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Posted: 6/8/2017 12:37:18 PM EDT
[#1]
HST.
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Posted: 6/8/2017 1:34:08 PM EDT
[#2]
Yes hi shock is better.
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Posted: 6/8/2017 1:39:33 PM EDT
[#3]
It is iffy if it will meet the 12in minimum, but it seems to get at least 11 inches then act like FMJ half of the time so would be identical to FMJ half the time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4I9G9Fkv_w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r50qnpXsxf8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwjN41tBcM4 (barely tests it) Interesting question I would probably go with FMJ because while I hate it, I don't want to carry ammo that might not meet the minimum penetration. |
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Posted: 6/8/2017 1:58:26 PM EDT
[#4]
115gr FMJ would be my choice but both options suck in that weight. If I were going to carry FMJ 124gr would be the lightest I would go and my preference would be 147gr. Hi shok is just a really old bullet design. It is marginally better than FMJ and in that weight penetration can be a problem. The FBI learned this the hard way during the 1986 Miami shoot out. There were multiple instances where their 115gr Silvertips did not penetrate deep enough to be effective. Old bullet tech that is very light is not that effective.
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Posted: 6/8/2017 6:39:18 PM EDT
[#5]
Fmj
I keep the following for hst back up 147 hishok Then 124 nato |
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Posted: 6/8/2017 7:16:55 PM EDT
[#6]
I've talked to others offline and got similar answers, thanks!
I'm probably going to carry plain old fmj. I'm not 1000% on this yet.... but for years I've practiced with one round (fmj anything) and carried another (+p gold dots or HST) and to be honest, the skills just aren't transferring for me. I manage to still squeeze off a few mags of +p ammo per range trip. But it's not the same as hundreds of practice rounds. Let's say it's been a decade of shooting - and I still shoot so much better with non +p, bordering on damn accurate if not quick. I just don't have the cash for the quantity of +p rounds id like to practice with, and can't afford the same of the newest sorcery rounds that go slow yet somehow penetrate and expand. I'll just have to rely on shot placement and avoiding trouble, as usual. |
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Posted: 6/8/2017 8:09:14 PM EDT
[#7]
So why shoot +p? Just shoot standard velocity.
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Posted: 6/8/2017 8:22:14 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So why shoot +p? Just shoot standard velocity. You know of standard velocity hollow points, that meet FBI guidelines I'm assuming, that are affordable enough to shoot in quantity? Fmj let's say is 18 cents a round. Hi shok 34. What std velocity rounds are 340/1000 delivered? I'm not being sarcastic, talk to me. |
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Posted: 6/8/2017 9:37:43 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Talk to me. You know of standard velocity hollow points, that meet FBI guidelines I'm assuming, that are affordable enough to shoot in quantity? Fmj let's say is 18 cents a round. Hi shok 34. What std velocity rounds are 340/1000 delivered? I'm not being sarcastic, talk to me. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
So why shoot +p? Just shoot standard velocity. You know of standard velocity hollow points, that meet FBI guidelines I'm assuming, that are affordable enough to shoot in quantity? Fmj let's say is 18 cents a round. Hi shok 34. What std velocity rounds are 340/1000 delivered? I'm not being sarcastic, talk to me. If that's to much than he 147 grain hi shoks from sgammo for $15/50 and will at least penatrate to the vitals. If I wanted to carry fmj it would either be NATO or American eagle 147 grain flatpoint |
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Posted: 6/8/2017 11:16:04 PM EDT
[#10]
OP I agree with 0PRN I think you can find many standard pressure rounds that are just a little more expensive but very similar in velocity to your target ammo. It seems that in gel some of the standard rounds outperform the +P rounds too.
115gr Hi ShoK - 1180fps 115gr Hornady XTP - 1155fps (25fps slower) 115gr Gold Dot - 1210fps (40fps faster) 115gr Fiocchi - 1200fps Note the 115gr XTP test from Luckygunner labs, I would prefer this over Hi-Shok: http://www.luckygunner.com/9mm-115-gr-jhp-xtp-hornady-25-rounds#geltest I don't know your budget ... or how much more you like shooting 115gr but depending on if you don't mind shooting 124/147 grain I would maybe pay a little more for your FMJ and use those. I have a Glock 43 and am trying ot decide whether to go with 115gr Corbon DPX or Underwood 147gr XTP +P. The Underwood kicks a bit but will penetrate better. If I get the 147gr Underwood, I'll be buying 147gr FMJ to practice with. |
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Posted: 6/9/2017 12:29:42 AM EDT
[#11]
I will certainly look into it. Thanks for an old style arf thread. Why I came here. Why I stay here.
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Posted: 6/9/2017 12:32:46 AM EDT
[#12]
One quick follow up. Why do most threads like this end up leaning towards 147gr over 115. I thought velocity was the main thing 9mm had going for it. It's not like we are talking f class distances where the weight would help carry speed. Is it just the notion that more is better?
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Posted: 6/9/2017 12:42:15 AM EDT
[#13]
And some more final thoughts before bed :-). What about the LE trade in ammo on the EE. Can get 260 for 104 shipped. Seems to be what you all are recommending.
I've usually leaned Speer but today o had two gdhp go pop on me instead of bang. First time in.... ever for me. Granted this is ten year old, Florida stored ammo, last of that batch (for me) ammo. But ugh what a confidence killer. Now I feel the irrational need to avoid Speer. But seriously, it looks unfired and unloaded. The shopped price is right. Certainly a more modern billet than hi shok. |
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Posted: 6/9/2017 12:54:26 AM EDT
[#14]
Wtf. Shipping is actual too so not a rip off. Is this place legit? Too good to be true?
https://www.bonefroggunclub.com/products/9mm-124gr-federal-premium-tactical-hst-jhp-50rds-p9hst1 That's only 4$ more per box than hi shok. |
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Posted: 6/9/2017 1:18:51 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Wtf. Shipping is actual too so not a rip off. Is this place legit? Too good to be true? https://www.bonefroggunclub.com/products/9mm-124gr-federal-premium-tactical-hst-jhp-50rds-p9hst1 That's only 4$ more per box than hi shok. |
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Posted: 6/9/2017 1:25:25 AM EDT
[#16]
Yeah they are legit. Or you could get some magtech bonded jhp for around 30cpr. not the best jhp but i would carry it over hi shok.
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Posted: 6/9/2017 1:36:32 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Wtf. Shipping is actual too so not a rip off. Is this place legit? Too good to be true? https://www.bonefroggunclub.com/products/9mm-124gr-federal-premium-tactical-hst-jhp-50rds-p9hst1 That's only 4$ more per box than hi shok. |
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Posted: 6/9/2017 3:44:12 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
One quick follow up. Why do most threads like this end up leaning towards 147gr over 115. I thought velocity was the main thing 9mm had going for it. It's not like we are talking f class distances where the weight would help carry speed. Is it just the notion that more is better? Not sure if authentic, but an interesting read: http://mouseguns.com/deadmeat.htm I think we can all agree here that a 1oz slug at 1600fps would be ideal. But shotguns are hard to carry everywhere. |
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Posted: 6/9/2017 7:39:33 AM EDT
[#19]
Bonefrog is good to
I like 147 because for me they seem to be more accurate by a little. Also, if you wanted to use older tech bullets I think the heavier the better. They will at least penatrate and won't over expand. 115 legacy bullets may expand to much and not penatrate enough. With HST bullets I don't care 124/147 +p or not. |
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Posted: 6/9/2017 8:21:40 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Depends on the thread, apparently a few tests say 124gr does slightly better with harder barriers like car doors. I haven't done any testing comparing 124/147. I hypothesize 147gr would break bones a LITTLE better but I don't know. Not sure if authentic, but an interesting read: http://mouseguns.com/deadmeat.htm I think we can all agree here that a 1oz slug at 1600fps would be ideal. But shotguns are hard to carry everywhere. ETA: the subjective accuracy argument is easier to swallow. Heck that's the basis for this whole thread :-) |
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Posted: 6/9/2017 8:26:13 AM EDT
[#21]
I'm speaking hearsay here, but 147s play better with suppressors, have a different recoil characteristic that some people like and, in old tech bullets like hi shok will still penetrate deep enough to reach vitals even if they don't perform perfectly.
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Posted: 6/10/2017 9:44:35 AM EDT
[#22]
Federal 115 grain HI-shok
It is accurate, reliable, and has a loooong history of OK street performance. |
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Posted: 6/10/2017 3:42:21 PM EDT
[#23]
Bad HP > FMJ any day.
Might expand, might not. FMJ definitely will not. |
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Posted: 6/10/2017 6:26:57 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Bad HP > FMJ any day. Might expand, might not. FMJ definitely will not. Bad HP might not reach the heart or spine. |
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Posted: 6/10/2017 9:17:59 PM EDT
[#25]
And of course aim's Friday email has hi shok for 11/box. Yowza.
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Posted: 6/10/2017 9:47:59 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Bad HP > FMJ any day. Might expand, might not. FMJ definitely will not. NATO ball works fine when you hit vitals. Shit hollow points that don't reach the vitals won't do shit. |
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Posted: 6/10/2017 9:51:17 PM EDT
[#27]
I carry 124 standard pressure ammo.
I practice wth 124 standard pressure. |
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Posted: 6/10/2017 11:28:27 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And some more final thoughts before bed :-). What about the LE trade in ammo on the EE. Can get 260 for 104 shipped. Seems to be what you all are recommending. I've usually leaned Speer but today o had two gdhp go pop on me instead of bang. First time in.... ever for me. Granted this is ten year old, Florida stored ammo, last of that batch (for me) ammo. But ugh what a confidence killer. Now I feel the irrational need to avoid Speer. But seriously, it looks unfired and unloaded. The shopped price is right. Certainly a more modern billet than hi shok. |
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Posted: 6/11/2017 1:31:13 AM EDT
[#29]
They say carry ammo has a 10 year shelf life, so adding Florida-stored says something (to me).
The new Gold Dot G2 seems to have had some bad batches though ... or won't expand well out of a Glock 19. |
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Posted: 6/15/2017 6:18:02 PM EDT
[#30]
Bone Frog Gunclub's prices are even cheaper now... Honestly, for the marginal price increase, you get a far superior and reliably expanding round.
https://www.bonefroggunclub.com/collections/ammunition/9mm |
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Posted: 6/16/2017 11:19:52 AM EDT
[#31]
I've found a few tests online. In bare gel sometimes the Hi Shoks underpenetrate at 10 inches. With clothing they plug up and overpenetrate.
Me personally, I'd go with the FMJ if it were the only 2 available to me. With the FMJ, no matter if you are wearing a leather jacket, 12 layers of denim, or are totally naked, the round will penetrate both sides with complete passthrough. Penetration is what kills you. If an expanded bullet doesn't reach vitals, you bleed but aren't out of the fight. The Miami shootout proved that. That Winchester Silvertip over expanded and stopped about an inch short of vitals. (The heart) Had it been a FMJ, it would have reached his heart. Don't listen to some here who say expansion is greater than penetration. If I shoot you with a beautifully expanded hollowpoint through your right shoulder and it doesn't reach your heart, you can still fire back at me. If I do the same with a 115 gr fmj that'll go through that shoulder, through the heart, and possibly out the other shoulder, you'll more than likely not be able to return any fire. |
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Posted: 6/18/2017 4:17:56 AM EDT
[#32]
I carry the +p+ version in most of my 9mms but still keep 500 none pod this round for my 9mm 1911. It just works and no fuse.
When I had my 1st off duty shooting I was using this round it worked so it worked when it needed too. Rangers work too but hard to find them in my area so I just stick with what I know. |
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Posted: 6/18/2017 10:49:34 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've found a few tests online. In bare gel sometimes the Hi Shoks underpenetrate at 10 inches. With clothing they plug up and overpenetrate. Me personally, I'd go with the FMJ if it were the only 2 available to me. With the FMJ, no matter if you are wearing a leather jacket, 12 layers of denim, or are totally naked, the round will penetrate both sides with complete passthrough. Penetration is what kills you. If an expanded bullet doesn't reach vitals, you bleed but aren't out of the fight. The Miami shootout proved that. That Winchester Silvertip over expanded and stopped about an inch short of vitals. (The heart) Had it been a FMJ, it would have reached his heart. Don't listen to some here who say expansion is greater than penetration. If I shoot you with a beautifully expanded hollowpoint through your right shoulder and it doesn't reach your heart, you can still fire back at me. If I do the same with a 115 gr fmj that'll go through that shoulder, through the heart, and possibly out the other shoulder, you'll more than likely not be able to return any fire. |
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Posted: 6/18/2017 6:31:57 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Fmj let's say is 18 cents a round. Hi shok 34. What std velocity rounds are 340/1000 delivered? I'm not being sarcastic, talk to me. I just bought some for $19 a box |
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Posted: 6/18/2017 6:34:09 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Wtf. Shipping is actual too so not a rip off. Is this place legit? Too good to be true? https://www.bonefroggunclub.com/products/9mm-124gr-federal-premium-tactical-hst-jhp-50rds-p9hst1 That's only 4$ more per box than hi shok. |
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Posted: 6/19/2017 8:18:38 AM EDT
[#36]
IF the HP really underpenetrates, I would reluctantly pick the FMJ (would have to see the data for a final answer).
If you want cheap training ammo that is similar to carry load, Speer Lawman is training ammo designed to mimic the Gold Dot loads. I'm not a fan of Gold Dot, all the 9mm (except 147g) loads underpenetrate in bare gel and the 147g has marginal expansion. Heaviest for caliber HST is usually the best (bare gel, and I live in Florida so not worried about heavy clothing. Your situation may be different). Personally, I train with whatever I have on hand and is inexpensive. That is usually 115g FMJ. IF I ever have to use a gun to defend myself/family there is no way in the world that a slight change in POA is going to be a factor. With the adrenalin flowing, dynamic shooting situations you aren't going to be achieving "bulls eye" accuracy. If you are really concerned, train with Lawman and carry Gold Dot. Or, carry something like 147g HST and train with a 147g FMJ. Much better option than carrying FMJ or a crappy HP. Also, Ranger-T is about the best in heavy clothing. They advertise the frangible and Super Clean Winchester ammo as having same POI as the duty ammo (Winchester brochure Not sure how expensive they are for training... |
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Posted: 6/19/2017 10:13:16 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
IF the HP really underpenetrates, I would reluctantly pick the FMJ (would have to see the data for a final answer). If you want cheap training ammo that is similar to carry load, Speer Lawman is training ammo designed to mimic the Gold Dot loads. I'm not a fan of Gold Dot, all the 9mm (except 147g) loads underpenetrate in bare gel and the 147g has marginal expansion. Heaviest for caliber HST is usually the best (bare gel, and I live in Florida so not worried about heavy clothing. Your situation may be different). Personally, I train with whatever I have on hand and is inexpensive. That is usually 115g FMJ. IF I ever have to use a gun to defend myself/family there is no way in the world that a slight change in POA is going to be a factor. With the adrenalin flowing, dynamic shooting situations you aren't going to be achieving "bulls eye" accuracy. If you are really concerned, train with Lawman and carry Gold Dot. Or, carry something like 147g HST and train with a 147g FMJ. Much better option than carrying FMJ or a crappy HP. Also, Ranger-T is about the best in heavy clothing. They advertise the frangible and Super Clean Winchester ammo as having same POI as the duty ammo (Winchester brochure Not sure how expensive they are for training... |
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Posted: 6/21/2017 12:37:58 AM EDT
[#38]
You can get +p+ 9BPLE for the same price of Hi-Shok online, so that would be my choice.
Or, you can used 124gr +p Speer Gold Dot @ 1200fps for your carry ammo, and use 9mm 124gr NATO @ 1180fps for your practice ammo. |
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Posted: 6/24/2017 7:21:27 PM EDT
[#39]
I would choose 9BP over ball every single time. The only time those old hollowpoints underpenetrate is if its driven very fast like the LE version and it overexpands or fragments.
So if its under 12" you got great expansion. If it doesnt expand it acts as ball. Its not going to fail to expand and also fail to penetrate. |
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Posted: 6/24/2017 8:44:35 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I would choose 9BP over ball every single time. The only time those old hollowpoints underpenetrate is if its driven very fast like the LE version and it overexpands or fragments. So if its under 12" you got great expansion. If it doesnt expand it acts as ball. Its not going to fail to expand and also fail to penetrate. |
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Posted: 6/24/2017 10:30:55 PM EDT
[#41]
Penetration is first. Expansion is secondary. Anyone who thinks otherwise should read a little more about how ballistics work in stopping a threat.
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Posted: 6/25/2017 5:46:22 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And great expansion without adequate penetration sucks. But if we are talking several inches shy of minimum then yes I agree. That doesnt apply to 9BP. It gets 11-12". |
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Posted: 6/25/2017 9:50:01 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They say carry ammo has a 10 year shelf life, so adding Florida-stored says something (to me). The new Gold Dot G2 seems to have had some bad batches though ... or won't expand well out of a Glock 19. I have shot ammo made prior to World War One that shot fine. I fail to see how shooting a large number of cheaper hp's does something different than shooting fmj and carrying a different hp ( providing you prove the hp functions your gun for a couple hundred rounds) |
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Posted: 6/25/2017 11:40:40 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Shelf life is bs some people and cops keep the same duty ammo in mags for a whole career without swapping out. I have shot ammo made prior to World War One that shot fine. I fail to see how shooting a large number of cheaper hp's does something different than shooting fmj and carrying a different hp ( providing you prove the hp functions your gun for a couple hundred rounds) Personally I'll chamber a round about 3 times and feel alright about it. I once put an Underwood Gold Dot through the washing machine and dryer and it shot fine at the range. That's basically soaking it in water for an hour. I agree on testing a HP and shooting FMJ you can always pick a FMJ with the same grain or close enough (to me). OP was saying they noticed a big difference in recoil. Hopefuly OP found a less crappy bullet. |
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Posted: 7/11/2017 10:24:05 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Shelf life is bs some people and cops keep the same duty ammo in mags for a whole career without swapping out. I have shot ammo made prior to World War One that shot fine. I fail to see how shooting a large number of cheaper hp's does something different than shooting fmj and carrying a different hp ( providing you prove the hp functions your gun for a couple hundred rounds) Having said that, I'm sure even the worst modern ammo will last well past 10 years, even if stored out in the elements. But if we are talking personal defense ammo, to use to protect my family, I would rather pay double for fresh ammo rather than shit that was stored in the trunk of a police car or humid garage in FL for 10 years. As a side note, I recently shot up the last of my old 40 SW Black Talon duty loads that I was issued when I was a rookie LEO 20 years ago. When we qualified and got new duty ammo, I just dumped the old stuff into a box in my trunk. It looked like crap, stained, some corroded brass, all scratched up from multiple chamberings etc. But it all shot great!! Not one dud. |
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