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Posted: 12/26/2016 11:14:35 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well I'm not going to find out, I'm not taking that chance even during a good shoot. Until a Dr Fackler type comes in and puts all of the relative data down if an FMJ from a .380 could not be harmful, and we don't have any of those here for a fact, just arm-chairing experts in their own minds, I'll stick with JHP's so there can be no way a lawyer is attached to it. I get what your saying, but don't think for a minute there is "no way a lawyer is attached to it ". Under high stress things change; the likelihood of you missing completely goes way up, having the gun grab and wrestled with causing a stray shot, etc. It's a good thing to have confidence in your equipment and ability, but foolish to think in such black and white terms. |
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Posted: 12/26/2016 11:45:43 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I get what your saying, but don't think for a minute there is "no way a lawyer is attached to it ". Under high stress things change; the likelihood of you missing completely goes way up, having the gun grab and wrestled with causing a stray shot, etc. It's a good thing to have confidence in your equipment and ability, but foolish to think in such black and white terms. Just a thought was not meant to trigger our internet experts here. Good lord... |
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Posted: 12/27/2016 8:26:33 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's also foolish to add one more thing to go wrong with FMJ's. Just a thought was not meant to trigger our internet experts here. Good lord... Welcome to ARFCOM. 
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Posted: 12/30/2016 3:11:07 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well I'm not going to find out, I'm not taking that chance even during a good shoot. Until a Dr Fackler type comes in and puts all of the relative data down if an FMJ from a .380 could not be harmful, and we don't have any of those here for a fact, just arm-chairing experts in their own minds, I'll stick with JHP's so there can be no way a lawyer is attached to it. Sounds great in theory but there are plenty of gel tests to show JHP do not expand and may over penetrate just like FMJ. Shooting JHP will not save your bacon if you harm a bystander. |
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Posted: 12/30/2016 3:44:32 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Sounds great in theory but there are plenty of gel tests to show JHP do not expand and may over penetrate just like FMJ. Shooting JHP will not save your bacon if you harm a bystander. |
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Posted: 12/30/2016 10:09:41 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You said a whole lot of nothing just to try and have the last word in. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Sounds great in theory but there are plenty of gel tests to show JHP do not expand and may over penetrate just like FMJ. Shooting JHP will not save your bacon if you harm a bystander. Nice personal attack but let's try to stay on track and answer questions with data. Show pictures of your gel tests. Make sure to show ones with JHP and denim. See the attached tests that was already linked by Derek45 earlier in this thread: Lucky Gunner tests Note in the Lucky Gunner tests linked, the 380 Hydra Shok has the highest penetration (25.6") of any load tested. Please explain to me how this is safer than FMJ? |
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Posted: 12/30/2016 10:49:14 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nice personal attack but let's try to stay on track and answer questions with data. Show pictures of your gel tests. Make sure to show ones with JHP and denim. See the attached tests that was already linked by Derek earlier: Lucky Gunner tests Note in the Lucky Gunner tests linked, the 380 Hydra Shok has the highest penetration (25.6") of any load tested. Please explain to me how this is safer than FMJ? And you're basing your judgments on a tests done in Clear Ballistics which will deceivingly show more penetration than actual ballistic gelatin blocks using animal based protein products to make an actual real world human density that doesn't look as pretty as something that is the wrong way to test rounds in for a media. So with that said and the irrelevancy of your argument proven to be what it is, a farce, I'm not going to waste my time showing the data performed to an obviously triggered troll from the internet who will argue to death over an internet persona ego that is bruised over a self induced imaginary slight. |
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Posted: 12/30/2016 11:02:16 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So you just admitted to hunting over bait? Thanks for clarifying it, we're done here as your reply was flippant enough of a warning indicator that I should have seen it prior to responding but didn't. And you're basing your judgments on a tests done in Clear Ballistics which will deceivingly show more penetration than actual ballistic gelatin blocks using animal based protein products to make an actual real world human density that doesn't look as pretty as something that is the wrong way to test rounds in for a media. So with that said and the irrelevancy of your argument proven to be what it is, a farce, I'm not going to waste my time showing the data performed to an obviously triggered troll from the internet who will argue to death over an internet persona ego that is bruised over a self induced imaginary slight. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Nice personal attack but let's try to stay on track and answer questions with data. Show pictures of your gel tests. Make sure to show ones with JHP and denim. See the attached tests that was already linked by Derek earlier: Lucky Gunner tests Note in the Lucky Gunner tests linked, the 380 Hydra Shok has the highest penetration (25.6") of any load tested. Please explain to me how this is safer than FMJ? And you're basing your judgments on a tests done in Clear Ballistics which will deceivingly show more penetration than actual ballistic gelatin blocks using animal based protein products to make an actual real world human density that doesn't look as pretty as something that is the wrong way to test rounds in for a media. So with that said and the irrelevancy of your argument proven to be what it is, a farce, I'm not going to waste my time showing the data performed to an obviously triggered troll from the internet who will argue to death over an internet persona ego that is bruised over a self induced imaginary slight. Lolz. You crack me up. You made a nonsensical statement and I disagreed with it. You then accused me of just arguing to get the last word. I stuck to facts and you refuted nothing. I am not the one that was triggered, and I am not the one "hunting over bait" as you put it. I was trying to have a fact-based exchange. |
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Posted: 12/31/2016 12:42:06 PM EDT
[#9]
please behave, don't make me pull this website over!
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Posted: 12/31/2016 3:25:00 PM EDT
[#10]
I was keeping up with this thread till all the garbage derailment post took place.
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Posted: 12/31/2016 5:40:50 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I was keeping up with this thread till all the garbage derailment post took place. So you figured you'd derail it more? |
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Posted: 1/2/2017 7:31:51 AM EDT
[#12]
Any thoughts or experiences with Cor Bon 90gr JHP?
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Posted: 1/2/2017 1:14:33 PM EDT
[#13]
It's got good numbers:
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/380auto.html Don't know how it performs in gel, however. |
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Posted: 1/2/2017 1:24:28 PM EDT
[#14]
I went with Critical Defense for my lcp after reading the lucky gunner test results. It seemed like they had a good balance of meeting penetration minimum, and had reliable controlled expansion.
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Posted: 1/2/2017 8:58:37 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's got good numbers: http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/380auto.html Don't know how it performs in gel, however. |
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Posted: 1/3/2017 11:59:22 AM EDT
[#16]
I'm not a fan of Critical Defense in any caliber with the exception of .380. It is the most consistent and best performing option I have seen. I really had high hopes for the gold dots and hst, but they are very inconsistent in their performance.
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Posted: 1/5/2017 6:41:56 PM EDT
[#17]
G19
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Posted: 1/6/2017 1:11:11 AM EDT
[#18]
Federal HST
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Posted: 1/9/2017 12:17:53 PM EDT
[#20]
I like HST in other calibers, but here is the Lucky Gunner result . . . 4 layers denim, and Ballistic gel...
penetrated 22.5" http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#380ACP |
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Posted: 1/9/2017 12:19:16 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Any thoughts or experiences with Cor Bon 90gr JHP? Lucky gunner test . . .21.9" penetration 
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Posted: 1/9/2017 12:20:29 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Now that this thread seems to be back on track, Let me post my opinion on the 380 ammo bandwagon. I know a lot of you here are against the 20 round boxes, However the new Federal HST Micro 99 grain may not give a lot of advantage over the regular HST, but I will take that small advantage because in self defense I want all the advantages I can get. |
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Posted: 1/9/2017 12:28:26 PM EDT
[#23]
Ball or hard cast.
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Posted: 1/9/2017 7:44:32 PM EDT
[#24]
The problem with test are you can have 20 different testers and 20 different results. Here is a test showing perfect expansion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayQE_UoVu0A&sns=em I give up on making the link live. |
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Posted: 1/9/2017 9:35:15 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The problem with test are you can have 20 different testers and 20 different results. Here is a test showing perfect expansion. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayQE_UoVu0A&sns=em  Federal Premium 380 99gr HST I give up on making the link live. It says right around 5mins in that they don't get to the FBI required 12" penetration. more like 10" with these mouse guns, I'll take penetration over expansion every time. |
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Posted: 1/10/2017 1:08:43 PM EDT
[#26]
I'm unsure why when there is a 380 conversation going these two points come up:
1) Over penetration 2) JHP It sounds like a oxymoron because in reality what people are saying is that they understand the 380 is underpowered, so they try to use an even more underpowered round to compensate for a perceived "over penetration" but at the same time cause deep wound penetration. The question is why are so many people being blown away by over penetration? How many cases in the last, let's say decade, did someone who used their self-defense pistol managed to harm others by over penetration? I would say close to 0, if any. Just a note, in many countries of the world they cannot use "military" or HP ammo (9mm, .45, .357, etc, etc) so they are limited to a .380 which happens to be their most powerful choice. With that said, these people managed just fine with the .380 using FMJs. It doesn't over penetrate like the gel test suggests because the gel test acts as pure "skin" not actual body penetration. 12 inches of gel through denim layers equate roughly from your ribs to your heart. So I would say 8 inches would probably equate to surface damage, possibly a bleed out or collapsed lung at worse. I am unsure why GSL calls us "arm chair commandos" when he did a backyard test of his own that he doesn't want to share. It seems like he provided no actual real world data to state that FMJ is a bad choice other than using some sort of unknown test he did in the backyard. Federal, Remington, etc, etc all know that the .380 market segment is growing but people have concerns about over penetration using a underpowered round. So they play into this with various premium loads that make it less powerful. I wouldn't be surprised if someday there is a class action lawsuit especially if many families end up with ineffective weapons and end up being killed. |
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Posted: 1/10/2017 2:14:19 PM EDT
[#27]
This thread was put back on track, your derailment attempt has been reported.
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Posted: 1/10/2017 2:26:32 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This thread was put back on track, your derailment attempt has been reported. I'm unsure how it is a derailment? I only came back to this thread after a couple of weeks and if a discussion about 380 and FMJ is somehow a "derailment" then I am unsure where exactly such a conversation could be held? Plus I don't get how you can make such a bogus claim, call us armchair commandos, then report anyone who disagrees with you? A discussion on FMJ vs premium rounds is a valid discussion. A topic that I think is important to any discussion. |
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Posted: 1/10/2017 2:40:17 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm unsure how it is a derailment? I only came back to this thread after a couple of weeks and if a discussion about 380 and FMJ is somehow a "derailment" then I am unsure where exactly such a conversation could be held? Plus I don't get how you can make such a bogus claim, call us armchair commandos, then report anyone who disagrees with you? A discussion on FMJ vs premium rounds is a valid discussion. A topic that I think is important to any discussion. I'm not going to feed your attempt. Consider this my last response about this. |
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Posted: 1/10/2017 2:47:41 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Read what the site staff posted after what had lead up to it. I'm not going to feed your attempt. Consider this my last response about this. I don't see any staff posts on this thread but I'll take your word for it. I just won't have the discussion with you any longer but will be open to anyone else looking to have a FMJ vs premium load discussion. |
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Posted: 1/10/2017 7:54:52 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't see any staff posts on this thread but I'll take your word for it. I just won't have the discussion with you any longer but will be open to anyone else looking to have a FMJ vs premium load discussion. FMJ is the easy answer in .380". There are only a handful of .380" loads that will get both minimum 12" penetration & reliable expansion. Reliable expansion may vary by season, depending on temperature and what you're expecting your opposition to be wearing. I really am not worried about making a hole all the way through the fella I'm shooting @. If it has come to a point where I'm legally allowed to attempt to surgically lower his blood pressure, then a hole all the way through him is better than a blind one. The chances of me hitting someone standing directly behind him are far lower than me accidentally hitting someone standing right next to him. |
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Posted: 1/10/2017 9:31:57 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
FMJ is the easy answer in .380". There are only a handful of .380" loads that will get both minimum 12" penetration & reliable expansion. Reliable expansion may vary by season, depending on temperature and what you're expecting your opposition to be wearing. I really am not worried about making a hole all the way through the fella I'm shooting @. If it has come to a point where I'm legally allowed to attempt to surgically lower his blood pressure, then a hole all the way through him is better than a blind one. The chances of me hitting someone standing directly behind him are far lower than me accidentally hitting someone standing right next to him. That's precisely what I am thinking as well. I just find it a bit unrealistic that a innocent bystander would be directly behind someone trying to do you harm. Even with a JHP, there's a chance his clothe would clog the hole and cause it to behave similarly to a FMJ. I think any time you shoot, you assume risk and that risk increases the more times you have to shoot. So why risk a shallow penetration and having to shoot more than once? With such low round count in a .380 you best hope to reach vital organs as oppose to worrying about hypothetical bystanders. Even with a extra magazine you're still short of most double stacked 9mms. I usually go with Black Hills FMJ or the Buffalo Bore stuff. |
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Posted: 1/11/2017 3:44:01 PM EDT
[#33]
In my small LCP I mix Critical Defense and ball in the magazine.
My wife's G42 gets fmj only as I don't want her to have to worry about a jam. Her Bersa gets nothing but Critical Defense. Not too worried about bystanders. There was a case a few years ago where two thugs did a home invasion on four young adults. After they finished having fun they took them to a ball park and had them kneel. Each a got a .380 in the head. The girl that survived was wearing a hard plastic barrette in her hair. The .380 round bounced off of the barrette. It knocked her out but she lived to testify against the scum. If a .380 passes through a body, it's going to loose a lot of energy. |
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Posted: 1/11/2017 5:08:02 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In my small LCP I mix Critical Defense and ball in the magazine. My wife's G42 gets fmj only as I don't want her to have to worry about a jam. Her Bersa gets nothing but Critical Defense. Not too worried about bystanders. There was a case a few years ago where two thugs did a home invasion on four young adults. After they finished having fun they took them to a ball park and had them kneel. Each a got a .380 in the head. The girl that survived was wearing a hard plastic barrette in her hair. The .380 round bounced off of the barrette. It knocked her out but she lived to testify against the scum. If a .380 passes through a body, it's going to loose a lot of energy. |
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Posted: 1/11/2017 5:17:53 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Speer Gold Dot ^^^ This is what I have. In older pistols like my PPK you can't always use just any .380 HP bullet. |
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Posted: 1/11/2017 5:23:21 PM EDT
[#36]
Interesting
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Posted: 1/15/2017 7:20:47 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
FMJ is the easy answer in .380". There are only a handful of .380" loads that will get both minimum 12" penetration & reliable expansion. Reliable expansion may vary by season, depending on temperature and what you're expecting your opposition to be wearing. I really am not worried about making a hole all the way through the fella I'm shooting @. If it has come to a point where I'm legally allowed to attempt to surgically lower his blood pressure, then a hole all the way through him is better than a blind one. The chances of me hitting someone standing directly behind him are far lower than me accidentally hitting someone standing right next to him. |
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Posted: 1/15/2017 7:35:29 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Is the G42 jamming with anything but FMJ? No, she's not had any jams in either gun. And Critical Defense is practically fmj with the poly tip. I guess I'm just being paranoid. |
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Posted: 1/15/2017 11:59:06 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Would you say it's potential is extremely specific, e.g. 100 degree weather, wearing only t-shirts and jeans or a swimsuit types of situation with expert shot placement required or is that too extreme an interpretation? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: FMJ is the easy answer in .380". There are only a handful of .380" loads that will get both minimum 12" penetration & reliable expansion. Reliable expansion may vary by season, depending on temperature and what you're expecting your opposition to be wearing. I really am not worried about making a hole all the way through the fella I'm shooting @. If it has come to a point where I'm legally allowed to attempt to surgically lower his blood pressure, then a hole all the way through him is better than a blind one. The chances of me hitting someone standing directly behind him are far lower than me accidentally hitting someone standing right next to him. Would you say it's potential is extremely specific, e.g. 100 degree weather, wearing only t-shirts and jeans or a swimsuit types of situation with expert shot placement required or is that too extreme an interpretation? If you live with 6 months of winter, your attacker is probably going to be wearing a coat. FMJ or Hornady Critical Defense. If you live in Miami, you have a lot more options in hollowpoints. http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#380ACP 
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Posted: 1/16/2017 1:23:14 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No, she's not had any jams in either gun. And Critical Defense is practically fmj with the poly tip. I guess I'm just being paranoid. The early G42 had a problem where a partially loaded magazine would lift the slide stop mid-fire using certain ammo type. The G42 will lock to the rear after firing because the slide catch drifts into the magazine touching the bullet nose. Glock has since made some modifications to the G42 to prevent this assuming it is not shooter induced such as touching the slide stop or limp wrist shooting. If you happen to know the G42's "birth date" and it is in the year late 15, or 16, then you should have the most recent revision for your G42. At the base of your magazine there may be a number 01, 02, 03. If yours had a 03 on it then you have a updated magazine. If you can compare a 03 to a 02, you'll notice the area where the slide stop catches is different and a little more fat to prevent the slide catch from drifting inwards touching the tip of the bullet. The slide catch/release tab also may have a number to it along the sides (you'll have to take the slide catch out to read it). If it has a 03, you have the most recent revision. If you don't have any 01, 02, 03 number at the end, you have a early model. If your G42 has a 03 revision to it, then you are good to as far as using pretty much ANY ammo out there. Otherwise you'd have to use a very slim nose rounds like a Federal hydra shok 380. Or you can simply send it back to glock and they'll update it for you giving you the 03 revision trigger assembly, slide stop, and magazine. |
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Posted: 1/16/2017 5:56:33 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The early G42 had a problem where a partially loaded magazine would lift the slide stop mid-fire using certain ammo type. The G42 will lock to the rear after firing because the slide catch drifts into the magazine touching the bullet nose. Glock has since made some modifications to the G42 to prevent this assuming it is not shooter induced such as touching the slide stop or limp wrist shooting. SNIP If your G42 has a 03 revision to it, then you are good to as far as using pretty much ANY ammo out there. Otherwise you'd have to use a very slim nose rounds like a Federal hydra shok 380. Or you can simply send it back to glock and they'll update it for you giving you the 03 revision trigger assembly, slide stop, and magazine. This place rocks! 
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Posted: 1/17/2017 1:13:59 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There is a lot of marketing hype. There is also a lot of hype or biased opinions coming from the 2A community whom are the end users, some who are keyboard experts who think that working part time at some range makes them instantly a know it all when they're laughably not or the guy who takes a hater's or fan favorite's opinion as the gospel and then tries to spread the disinformation further out. Then there are folks like me who refuses to listen to conjectured opinions being thrown as facts and wants to see for himself what works and what does not. I've done the tests, tnoutdoors9 was my inspiration and with his guidance I started doing things for myself instead of letting fate figure it out. http://i.imgur.com/sGwMKSZ.jpg I know what choked and what hasn't choked. I know what has under performed despite the hype saying contrary and what will work and what will work better. This is an actual science to proof with either a confirmation or a bust. There is more to it than just buying a tool and loading what the internet tells me to use. The internet is wrong so many times and in some cases they were right. But that's the signal to noise ratio that we all have to wade thru. Unless I'm stupid it looks like the HST is the way to go? Did it penetrate enough? |
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Posted: 1/17/2017 1:20:56 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Lolz. You crack me up. You made a nonsensical statement and I disagreed with it. You then accused me of just arguing to get the last word. I stuck to facts and you refuted nothing. I am not the one that was triggered, and I am not the one "hunting over bait" as you put it. I was trying to have a fact-based exchange. I'm not really trying to get involved here but he did some testing and posted pics. That's way more than what most people do. You know what I think when these arguments break out? I want to see the actual numbers of how many innocents have been hit with either errant and over penetrated bullets, in .380 flavor, when a civilian shooting takes place. Just out of curiosity. |
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Posted: 1/18/2017 3:47:03 PM EDT
[#44]
Underwood Xtreme penetrator in a P238, not the +p version though. I might try the +p and see you the recoil is. If I'm out on a walk with the wife spring through fall, I want something that will deal with cujo if I can't take my P320 in 357 sig.
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Posted: 1/21/2017 1:37:09 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm not really trying to get involved here but he did some testing and posted pics. That's way more than what most people do. You know what I think when these arguments break out? I want to see the actual numbers of how many innocents have been hit with either errant and over penetrated bullets, in .380 flavor, when a civilian shooting takes place. Just out of curiosity. You can get some extensive testing results from this page: http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#380ACP Just scroll down to the section: .380 ACP Ballistic Gelatin Tests. However keep in mind these test results will differ very, very greatly depending on your barrel length. That is why the "best" is never applied to .380 pistols and that is why I think FMJ is better overall. For a gun with a 2.25/2.5 inch barrel, you're talking about a huge difference in performance just shortening or lengthening by 1/4 inch. A federal HST in a 3 inch barrel is not going to perform the same in a 2.25 inch barrel. It may improve or it may worsen, you won't know unless you test it yourself or find someone who did. The barrel length plays a significant role in how well (or not) a .380 round will expand after it passes layers of clothes. I too am wondering how many people are getting hurt/killed by over penetration? I only ever heard of such thing from police involved shooting where innocent bystanders are shot. The only difference is that as a LEO you're protected by the local/state government. The worst that would happen is that said person would simply be let go of. This differs from citizens who do not afford such protection. However to date, I have not heard of a case where someone intended to stop a bad guy, and somehow ended up shooting someone in close proximity or behind. |
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