I just noticed today that Underwood added some lighter/faster defender bullets. These are the defender bullets.

9mm 65gr @1800fps
10mm 100gr @1825fps

Previously, the options were only:

9mm 90gr @1475fps
10mm 115gr @1700fps


My prediction is that the increased velocity will cause even larger wound channels. I may consider switching to the 65gr in my 9mm. I am a little more confident that the damage from the flutes would be real at 1800fps. For now, I'll still be carrying XTP in my 9mm and 10mm primarily, but we will see.

I'm just sharing out of interest. The previous poster showing hogs shot with the defender bullets in 9mm and .45 was interesting.

just got some of the 140 grain 10mm going 1500fps, very impressive penetration performance.

Call me when you get over 2100 fps.  Until then, you're not making the impressive temporary cavity permanent, so I'll stick to 147 grn 9x19mm that I can put a can on.

It seems strange that the pressure of the flutes at 2000gps would not create pressure at least comparable to 2500fps or more.

Im at work but ill post some info on pigs shot with these bullets... need to save the links.

Would you consider shooting a pig or deer a reasonable test?

I shot an old vest and it went through that and 12 inches of sand.  Better than what I thought.  should be great on hogs.

Im at work but ill post some info on pigs shot with these bullets... need to save the links

This would be interesting...
Thanks

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uIJ4S-sUzNA

These are loaded far below the underwood velocity too. He has another video... somewhere...

I don't know what you mean by 2000gps, but I've seen gimmick bullets before.  I'm not seeing Joe Deer Hunter rushing to replace his .270" soft points.

I'm hoping they release a +p+ version of the 65gr soon. Hoping to hit 2000fps from the 17L.

Now if they would load the 65 grn in a .357" SIG, and you could throw it out there over 2000 fps, we would be talking.  Or a 9x25mm Dillon.

They do! In fact, the .357 SIG was released before the 9mm.

2100fps!
https://underwoodammo.com/shop/357-sig-65-grain-xtreme-defender/

http://underwoodammo.com/shop/357-sig-65-grain-xtreme-defender

That's intriguing.  Might have to plump for a 33 instead of a 26 if I can find anyone converting SUB-2000s to .357".

And the Gen2 gun has the serial number on the tube.  So you might be able to build it as a pistol w/ a removeable stock, which would solve some Texas legal issues...

Someone on Glock Talk fired the new UW 65gr from his 16" .357 sig carbine as well as some other pistols:
G31 = 2164fps
6” barrel = 2269 fps
9” barrel = 2494fps
16” = 2699fps

Note the 16" velocity - that's as fast or faster then many .233 loads out of a 16" barrel; it's nearly identical to the 62gr Federal Fusion!

Further proof that Underwood is the best of the specialty ammo makers.

.40  has a powder charge of what 6 grains  , so necking a .40 to .357 sig will give what 5.5 grains? While .223 has 22-25 grains running 62 grain bullets is  2950 2900?  both with 65 grain bullets and they get comparable performance??? there is something missing, 4 times as much powder for only 150 extra FPS.

200 fps from 2900 to 2700 fps.  10x25mm Norma has about the same case capacity as .223".  .357" SIG is a shortened and necked down 10x25mm Norma, by way of .40" S&W.  And the .357" SIG is running pistol powders w/ an optimum bbl length of 5-7"; .223" is made w/ rifle powders & will continue to accelerate in a 24" rifle bbl.

But this does give us a very interesting PDW caliber.  Able to fit in some of the smallest pistols on the market, the Glock 33 for one, able to run heavy subsonics, I'd expect up to 200 grn if you really wanted to, while exceeding 2100 fps out of a duty sized handgun, and squarely into 5.7x28mm/.223" performance out of a 16" carbine.  This should give the FN 5.7 pistol and the 5.7x28mm a run for their money.

Barring the folding bbl AR, I think you could probably get this to run out of a KelTec SUB-2000.  That would make for a very compact PDW - and non-SBR - package that takes standard Glock mags, interchangeable w/ your sidearm.  Both relatively easily suppressed.

 I am a proponent of heavy- for caliber defense bullets. sectional density  is more important than muzzle velocity.
 in 9mm, I ONLY  use 147 grain JHP.

I quite agree - @ pistol velocities, JHP that penetrates @ least 12" and expands reliably is the best we can do, and all the major pistol calibers equally suck @ significant damage to human bodies.

2100 fps is a rifle velocity, and apparently beyond the elastic limit of human flesh, meaning the temporary cavity is permanent.  This is the attraction of the 5.7x28mm aftermarket bullets that exceed 2100 fps out of a pistol.  This loading in .357" SIG gives us 2100+ fps out of a Glock 19 sized pistol, w/ a 13 round magazine, just 7 less than the FN 5.7 pistol, and half the price.

That doesn't apply to bullets like the Lehigh XD or the old THV that don't expand. They get more then enough penetration despite their light weight, averaging over 16". Making them heavier would just make them less effective and overpenetrate. It's basically the opposite of what you want in this design.

Bullet weight only matters when the bullet expands, because the act of expansion creates tremendous drag that slows the bullet down and reduces penetration. The wider the expansion, the more energy and momentum is required for penetration.

A bullet that doesnt expand doesnt need mass or energy to penetrate - basic .22lr penetrates 12"+ easily, and .32 FMJ easily makes it 16-18".

"Overpenetration" is only of concern to police departments and do gooders.

You dont have to carry these as they are not conventional, but they are nore consistent than gold dot or hst in penetrating about 17in after passing through various barriers. These are not hollowpoints.

That said, I carry 147gr XTP +P in my Glock43 lol

Id agree however due to how the flutes are supposed to work you want the damagr from the extra velocity.

Also i think 16-18in is pretty good penetration already although id be fine with 18-20 in too ... personally. If i had to shoot someone in the hip from 5 feet id rather have a penetrating bullet

http://www.ar15.com/forums/handguns/Getting-more-than-2100-fps-out-of-a-large-concealable-handgun-/4-176454/

We might be there already.

ETA:  And I see in my OP I was already aware of Underwood's .357" SIG loading, and noted it.

It's a concern for terminal ballistics - you're wasting energy rather then using it in the target, reducing your ballistic pressure wave. That's why you see otherwise high energy rounds that penetrate 20+" just make the gel block wiggle a little, vs making the block jump or blasting it off the table.

You can see this for yourself comparing Underwood 125gr vs 158gr .357 magnum. Nearly identical energy and expansion - but the one that doesn't over penetrate blows the block off the table, while the overpenetratting round makes the block just wiggle a little.

125gr:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S37mDA_myNw

158gr:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjHg26zycWg

Overpenetration is the ballistic equivalent of drinking from a cup with a hole in the bottom.

We've had this debate before.  If the round that penetrates more than 18" does what it's supposed to do - expand reliably and penetrates @ least 12" - I don't really care what it does after that.  I'm not a police department and the chances that a loved one will be hit by a round I shoot through a miscreant is less than them being struck by lightning.

As far as I can tell, energy doesn't come into play up until 2000-2100 fps.  Until then, it's momentum and controlled expansion, or in the case of FMJ & hard-cast semi-wadcutters, just momentum.  A 150 lb man weighs a lot more than a block of gel - he's not going down instantaneously from a normal pistol shot w/o a CNS hit.

Correct. Many fall into believing these myths circulated by ammunition companies to separate them from their hard earned money.

Energy and the term "stopping power" or "knockdown power" mean nothing when it comes to wounding a person with a slow moving pistol round.

There is evidence of this in actual shootings. Recently, an above average man of girth in New Jersey took 20 plus rounds of .40 S&W hollow points into his chest area. It didn't put him down. The energy dump did nothing. It wasn't until he got shot in the leg that he went down. There are numerous instances just like this easily searchable online where people have been shot in the chest in a non vital area and the so called "energy" did nothing. Look at the FBI shootout in Miami. The so called "Energy Dump" of the 115 gr Winchester Silvertip going at about 1300 fps with almost 400 ft lbs of "Energy" did nothing as well. It stopped an inch from his heart and he still had fight left in him. The result would have been a lot different if a .38 Special Semi Wadcutter or 9mm FMJ with "Wasted Energy" and "Over Penetration" would have been used.

Penetration and shot placement are the "only" factors in wounding when it comes to slow moving handgun bullets that mean anything.

There is no such thing as energy wasted.

I agree with you that over penetration is a myth as well. It's used to sell bullets. It never was a significant factor before the 90's when the police used semi wadcutters as a duty load for the .38 Special or .357. A complete miss which will happen in almost every shooting is an over penetrator too.

I share some of those thiughts as well.

When I hear a bad guy soaked up 15+ rounds i inagime some must have stopped before reaching the spine. Seems out of 15 shots to the chest a few should have been in alignment with the spine.

Balloon/string drill.  Spinal cord is a very thin target.

Vertebra are about an inch or thicker, so I think hitting the vertical line with a bullet .5 to .7 wide seems a good possibility.

You may miss it of course, just seems very possible to me...

Individual hangun proficiency declines 87% when the targets are shooting back, I'm told.

So anyone want to donate some for me to test against armor :D

I'd really like a 40-50 HP designed to expand from 1500-2400 fps in the .357" SIG.