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Posted: 12/25/2005 2:51:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/25/2005 2:53:10 PM EDT by SIMPLYDYNAMIC]
Im trying to match this barrel and bushing and trying to keep from going to a smith for now.

-what is the best way to do this?
-take metal from the raised end of the barrel or from the inside of the bushing to match?

Thanks for any help guys
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 4:15:03 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 4:44:32 PM EDT
I would definitly say the bushing, I have heard mostly to take metal from the bushing but Im curious as to what is the best tool for the job..........Besides a mill!
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 5:03:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/8/2006 7:56:26 PM EDT by hobbs5624]
.
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 7:23:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/25/2005 7:37:25 PM EDT by lilricky2]
Bushing, and I would probably look into a different compensator. Bushing comp's tend to increase slide mass and "percieved" recoil. That's the opposite of what I think you are trying to do. Edited to add: You just need a very small, fine, half round or round file (even Harbor Freight has them) for a normal bushing. Remove a little metal at a time starting at 12 o'clock on the front I.D. of the bushing.

Rick
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 7:33:38 PM EDT
Depends in the slide. If it is a quality brand name (STI, Caspian, Wilson) with a "true" face, any metal removal by other than a professional may affect the performance and accuracy. Go with the comp, it's a lot cheaper to replace if you have an oops! Concurr with the above comment, my experience with one of these comps hinking.gif was not positive.
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 7:43:20 PM EDT
1911 AUTO Barrel Bushing Reamer

"B" Reamer 170-531-002
"B" Adjustable Reamer

Link here
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 7:59:18 PM EDT
Not trying to be a know-it-all but look at the bushing comp guys. Its bore is already oversized to allow it to move rearward with the slide down the barrel. The most he needs to do is take a little metal off at 12 o'clock front and 6 oclock rear on the inside diameter for the barrel to tilt upward when it goes out of battery. My 2 cents.

Rick
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 9:09:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By lilricky2:
Not trying to be a know-it-all but look at the bushing comp guys. Its bore is already oversized to allow it to move rearward with the slide down the barrel. The most he needs to do is take a little metal off at 12 o'clock front and 6 oclock rear on the inside diameter for the barrel to tilt upward when it goes out of battery. My 2 cents.

Rick



No offense, but that's absolutley backwards. 6 o'clock front, and 12 o'clock rear is probably what you meant to say. Also, if he's asking how to fit these, most likely it's because the bushing is undersized. I can't imagine asking how to fit a bushing on a barrel if all it needs is the relief cuts.
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 11:44:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/26/2005 11:48:25 AM EDT by SIMPLYDYNAMIC]
Exactly the bushing is undersized....
so then from what I understand:
-reem the inside to fit the barrel from like .003-.004 from what I have been told
-then make releif cuts in the 6 front and 12 rear right?


I would probably look into a different compensator. Bushing comp's tend to increase slide mass and "percieved" recoil. That's the opposite of what I think you are trying to do.


and as for the above I do not understand....if the round clears the barrel and comp before the slide starts its rearward motion then how does it not do its job? I obviously know a Barrel comp is the better way to go here but I want to limid funds for this project, its pretty much just for fun.
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 12:17:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SIMPLYDYNAMIC:


I would probably look into a different compensator. Bushing comp's tend to increase slide mass and "percieved" recoil. That's the opposite of what I think you are trying to do.


and as for the above I do not understand....if the round clears the barrel and comp before the slide starts its rearward motion then how does it not do its job? I obviously know a Barrel comp is the better way to go here but I want to limid funds for this project, its pretty much just for fun.


You are increasing the mass of the slide. When that mass reaches the end of travel it is transferred to your hand.

At least that is one part of the theory… Slide mass increase also means it isn't going to be moving as fast…

Barrel mass with or w/o comp is also applied to your hand since the barrel moves backward too and the resultant force vector through the retaining pin is directed toward the hand…

Add up all these armchair theories and you would think we were dealing with a tank cannon!

Since it is going to be in your hand, let us know if you notice it.
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 12:22:03 PM EDT
The reason bushing comps do very little to reduce recoil is this. The hole at the end is too large to make an effective gas seal. All it will do is add a little weight to slow down slide velocity. Nothing against anyone else who posted, but it will not increase felt or perceived recoil. Anytime you have more slide mass while shooting the same load, the increased slide mass will serve to dampen felt recoil, though it is by very little.

The way a true barrel compensator with an expansion chamber works is this. As the round leaves the barrel, there is a volume of gas behind it. That gas will expand in 360 degrees as it exits the muzzle. With a comp, it is allowed to expand only slightly before being redirected out the top, usually in a small hole, causing a venturi effect. Like air escaping the end of a balloon, the escaping gas pushes in the opposite direction it is escaping. In the case of a comp, that is down. Also, that volume of gas is moving forward, and hits the front part of the comp, or baffle, pushing forward on the comp. There is a little more recoil reduction there too.

For all this to work, the as must be able to escape the top of the port easier than the front of the comp around the bullet. Therefor, the front exit hole must be barely larger than bullet diameter to form a "gas seal". The exit hole is so large on a bushing comp that almost all the gas that would be used to dampen muzzle flip just escapes out the fron around the bullet. They are a gimmick part that does not do what the manufacturers claim.

Anyway, ream the bushing. I ream until it will just go on the barrel. I then seat it using oil. That means basically lapping it in using only oil, no lapping compound. Once it moves freely, I then cut those reliefs at the 6 front and 12 rear. 12 rear means the rear of the ring that actually contacts the barrel, not the rear most portion of the bushing. Best of luck, and let us know how it turns out.
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 1:14:21 PM EDT
well I just learned something! Thanks Hobbs.
I think I might just go the barrel comp route then.

Any ideas for those for a .45 since I know it not a hight pressure round is there something in perticular I should look for?
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 1:22:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/26/2005 1:34:23 PM EDT by lsmlax006]
http://www.1911forum.com/forums/printthread.php?t=106646

or

http://www.rushusa.com/html/products/sti/barrels-&-comps.html



sorry its not a open link
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 2:53:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/26/2005 2:54:24 PM EDT by Dano523]

Originally Posted By SIMPLYDYNAMIC:
well I just learned something! Thanks Hobbs.
I think I might just go the barrel comp route then.

Any ideas for those for a .45 since I know it not a hight pressure round is there something in perticular I should look for?



My vote would be for a full profile Comp. This will add more forward weight to tame the recoil since the ports alone will not do much on the 45 if your just pushing MPF loads.

Middle unit style (maybe even a little longer)
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 1:31:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/31/2005 1:38:32 PM EDT by lilricky2]
Boy, have I missed this thread. You guys are steering SimplyDynamic way off base.
I understand that a lot of thought and reasoning went into these theories, but most of them are not correct.
1. Hobbs, your fitting method is for a slide assembly that is springing barrels. That is not the problem here. Most of the barrel fit occurs on front I.D. of the bushing. And yes you do work the 6 o'clock position, mostly if the barrel is dragging. Someone may be backwards but it isn't me.

2. Slide mass does effect felt recoil. The bullet and the slide are both under the same moment as far as energy is concerned but the lighter bullet is moving faster, the heavy slide may be moving slower but the forces are equal. Think of it as the difference between a motorcycle or a bus hitting your car.The barrel has very little to do with recoil other than to channel it toward the bullet and slide. In fact, it wants to burst outward.

3. If you are going to ream a new bushing. Ream it until it almost starts then polish it until it slides on by hand. .003-.004 is too much for accuracy but would be acceptable on factory guns.

4. A comp does its job by the way it gathers or alters the use of the energy produced. Specifically, it uses the expanding gas. Basically it alters the timing and changes the way energy is imparted to the slide. This is why race guns need lighter springs than your pistol to cycle properly. Yes, it adds weight and yes it can form gas columns, but, it is not a little retro rocket. The bullet leaves the barrel before the slide has moved .020. If a comp was a gas jet you would have to rest the gun on a table to keep from hitting yourself in the crotch. That may be overstating the idea, but you get the drift. There are other laws of physics that explain this but we would need to fire the gun in outer space to see them at work.

5. Dano is right about the cone comp. It eliminates the need for a bushing. You can lap them in and the slide locks up nicely to barrel or comp. I've built dozens of four chamber comps from 4140 to experiment with on my own guns. Just remember you might need a lighter recoil spring if you have cycling problems.

6. My suggestion would be to measure your barrel o.d. and slide i.d. with micrometers or a good set of calipers and call someone that will make a bushing to your spec's like EGW. This is not an endorsement for them, but they do make bushings in several different "sizes".

All in good fun right guys.Hobbs

Rick

Edited for spellingh.gif
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 11:30:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2006 6:21:20 AM EDT by hobbs5624]
I can quote some very reliable sources on bushing fit if anyone is interested. The relief cuts need to be at the 6 front and 12 rear. I'm not looking to start an online arguement nor flame anyone. SIMPLYDYNAMIC, IM sent.....
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 10:35:20 AM EDT
I am with Hobbs5624 100% on barrel bushing fitting. I build 1911's for a living, not for a hobby. Charles the Gunsmith.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 12:47:38 PM EDT
Not a problem. No quotes necessary, and I am not going to bump pee pee's with someone claiming to be a professional. I respectfully disagree. Gentlemen the floor is all yours.Rick
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 3:14:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By lilricky2:
Not a problem. No quotes necessary, and I am not going to bump pee pee's with someone claiming to be a professional. I respectfully disagree. Gentlemen the floor is all yours.

Rick



No problem. However, reading your posts, it seems to me that you believe that the bushing ID and the barrel OD are parallel when the barrel is locked up, and that it needs a little relief at the 6 rear and 12 front for the barrel to tilt during unlocking. IF that's the case, then I could see why you would say 6 rear and 12 front.

However, the bushing ID and barrel OD are roughly parallel when the gun is out of battery, and the barrel tilts up at the rear during lockup. The face of the bushing is at an angle greater than 90 degrees to the centerline of the bore. In essence, it's pointing downwards in the bushing when the slide is in battery and the barrel is locked up.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 5:23:26 PM EDT
O.K.

http://www.m1911.org/locking.htm
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 5:54:33 PM EDT
Well, I'm not sure what the point of that link was, but the guy who's diagram that is, Jerry Kuhnhausen, wrote two book son 1911s that could be considered the Old and New Testaments. If you have either, you might want to look at his diagrams regarding bushing clearance cuts. Maybe you could teach him a thing or two about bushing fit.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 6:29:36 PM EDT
It's a tjought. Idon't believe my lyin' eyes either.

Rick
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 4:20:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By lilricky2:
It's a tjought. Idon't believe my lyin' eyes either.

Rick



Well, I'm not quite sure what you're hinting at, but, trust me, there is about a 1 degree past 90 degree vertical lockup tilt. I can pull several diagrams from the same guy, and I don't see anything in the link you were so kind to provide that would refute this.

The only reason I'm bothering with any of this is that from time to time people comment on things that they obviously ignorant about. I hate to think someone would take advice from someone who is clearly wrong. Most that spend any time around here know that my intentions are to share information, and that I'm pretty unbiased. If a guy asks about a bushing comp and I dislike them, I only want to provide hiim with accurate info so he does not screw up his gun.

I'm sure your method has worked fine for you, but if it has, it's only been becasue your bushing is sloppy enough to allow for swing up in the first place. I only hope you don't build guns on a professional level. Installing a match bushing is very basic, and the fact that you are so adamant about incorrect fitting procedures is sad.

You can find the proper procedure at the 1911Forum, in the Kuhnhausen books, and at Brownells online. So, for anyone wondering:

Third paragraph from bottom

Link Posted: 1/3/2006 7:26:04 AM EDT
Been staring at your last post wondering why the sudden personal attack when we've been having so much fun. I believe it's my fault. "Who you gonna believe, me or your lyin' eyes" is a friendly form of harrasment here in Texas, especially among ex-grunt/machinist types. I'm guessing we're not at that point in our relationship yet. My sincerest apologies and we'll just leave it at I'm sad, ignorant, unprofessional, and sloppy and I will refrain from any further comment and hopefully typo's.

Rick
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