Certain angles on a deer require more penetration and when hunting you want complete penetration.
For self defense, "over penetration" is seen as a negative as people generally want the bullet to stay in their target. I personally don't think overpenetration is a negative though. |
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Posted: 9/24/2017 10:15:35 AM EDT
[#16]
Usually the argument about 9mm over 10mm deals with ccw situations. Typically you want the shortest lightest ccw that has an adequate barrel length and capacity to just get the job done. If you feel more comfortable carrying a pistol with a 3" barrel all day everyday 9 is a more reasonable answer. Your not losing much in ballistics. The 10mmer's, and magnum pistol rounds work better out of longer barrels and have very little gain in sub compact form, it's not worth the trade in capacity. Also deer don't have lawyers attached to them, unless maybe your not in season.
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Posted: 9/24/2017 10:25:59 AM EDT
[#17]
I think it's range and accuracy. A self defense designed 9mm handgun with a ~3-inch barrel is sufficient for self defense because the ranges for most self defense scenarios are short range (less than 10 yards) and you are going to shoot until the threat stops. With deer hunting the ranges are usually longer and the target more agile so follow up shots are much harder.
That said I would think 9mm with heavy (ie ~147 gr and similar) quality bullet from a long barreled 9mm say >=5-inch handgun with quality sights or optics would be just fine for deer hunting assuming the hunter can hit with their chosen handgun and ammo combination. It would certainly be on the bottom side of what is acceptable IMO (though not legal in many states) and thus would require the hunter to make sure they can put that bullet right where it is needed since the 9mm has no extra energy to make of for poor shot placement. The lightest cartridges I have personally hunted with so far has been 410 slugs and 10mm Auto. 410 slugs worked fine but a shotgun (with decent sights) it is easier to shoot accurately than a 9mm handgun and 410 slugs still has significantly more energy than 9mm. I did take two deer with a 10mm revolver last year. It worked fine too. This year its overkill year with a 450 Bushmaster. |
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Posted: 9/24/2017 10:35:56 AM EDT
[#18]
I have shot several with 9mm works fine.
A good 147 gr flat point does good on small hogs. I have had 357 fail on large hogs. Know your target and your round and you will know when to and not to take your shot. |
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Posted: 9/24/2017 10:40:47 AM EDT
[#19]
-9mm is a compromise for handguns. No need to compromise when hunting.
-9mm IS plenty powerful to take a deer, but not efficiently -A more powerful round makes a more ethical hunt -2 legged predators have "OFIBS" (oh f*^% I've been shot) psychological factor... Deer don't |
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Posted: 9/24/2017 11:50:06 AM EDT
[#20]
Any round capable of penetration to a heart, brain etc. can kill a deer with one shot. That includes a .22lr with perfect shot placement.
Perfect shot placement can not be relied upon so larger calibers are more reliable at making bigger holes than their bullet diameter and more penetration due to velocity. A human gets shot and is (hurt) and paralyzed by a shot even if it does not hit anything major, in theory. A deer gets shot and runs till they die, the pain and paralysis is not really existent or at least not as recognizable in a wild animal like it is in a human. An animal will run away till their body gives out while a human runs till their brain tells them their body has given out. Big difference! The only way to be sure to drop a deer with one shot is to actually kill it and bigger, deeper holes are more likely to do that. |
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Posted: 9/24/2017 1:07:07 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Distance to target... ill wager self defense shootings happen at under 30 feet, white tails are generally farther away thatn that.... on top of 9mm being a pretty non aerodymnmic roundit bleeds power pretty quick.ifyou shoot your deer at 100 yards you better aim high |
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Posted: 9/24/2017 2:06:58 PM EDT
[#22]
9mm from a handgun does not meet my states rules for hunting with a handgun (they have an energy threshold you must meet). But, it's legal to hunt with a 9mm rifle, as long as it is a "centerfire cartridge firing expanding bullets"... I can shoot the same cartridge from two types of guns. One would be legal, the other would not. Silliness.
This also means I am legal to hunt bison with a .218 Bee or .22 Hornet... the law, as written, sucks. I could probably hit their energy threshold if I was willing to load up to "9mm Major" velocities. 9BPLE is almost there. |
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Posted: 9/24/2017 9:19:40 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Because FBI, duh. Anything smaller is too small; anything larger is too large. Caliber doesn't matter, shot placement matters. Or so say the 9mm proponents. |
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Posted: 9/24/2017 9:23:22 PM EDT
[#24]
differences in typical engagement distances
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Posted: 9/24/2017 9:45:21 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Also think about position. A human target would have to be standing sideways to simulate the 'ideal' shot on a deer. Look at our anatomy. If we moved on all 4, it would be harder to make a heart shot too. |
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Posted: 9/24/2017 9:56:36 PM EDT
[#26]
Deer are a lot better at running away after you shoot them and you are trying to eat them.
I shot a deer someone else had wounded. I shot it once dead on with a 45 acp +p 230 grain jhp. I found the bullet later and it was stopped by a rib. The deer took off, but I ended up sort above it on a ledge and shot it twice more as it was moving around in brush below me. Those rounds really tore it up inside but didn't stop it. One round travelled nearly the length of the deer from top to bottom. I then ran into another guy who was helping the guy who shot it. I gave that guy my 45 and said I was going back to my truck for my 308. Before I got back he had found it, the deer was still walking around in the dark all shot up, it had been hit with a 30-06 also. He shot it in the head and killed it as I was coming back with a rifle. |
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Posted: 9/25/2017 7:35:25 AM EDT
[#27]
Deer don't stand still and let you shoot them 5 or 6 times. At least not any I ever shot.
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Posted: 9/25/2017 7:45:26 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Parrots parroting again. Which is sad. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Because FBI, duh. Anything smaller is too small; anything larger is too large. Caliber doesn't matter, shot placement matters. Or so say the 9mm proponents. |
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Posted: 9/25/2017 8:02:14 AM EDT
[#29]
I have personnaly seen a buck take a 300wm through a shoulder, lung, blow the heart to shreads and exit leaving a baseball size hole run untill it bleeds out then run another 200 yards through the thickest texas bush.
We only found it due to the damage the animal did to the ground everytime it fell, then got up and ran some more. Whitetail deer are have weetard strength and desire to live. Sure we all have that grandpappy or uncle who only hunted with a 22 and one shot dropped everything he zapped. But reality is bigger the damn bullet the better when it comes to wild animals. |
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Posted: 9/25/2017 8:10:15 AM EDT
[#30]
9mm is not big enough for humans. Now its a 9 vs 45 thread.
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Posted: 9/25/2017 8:22:37 AM EDT
[#31]
People often mistake hunting and self defense in regards to both animals and people. They also underestimate how tough animals are compared to people.
If deer were dangerous and attacked people nobody would be carrying the calibers they do they would all pick bigger badder stuff. Getting to sneak up and take a well placed shot(ideally) is different than being surprised and having to stop the threat immediately. Just like if I knew I had people coming after me there’s no way the only gun I had would be a 9mm. It would be a rifle but that’s just not practical. Even a pistol caliber carbine would be a step up over a standard pistol. 9mm 40 and even 380 pistols are the most popular choices because they fill the need of being concealable and still somewhat effective. Nothing more nothing less. |
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Posted: 9/25/2017 8:25:14 AM EDT
[#32]
It is unethical to make a dumb animal suffer needlessly when hunting. Put it down cleanly or go home.
When you have to defend yourself from a scumbag human who is intent on robbing/raping/killing you, it is not considered unethical to make him suffer. Go ahead, let him suffer. Wallow in it. ETA: Today's society considers it more ethical to wound a bad guy, making him suffer, than to kill him. |
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Posted: 9/25/2017 8:33:05 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Distance to target... |
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Posted: 9/25/2017 9:23:16 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
because whitetails are harder to kill than humans. Deer runs away. Guy on meth/bath salts/psychotic may use that time to continue aggressive action. |
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Posted: 9/25/2017 10:01:15 AM EDT
[#35]
Rumor has it that a 124gr gdhp fired from a Springfield XDS at 15 yards will go through a medium size doe chest cavity and lodge itself just under the far sides skin/coat. The exapanded bullet will look picture perfect the rumor goes.
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Posted: 9/25/2017 10:13:38 AM EDT
[#36]
Different goals. Hunters want ethical, fast kills from a single bullet. The primary purpose of a handgun for self defense is to stop an attacker while balancing size and weight so you can actually carry it. Doesn't have to kill I'm off shot, just has to stop them before they bring you harm.
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Posted: 9/25/2017 10:52:25 AM EDT
[#37]
Because 9mm is a compromise between portability / concealment and energy. It's not selected because it's *the* most effective.
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Posted: 9/25/2017 10:53:50 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Carrying a handgun is a compromise between size and power. Theoretically handguns are carried when rifles can't be. So a 9mm is big enough to kill someone and small enough to carry but doesn't reliably Kill a 200 pound person/animal in one shot. So there's no reason to compromise when hunting on size and power. Just my thoughts on it. Handguns for self defense are a compromise. You are carrying a tool to protect yourself, not harvest food. When hunting you are not just running to the store to buy groceries. You have more options for the size and power of the weapon you carry to do the job at hand. Also, in a self defense situation the ranges are very short. 7yds or less on average. When hunting your range can vary anywhere from point blank to several hundred yards. Then there is the whole point of carrying for self defense vs hunting. Your intent is not to kill when carrying for self defense. Just stop the threat. When hunting you are trying to kill as fast as possible to avoid the animal getting away or dying a slow painful death. |
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Posted: 9/25/2017 1:18:45 PM EDT
[#39]
Here's a hunters point of view.
We care more about humanely taking game than we do about humanely taking a miscreant. I feel bad if I cause an animal I'm taking to endure pain unnecessarily. So, I'm going to use a cartridge that has a good potential to kill the animal quickly and cleanly. People, I don't care so much. If I were stranded & hungry, and a 9mm handgun was all I had, I'd use it. But if I'm going hunting I'm reaching into the safe and get a rifle with enough accuracy and power to do the job quick and clean. |
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Posted: 9/25/2017 1:51:01 PM EDT
[#40]
If self defense had a mantra of killing with one shot, then no one would carry 9mm. That's not the point of 9mm.
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Posted: 9/25/2017 2:40:36 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Rumor has it that a 124gr gdhp fired from a Springfield XDS at 15 yards will go through a medium size doe chest cavity and lodge itself just under the far sides skin/coat. The exapanded bullet will look picture perfect the rumor goes. Id like to see if there are any rumors of said load hitting a leg or shoulder bone too. (As in I would like to know how it did. I can imagine someone shooting so close they know they will not hit it) |
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Posted: 9/25/2017 3:25:25 PM EDT
[#42]
What about from a carbine? 9mm gain velocity from the longer barrel and the ability to shoot them accurately with longer sight radius or better optics improves greatly. Assuming your using a quality bullet that can handle the higher velocities I would think this would be interesting.
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Posted: 9/26/2017 12:13:12 AM EDT
[#43]
Thank you everyone for the informative answers. Here is what I learned:
1. Due to their anatomy, deer vitals are generally several inches deeper in their body than humans' vitals are. 2. Deer are hard to kill and run like an athetic man on crack when shot. Humans usually have a psychological response (as well as vitals not being as deep usually) so less penetration is required. 3. If you have a good broadside shot, a good 9mm bullet will penetrate a deer's vitals enough for a kill 4. Recoil, capacity and concealability/convenience are part of why 9mm is the 'default' caliber for conceal carry. Thanks! |
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Posted: 9/26/2017 1:04:05 AM EDT
[#44]
A 9mm in a hollow point will penetrate about the same as a 10mm or a .357 Magnum in a hollow point. 12 to 18 inches. In a hard cast flat point, no matter what the weight, they'll both penetrate both sides.
The reason hunters say different is the same reason hunters say a .223 is a pea shooter and inadequate for deer and you need a .308 or 30.06 and the same reason people think a .45 ACP will spin you like a top and knock you down in one shot. Shot placement is everything. A .308 to a deer's ass is worse than a 9mm to deer's vitals. |
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Posted: 9/26/2017 1:08:24 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
People often mistake hunting and self defense in regards to both animals and people. They also underestimate how tough animals are compared to people. If deer were dangerous and attacked people nobody would be carrying the calibers they do they would all pick bigger badder stuff. Getting to sneak up and take a well placed shot(ideally) is different than being surprised and having to stop the threat immediately. Just like if I knew I had people coming after me there’s no way the only gun I had would be a 9mm. It would be a rifle but that’s just not practical. Even a pistol caliber carbine would be a step up over a standard pistol. 9mm 40 and even 380 pistols are the most popular choices because they fill the need of being concealable and still somewhat effective. Nothing more nothing less. |
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Posted: 9/26/2017 1:41:24 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
But Hey, that one old fart guide completely lucked out with a 9 mm on a bear, and therefore, we have mouthbreathers now saying 9 mm is suitable for bear. See cause, that one time, the guy didn't fucking die completely. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
People often mistake hunting and self defense in regards to both animals and people. They also underestimate how tough animals are compared to people. If deer were dangerous and attacked people nobody would be carrying the calibers they do they would all pick bigger badder stuff. Getting to sneak up and take a well placed shot(ideally) is different than being surprised and having to stop the threat immediately. Just like if I knew I had people coming after me there’s no way the only gun I had would be a 9mm. It would be a rifle but that’s just not practical. Even a pistol caliber carbine would be a step up over a standard pistol. 9mm 40 and even 380 pistols are the most popular choices because they fill the need of being concealable and still somewhat effective. Nothing more nothing less. |
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Posted: 9/26/2017 1:32:11 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A 9mm in a hollow point will penetrate about the same as a 10mm or a .357 Magnum in a hollow point. 12 to 18 inches. In a hard cast flat point, no matter what the weight, they'll both penetrate both sides. The reason hunters say different is the same reason hunters say a .223 is a pea shooter and inadequate for deer and you need a .308 or 30.06 and the same reason people think a .45 ACP will spin you like a top and knock you down in one shot. Shot placement is everything. A .308 to a deer's ass is worse than a 9mm to deer's vitals. But after reading all the respons3s a good 9mm does seem to penetrate enough. |
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Posted: 9/26/2017 7:06:52 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Based on gel tests I have seen, a 180-200gr 10mm or a 158gr bonded .357 penetrates more than a 9mm in general. They penetrate around 18-20in vs 14-15in. I also think they are more likely to break bones with the extra momentum... not that thise are 12ga slugs or anything. But after reading all the respons3s a good 9mm does seem to penetrate enough. |
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Posted: 9/29/2017 10:35:41 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Both have about 10 seconds of oxygen which can be used for voluntary action after a lethal hit (both lungs/heart). Deer runs away. Guy on meth/bath salts/psychotic may use that time to continue aggressive action. |
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Posted: 9/29/2017 10:37:45 PM EDT
[#50]
Deer anatomy and human anatomy are different. This places different constraints on shot placement and bullet characteristics.
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