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Posted: 5/15/2017 6:12:49 PM EDT
People have posted several time that I need to try out Federal HST’s and I finally got around to doing the first of three. In this test I shot the 9mm HST 147gr +P into two 16 inch blocks of Clear Ballistics gel with a Glock 17. Two rounds through bare gel and two rounds fired through heavy clothing.
The first round in bare gel had an impact velocity of 1097fps penetrated to 14 inches and expanded to .72 inch. The second round hit at 1089fps penetrated to 14.25 inches and expanded to .72 inches also. 
In heavy clothing my chrony didn’t pick up the velocity of either of the two rounds but both rounds penetrated to 18 inches with one round expanding to .62 inches and the other to .64 inches. 
I’m going to have to try this load in a short barrel pistol and through four layers of denim. I’m hoping for good results. 
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Posted: 5/15/2017 7:09:00 PM EDT
[#1]
awesome
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Posted: 5/15/2017 7:19:18 PM EDT
[#2]
Standard pressure 147 HST is my round of choice in a Glock 17.
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Posted: 5/15/2017 7:52:38 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Standard pressure 147 HST is my round of choice in a Glock 17. I have a Hornady study of various 9mm rounds at different velocities. Hornady was marketing their XTP at the time and the other hot tickets were the Hydrashok and the Talon Similar expansion. Old marketing. New marketing. OP forgot residual bullet weights and water testing. What was ambient temp? Gelatin temp? I forgot, what are we proving here? |
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Posted: 5/15/2017 11:37:38 PM EDT
[#4]
Very impressive, it will be interesting to see the short barrel results.
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Posted: 5/16/2017 4:31:05 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Very impressive, it will be interesting to see the short barrel results.  Ammo Quest 9mm: Federal HST 147gr+P ammo test in ballistic gelatin P9HST4 |
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Posted: 5/16/2017 11:44:11 AM EDT
[#6]
Those look good. The cloth penetration and expansion is impressive.
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Posted: 5/16/2017 4:40:39 PM EDT
[#7]
That's the load I carry. Good to know.
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Posted: 5/16/2017 7:24:13 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Standard pressure 147 HST is my round of choice in a Glock 17. |
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Posted: 5/17/2017 5:56:59 PM EDT
[#9]
I know it's not scientific but I tested the 147gr HST standard pressure and +p in 4 layer denim covered milk jugs. The standard pressure broke a hole in the far side of the 3rd jug, but remained in the jug. The +p penetrated the 4th jug and broke a hole in the far side. The velocity difference between the two is only 35-40 fps in my P320 compact. I think the difference in penetration is from the bullet design not the velocity. The skives in on the standard pressure are a little longer than the +p version. Both of the bullets had great expansion. The +p looked just like the ones posted in the clear gel test.
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Posted: 5/17/2017 7:55:14 PM EDT
[#10]
This is a 147g standard pressure HST, out of a short barrel Shield, moving at a whopping 900fps through two layers (down here, no one would ever wear more) of denim.
 Attached FileMeasured .63". Went through the denim, and just barely through the 3rd jug of water. I have some +P, but haven't tried them out yet. |
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Posted: 5/18/2017 9:57:56 AM EDT
[#11]
Based only on my milk jug tests, I prefer the +p because of the increased penetration. I may test them again to see if results are the same.
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Posted: 5/18/2017 12:20:50 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is a 147g standard pressure HST, out of a short barrel Shield, moving at a whopping 900fps through two layers (down here, no one would ever wear more) of denim. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/442087/shield-147g--2--210498.JPG Measured .63". Went through the denim, and just barely through the 3rd jug of water. I have some +P, but haven't tried them out yet. A 147grain HST at 900fps to the torso will put the big hurt on a shitty Perp... |
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Posted: 5/19/2017 6:07:31 AM EDT
[#13]
That's my carry load
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Posted: 5/21/2017 7:35:20 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I live in Atlanta Georgia and I cannot remember the last time I've seen anyone wearing a jean jacket: and I've been on the look out too... I'm thinking the 4 layer denim protocol has become a bit antiquated... along with other 80's clothing styles, themes, and music such as: White Snake, Phil Collins, Jams Shorts, Gargoyle sun glasses, Pontiac "Trans-Am's", and Mullet hair cuts. A 147grain HST at 900fps to the torso will put the big hurt on a shitty Perp... |
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Posted: 5/22/2017 11:34:29 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I live in Atlanta Georgia and I cannot remember the last time I've seen anyone wearing a jean jacket: and I've been on the look out too... I'm thinking the 4 layer denim protocol has become a bit antiquated... along with other 80's clothing styles, themes, and music such as: White Snake, Phil Collins, Jams Shorts, Gargoyle sun glasses, Pontiac "Trans-Am's", and Mullet hair cuts. A 147grain HST at 900fps to the torso will put the big hurt on a shitty Perp... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
This is a 147g standard pressure HST, out of a short barrel Shield, moving at a whopping 900fps through two layers (down here, no one would ever wear more) of denim. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/442087/shield-147g--2--210498.JPG Measured .63". Went through the denim, and just barely through the 3rd jug of water. I have some +P, but haven't tried them out yet. A 147grain HST at 900fps to the torso will put the big hurt on a shitty Perp... |
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Posted: 5/22/2017 8:38:21 PM EDT
[#16]
Awesome. I use the 147 standard in my 9mms.
Can you do some .38 tests? |
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Posted: 5/29/2017 12:51:18 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Awesome. I use the 147 standard in my 9mms. Can you do some .38 tests? |
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Posted: 5/31/2017 9:56:25 AM EDT
[#18]
The thing with these heavy for caliber 147grain 9mm's is that you lose speed for a very slight increase in expansion diameter. So what you end up doing is turning a high velocity round that works against hard barriers into a slow round that'll fail against hard barriers. That's the reason no Federal agency adopts the .45 ACP. It's great for soft tissue (people) but terrible against hard barriers that those people might be shooting from behind. (Cars, aluminum display stands in stores, dumpsters, heavy wooden furniture, ect.)
Look at the video below. The 2 rounds that penetrated that pan had one thing going for them. Velocity. The ones that didn't penetrate that pan had one thing in common. Their velocity was under 900 fps. Had they had the velocity that the other 2 had at about 1100 fps, they would have all gone through. Not every shot is center mass at a guys chest. Barriers are very common. Think being trapped at a diner or train car with hard seats. Barrier Test  Improvised Armor (Frying Pan) Penetration Test (380 ACP, 9mm, 45 ACP, ect..) |
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Posted: 5/31/2017 10:07:13 AM EDT
[#19]
my current CZ P-07 & M&P carry load
. |
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Posted: 5/31/2017 5:08:54 PM EDT
[#20]
This is what I carry in all my 9mms. Previously I carried the 124gr +P Speer GD, a great round but I like added weight of the 147gr bullet even if I am trading a little velocity.
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Posted: 5/31/2017 5:26:23 PM EDT
[#21]
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Posted: 5/31/2017 5:28:37 PM EDT
[#22]
 Failed To Load Title |
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Posted: 5/31/2017 8:32:02 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is what I carry in all my 9mms. Previously I carried the 124gr +P Speer GD, a great round but I like added weight of the 147gr bullet even if I am trading a little velocity. |
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Posted: 6/1/2017 12:21:10 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Extra weight for what? It's a hollow point designed to stop at about the same depth of 12 to 18 inches. In fact, it penetrates less. 200 to 300 fps is much more important. Had it been a solid round like a hard cast for hunting, then the extra weight would aid in penetration since the bullet doesn't expand and parachute to a predetermined stop. You are getting no benefit in extra weight except a minimally larger hollow point at about less than half a milimeter at a cost of velocity for kinetic energy on soft tissue and a decrease in hard barrier penetration. That extra 200 to 300 fps is the difference in either making it through a hard barrier or not making it through. I have been though courses using the 147gr +P HST, performance though windshields, doors and fenders were no problem. Every round passed through. The gun that lives in my truck is a Sig P229 in .40 S&W. It is loaded with a 155gr +P bonded Gold Dot JHP made by Ga Arms. I realize there is not a +P spec for .40 S&W. The +P was added by the creator to denote the increase in pressure. The 155gr +P .40 smokes. When I am in my vehicle my P229 is my go to so I am not really concerned about penetration. Outside of my vehicle I carry a full size gun, so I am getting the most I can out of the performance of my bullet choice. https://www.ar15.com/forums/t_5_20/98581_.html&page=1 |
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Posted: 6/1/2017 1:37:35 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryWhat does steel volume refer to? |
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Posted: 6/1/2017 1:54:51 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Good chart What does steel volume refer to? |
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Posted: 6/2/2017 12:36:11 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have been though courses using the 147gr +P HST, performance though windshields, doors and fenders were no problem. [/url] |
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Posted: 6/2/2017 2:10:08 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not all vehicles are created equal. They aren't all made of thin metal. Think trucks or buses mowing down crowds.  in that case I'm pretty sure 300fps is not going to make that big of a difference one way or the other. If I left the house everyday worrying about facing down buses a handgun wouldn't be my go to. You are really reaching with that argument. Tell you what, you carry what you feel you need to carry in order to fight a MARTA bus and I will carry what I feel I need to carry to face down the threats I am most likely to encounter day to day. 
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Posted: 6/2/2017 8:12:56 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not all vehicles are created equal. They aren't all made of thin metal. Think trucks or buses mowing down crowds. |
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Posted: 6/2/2017 3:49:07 PM EDT
[#30]
The HST is such an awesome bullet.
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Posted: 6/5/2017 1:56:23 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think living in a may issue state that doesn't allow you to carry more than 7 rounds should be a bigger concern than shooting through buses and trains. Tell that to the sheep in Europe who were mowed down twice. |
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Posted: 6/5/2017 2:01:30 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
in that case I'm pretty sure 300fps is not going to make that big of a difference one way or the other. If I left the house everyday worrying about facing down buses a handgun wouldn't be my go to. You are really reaching with that argument. Tell you what, you carry what you feel you need to carry in order to fight a MARTA bus and I will carry what I feel I need to carry to face down the threats I am most likely to encounter day to day. |
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Posted: 6/5/2017 2:47:37 PM EDT
[#33]
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Posted: 6/6/2017 2:26:51 AM EDT
[#34]
Looks like the 147gr loses penetration on most hard objects and on the softer ones it penetrates a very minimal amount more. Very minimal. Pay close attention to the steel. It's night and day.
A larger, heavier number fools most. The .45 ACP is even worse but that or another thread. |
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Posted: 6/6/2017 3:55:18 AM EDT
[#35]
Terminal performance in testing and the real world are too similar to call one better than the other. I choose 147 for better accuracy, less felt recoil, and reduced wear. I have 124 +P, too, and I wouldn't hesitate to use it.
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Posted: 6/6/2017 8:59:02 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Looks like the 147gr loses penetration on most hard objects and on the softer ones it penetrates a very minimal amount more. Very minimal. Pay close attention to the steel. It's night and day. A larger, heavier number fools most. The .45 ACP is even worse but that or another thread. |
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Posted: 6/6/2017 9:18:13 AM EDT
[#37]
No 90 gr for me. 124 gr HST Standard Pressure is the better performer all things being considered. +P in 124 gr is only 50 fps faster and actually penetrates less.
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Posted: 6/6/2017 5:41:23 PM EDT
[#38]
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Posted: 6/6/2017 5:49:05 PM EDT
[#39]
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Posted: 6/6/2017 7:15:01 PM EDT
[#40]
Where are you getting these numbers? No way in hell any 9mm HST expands to .88 or a .45 ACP penetrates steel the same as a 9mm. I can't embed YouTube but the links are below to gel tests. The numbers are way different.
124 gr HST 147 gr HST |
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Posted: 6/6/2017 7:35:51 PM EDT
[#41]
Lots of information here.
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Posted: 6/6/2017 7:42:28 PM EDT
[#42]
Actual performance in gel tell a different story in the links above.
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Posted: 6/6/2017 7:54:15 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Actual performance in gel tell a different story in the links above. |
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Posted: 6/6/2017 8:16:36 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
All the information in the link I posted is actual performance. I don't know what to tell you. Carry what you like. When you get attacked by a goblin driving a dumpster you should be fine. |
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Posted: 6/7/2017 4:36:39 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well no way in hell a 9mm expands to .88. A .45 ACP has a hard time expanding to that diameter. Also, since the 147 expands sightly large than the 124r, it parachutes to a stop slightly faster. The .45 ACP couldn't even penetrate a pan while the 9mm and .40 sailed right through. You can see those results in my previous links with your own eyes. I initially stopped responding to you because it was clear you dont know what you are talking about but then you go and post this derp. I feel like we are discussing ballistics with a sixth grader. Stop getting your ballistic information from youtubers shooting frying pans and try actually looking at the results that were found using scientific methods.
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Posted: 6/7/2017 9:04:19 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well no way in hell a 9mm expands to .88. A .45 ACP has a hard time expanding to that diameter. Also, since the 147 expands sightly large than the 124r, it parachutes to a stop slightly faster. The .45 ACP couldn't even penetrate a pan while the 9mm and .40 sailed right through. You can see those results in my previous links with your own eyes. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
All the information in the link I posted is actual performance. I don't know what to tell you. Carry what you like. When you get attacked by a goblin driving a dumpster you should be fine. Like others have said. The numbers posted are solid data. The 124 grain load is a good load. Some others may be a little bit better in one scenario. Don't worry about it. Fwiw I would be 100% comfortable carrying 9mm NATO ball ammo. |
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Posted: 6/7/2017 2:16:24 PM EDT
[#47]
.88 in bare gel is standard? You aren't serious? Or are you just saying that to win an argument at the cost of misinforming everyone here?
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Posted: 6/7/2017 2:18:25 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I initially stopped responding to you because it was clear you dont know what you are talking about but then you go and post this derp. I feel like we are discussing ballistics with a sixth grader. Stop getting your ballistic information from youtubers shooting frying pans and try actually looking at the results that were found using scientific methods.It's scientifically proven that heavy grain penetrates soft barriers more than lighter grain and lighter grain with more velocity penetrates harder barriers more. Why do you think the Secret Service and the Air Marshals use a 125 gr .357 Sig in their barrier rich environments? Why go to think that 125 gr .357 Magnum was standard instead of a heavier grain for law enforcement years ago? |
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Posted: 6/7/2017 2:53:12 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yep. That's what you say when you have no argument. The videos speak for themselves. Don't respond and stay ignorant if you want to. That's entirely up to you. It's scientifically proven that heavy grain penetrates soft barriers more than lighter grain and lighter grain and more velocity penetrates harder barriers more. Why do you think the Secret Service and the Air Marshals use a 125 gr .357 Sig in their barrier rich environments? Why go to think that 125 gr .357 Magnum was standard instead of a heavier grain for law enforcement years ago? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yep. That's what you say when you have no argument. The videos speak for themselves. Don't respond and stay ignorant if you want to. That's entirely up to you. It's scientifically proven that heavy grain penetrates soft barriers more than lighter grain and lighter grain and more velocity penetrates harder barriers more. Why do you think the Secret Service and the Air Marshals use a 125 gr .357 Sig in their barrier rich environments? Why go to think that 125 gr .357 Magnum was standard instead of a heavier grain for law enforcement years ago? Originally Posted by DocGKR
Like SDPD, other large California agencies have successfully used the 9mm 147 gr JHP, such as LAPD, LASO, SJPD, SCPD. These and other California agencies successfully using the 9mm 147 gr JHP have thousands of officers with hundreds of officer involved shootings, all who have successfully used 9mm 147 gr JHP loads. Perhaps the documented success of the 9mm 147 gr JHP in California is a result of differing laws of physics on the West Coast than in other areas. Unfortunately, that conjecture does not stand up to scrutiny as the extensive Royal Canadian Mounted Police studies determined that the 9mm 147 gr JHP was the most effective load for the caliber. In addition, during the ammunition trials for the U.S. Military M11 pistol conducted by Navy Weapons Center Crane Indiana, the 9mm 147gr JHP was selected as the issue load for the M11, beating a variety of other 9mm JHP loads, including both standard pressure and +P pressure 115 gr and 124 gr JHP’s. Not to mention the FBI has consistently selected 9 mm 147 gr JHP's for issue to their personnel who are running 9 mm. |
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Posted: 6/7/2017 3:13:34 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I apologize. I wasn't aware that you were on the selection committee for those agencies and are privy to their selection criteria. By the way, how many OISs do those agencies have each year? Here is an interesting quote from someone more knowledgeable than me regarding 147 gr 9mm and agencies that actually get in gunfights. Seriously, there have been multiple study's done about the 9mm round dating back to 80s. If this guy wants to ignore all of that in favor of what he saw on a YouTube channel I can't help him. There are other pieces to this puzzle that are not being discussed. Some bullets are chosen not just because of its ballistic performance but also because of how it functions in a chosen firearm. This is especially true when you attempt to bring .357 Sig and .40 S&W into the discussion. This guy is attempting to discuss this topic, making observations while looking through a drinking straw. This topic is not simple. It is complex and you can not determine a final selection based on the results of a YouTube video. |
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