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Posted: 12/7/2016 4:05:26 PM EDT
Just curious which .45 Federal HST you would prefer?

The 230 grain JHP Standard Pressure or the +P?

These will be used in a 5" 1911A1.

Thanks in advance.
Link Posted: 12/7/2016 5:03:17 PM EDT
[#1]
I prefer the standard pressure loading. I also have a 5" 1911 btw. Maybe in a shorter barrel the +p might be worth it. But most good .45 HP bullets get more penetration from the standard loading pressure in full size pistols from what I have seen of gel tests, and still offer huge expansion.

P.s. I carry the same in my Glock 30s. Which is as short of a barreled .45ACP as I am willing to carry.

What's the purpose of the ammo? What do you want most front it?

Oh and I have a HST bullet fired from my 1911 into water that has a max expansion of 1.002".....yeah standard is fine ROFL.
Link Posted: 12/7/2016 5:56:39 PM EDT
[#2]
I've always heard the opposite.

To get the full benefit of +P, the barrel needs to be long enough to burn the additional powder.
Link Posted: 12/7/2016 6:35:50 PM EDT
[#3]
Whichever you can get and if one shoots better then that one.

Link Posted: 12/7/2016 6:50:03 PM EDT
[#4]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I've always heard the opposite.

To get the full benefit of +P, the barrel needs to be long enough to burn the additional powder.
View Quote

Me too. I carry standard 230gr HST in my 45 Shield. Looking at testing data, standard loading actually performed better, expansion wise, from a short barrel.

45acp short bbl ammo test.
Link Posted: 12/7/2016 6:57:36 PM EDT
[#5]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I prefer the standard pressure loading. I also have a 5" 1911 btw. Maybe in a shorter barrel the +p might be worth it. But most good .45 HP bullets get more penetration from the standard loading pressure in full size pistols from what I have seen of gel tests, and still offer huge expansion.

P.s. I carry the same in my Glock 30s. Which is as short of a barreled .45ACP as I am willing to carry.

What's the purpose of the ammo? What do you want most front it?

Oh and I have a HST bullet fired from my 1911 into water that has a max expansion of 1.002".....yeah standard is fine ROFL.
View Quote
Purpose is just general self defense.  Just wanted to know what people thought.  I carry a VP9 daily...but just wanted something besides SWC and ball for my 1911to keep handy.
Link Posted: 12/7/2016 7:02:13 PM EDT
[#6]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I've always heard the opposite.

To get the full benefit of +P, the barrel needs to be long enough to burn the additional powder.
View Quote


I believe you're correct.

OP It makes almost zero difference in .45
Link Posted: 12/7/2016 8:25:02 PM EDT
[#7]

I run +P on all my HST just because it's the same price so why not?

Link Posted: 12/7/2016 9:57:22 PM EDT
[#8]
If there is a choice, '+P' is  the wrong answer.
 Standard pressure loads are what you want.
Link Posted: 12/8/2016 7:09:19 AM EDT
[#9]
I own, have shot, and carried both. I have settled on standard pressure because it meets standards and I'm not sure I need the extra recoil to achieve that. That being said in an all steel firearm the extra recoil isn't that bad.
Link Posted: 12/8/2016 8:49:06 AM EDT
[#10]
I can't stand to shoot the +P in my Sig 1911 with the raised grip safety because that raised part hits my hand right in the webbing between thumb and forefinger and gets painful in short order.  That said, I'm currently carrying Winchester Ranger T +P 230 gr in that 1911, my Walther PPQ 45, and Kimber Ultra Carry II.  I just like as big of a hole and as much power as I can get in whatever handgun I am carrying.
Link Posted: 12/8/2016 10:18:57 PM EDT
[#11]
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Quoted:
Whichever you can get and if one shoots better then that one.
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This....... Add "what do you shoot best?" to the mix. I don't mean slow well aimed laxidasical. I mean fast, dirty, on target, mean and ugly. Follow up shots aren't for a 22 short. Shoot till the threat is no longer a threat. Hollywood has made a very wide gray area between reality and legend.
Link Posted: 12/8/2016 11:07:35 PM EDT
[#12]
I have both. I've ran enough tests with HST's in both short and duty sized barrels  in either standard or +P to know that there will be a tiny margin of difference after the 14 inch mark. They also group the same while the +P is a slightly more of a push than the normal push a .45 ACP does. Not much of a difference at all even.

Currently in my mags are the standard pressure. I'm not opening boxes of +P's when standard pressure will do it in any length barrel just as well.
Link Posted: 12/9/2016 6:02:19 PM EDT
[#13]
I always go standard pressure now.  Less recoil than +P, sometimes +P has a little more flash in shorter barrel, less wear on the pistol, and faster follow up shots.

In ballistic gel standard pressure with some loads preforms better than +P.  On human tissue I cannot say how one will preform over another as I do not go around shooting people all that often so I have to rely on ballistic gel test.
Link Posted: 12/19/2016 3:47:59 PM EDT
[#14]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

I run +P on all my HST just because it's the same price so why not?
View Quote



If you look at the Lucky Gunner Test that was linked above, the 230g HST (+p and normal p) are the first two.  The standard pressure expands more, with both meeting penetration criteria.  So the standard will potentially create more wounding, but have less flash/recoil (faster time back to target etc).

that's why not.
Link Posted: 12/20/2016 11:07:36 AM EDT
[#15]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



If you look at the Lucky Gunner Test that was linked above, the 230g HST (+p and normal p) are the first two.  The standard pressure expands more, with both meeting penetration criteria.  So the standard will potentially create more wounding, but have less flash/recoil (faster time back to target etc).

that's why not.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:

I run +P on all my HST just because it's the same price so why not?



If you look at the Lucky Gunner Test that was linked above, the 230g HST (+p and normal p) are the first two.  The standard pressure expands more, with both meeting penetration criteria.  So the standard will potentially create more wounding, but have less flash/recoil (faster time back to target etc).

that's why not.


You're cherry picking results.

Both had adequate penatration and expansion. Yes the non +p expanded 0.06" more. The +p penatrated .9" more.

I can't tell the difference in recoil and when it comes to bullet performance around things like windshields and car doors more often then not the faster round will have less deflection on the off side and better performance.
Link Posted: 2/11/2017 2:28:58 PM EDT
[#16]
I don't think the Lucky Gunner test suggested much advantage to the +p.  Looking at the penetration, both had one that was somewhat deeper and may have skewed the "average" results some, not as big a spread as many of the others though.  Also if velocity were a driving factor in your choice, many of the other rounds were notably faster.  Haven't tried either in my 1911 and will be getting a CZ 97b out of California jail soon.  Not sure when or which I'll try first.  My convenient local indoor range has ammo type restrictions so I'll probably be dealing with fmj in the new one for a while and then it may come down to price and availability.
Link Posted: 2/13/2017 9:35:26 AM EDT
[#17]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


You're cherry picking results.

Both had adequate penatration and expansion. Yes the non +p expanded 0.06" more. The +p penatrated .9" more.

I can't tell the difference in recoil and when it comes to bullet performance around things like windshields and car doors more often then not the faster round will have less deflection on the off side and better performance.
View Quote


This is really busy, and you will most likely have to download it and zoom in to see the data.  this is factory data and it shows both HST 230g underpenetrate after going through glass.  If glass is a MAIN concern you are better off without HST.  Best through glass is Gold Dot, but it under penetrates in bare gel.  The +p

Direct link if easier to cut and paste to get the image is http://i942.photobucket.com/albums/ad262/gusandson/Firearms/Ballistic%20Data/AllBallisticDataFactory2_zpsf3764bd3.png



Doc Roberts had one test where +p out performed standard, and one where it underperformed.



I believe all these tests were full sized guns (Doc R used 1911's, I think the factory test was full sized) and Lucky Gunner used short barrels.

I'll admit, when I did the research and made those spreadsheets a few years back I recall thinking +p was no better.  It does look like it performs better, but not a whole lot.

I chose 230g HST since it is the best performer in bare gel.  I could go either way on standard/+p but chose +p for less recoil/flash with only a slight loss in wound volume.  I think my chances of shooting through glass/car doors is much lower than my chance of not doing the same.  I live in Florida so I choose bare gel test results over heavy clothing test results.  You can call that "cherry picking" the data, I'll call it carefully reviewing the data and choosing the best performing round for my circumstances.
Link Posted: 2/13/2017 10:30:00 AM EDT
[#18]
I'd go with standard man.

I've never bought into that +P/+P+ crap. A little extra powder isn't gona have any extra "ouch" effect.

None of those high pressure rounds are SAAMI regulated either.
Even if it's from a solid manufacturer like Federal I wouldn't wana risk screwing up my gun or putting unnecessary amounts of wear on it.
Link Posted: 2/13/2017 10:32:53 AM EDT
[#19]
I was shooting 1911s once late in the day with my back to the sun. FMJ reflected the sun and I could walk them into the plate I was shooting at as they were going slow enough......no data to support it but I prefer HST +P because of that experience as it just didnt seem very reassuring.

Was fun though as a spent 200 rds doing trick shots
Link Posted: 2/13/2017 10:47:14 AM EDT
[#20]
I don't choose my carry ammunition based on glass performance. And no I shouldn't either.
Link Posted: 2/14/2017 10:33:39 AM EDT
[#21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


This is really busy, and you will most likely have to download it and zoom in to see the data.  this is factory data and it shows both HST 230g underpenetrate after going through glass.  If glass is a MAIN concern you are better off without HST.  Best through glass is Gold Dot, but it under penetrates in bare gel.  The +p

Direct link if easier to cut and paste to get the image is http://i942.photobucket.com/albums/ad262/gusandson/Firearms/Ballistic%20Data/AllBallisticDataFactory2_zpsf3764bd3.png

http://i942.photobucket.com/albums/ad262/gusandson/Firearms/Ballistic%20Data/AllBallisticDataFactory2_zpsf3764bd3.png

Doc Roberts had one test where +p out performed standard, and one where it underperformed.

http://i942.photobucket.com/albums/ad262/gusandson/Firearms/Ballistic%20Data/DocRobertsData_zps5ab3ed22.png

I believe all these tests were full sized guns (Doc R used 1911's, I think the factory test was full sized) and Lucky Gunner used short barrels.

I'll admit, when I did the research and made those spreadsheets a few years back I recall thinking +p was no better.  It does look like it performs better, but not a whole lot.

I chose 230g HST since it is the best performer in bare gel.  I could go either way on standard/+p but chose +p for less recoil/flash with only a slight loss in wound volume.  I think my chances of shooting through glass/car doors is much lower than my chance of not doing the same.  I live in Florida so I choose bare gel test results over heavy clothing test results.  You can call that "cherry picking" the data, I'll call it carefully reviewing the data and choosing the best performing round for my circumstances.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:


You're cherry picking results.

Both had adequate penatration and expansion. Yes the non +p expanded 0.06" more. The +p penatrated .9" more.

I can't tell the difference in recoil and when it comes to bullet performance around things like windshields and car doors more often then not the faster round will have less deflection on the off side and better performance.


This is really busy, and you will most likely have to download it and zoom in to see the data.  this is factory data and it shows both HST 230g underpenetrate after going through glass.  If glass is a MAIN concern you are better off without HST.  Best through glass is Gold Dot, but it under penetrates in bare gel.  The +p

Direct link if easier to cut and paste to get the image is http://i942.photobucket.com/albums/ad262/gusandson/Firearms/Ballistic%20Data/AllBallisticDataFactory2_zpsf3764bd3.png

http://i942.photobucket.com/albums/ad262/gusandson/Firearms/Ballistic%20Data/AllBallisticDataFactory2_zpsf3764bd3.png

Doc Roberts had one test where +p out performed standard, and one where it underperformed.

http://i942.photobucket.com/albums/ad262/gusandson/Firearms/Ballistic%20Data/DocRobertsData_zps5ab3ed22.png

I believe all these tests were full sized guns (Doc R used 1911's, I think the factory test was full sized) and Lucky Gunner used short barrels.

I'll admit, when I did the research and made those spreadsheets a few years back I recall thinking +p was no better.  It does look like it performs better, but not a whole lot.

I chose 230g HST since it is the best performer in bare gel.  I could go either way on standard/+p but chose +p for less recoil/flash with only a slight loss in wound volume.  I think my chances of shooting through glass/car doors is much lower than my chance of not doing the same.  I live in Florida so I choose bare gel test results over heavy clothing test results.  You can call that "cherry picking" the data, I'll call it carefully reviewing the data and choosing the best performing round for my circumstances.


No, thanks for that. I appreciate the chart. I was only referencing that one test. Your work on collecting results from multiple test helps me and everyone else make a much more informed decision.

Eta. In regards to glass/barriers. IME when bullets start flying people hide behind things.

We all practice shooting at static targets most of the time but that's not real life. At least that's my rationale.
Link Posted: 2/14/2017 12:08:18 PM EDT
[#22]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I was shooting 1911s once late in the day with my back to the sun. FMJ reflected the sun and I could walk them into the plate I was shooting at as they were going slow enough......no data to support it but I prefer HST +P because of that experience as it just didnt seem very reassuring.

Was fun though as a spent 200 rds doing trick shots
View Quote


And you couldn't see the +P?  Or you didn't fire any?  With the sun BEHIND the targets on my last outing myself and two shooting buddies could all see 7.62x39 FMJ out of an AK on every shot. That was the first time I'd seen it with that round, but I can see supersonic 9mm as well pretty much any time the sun is right.  230gr standard pressure .45 is a slow moving round, and it can be shocking the first time you realize you can actually see bullets in flight when the conditions are right, but that doesn't mean anything about their terminal performance.

In the interest of contributing to the thread, worrying about a fraction of an inch or two difference in expansion or penetration is secondary to shootability. Some people shoot +P as well as standard, and if you can do that then you can argue about the minutia of the actual bullet performance. But for most of us who are a little slower with +P, even if you don't want to admit it (check it with a shot timer), the ability to get that follow up shot (or two or three) on target a fraction of a second faster will almost certainly make more of a difference than the fractionally better performance of the first round.  This is of course based on statistics and probability, and there are always exceptions. Shoot em both. If you feel fine with how well you shoot +P, load em up. But if you are noticeably better with standard, I'd say stick with that. My $0.02 anyway.
Link Posted: 2/20/2017 12:28:05 AM EDT
[#23]
I originally bought a bunch of the +p when it came out because I was using it in a Sig 220 Compact. I traded that out for an M&P 45 full size so I replaced it with standard pressure.

IMHO, .45 sucks out of anything less than a 4 inch barrel and needs all the help it can get in the velocity department.
Link Posted: 2/20/2017 12:43:43 AM EDT
[#24]
I don't think it matters that much. I use standard pressure and I'm sure it'll get the job done. Some feel better about having a little extra +P power, if so go for it. Most don't notice a difference when shooting standard vs +P either. 
Link Posted: 2/22/2017 12:02:42 PM EDT
[#25]
Follow up shots always seem slower with +P.  That is the only (and good enough for me) reason why I went with standard pressure in my P220.
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