Bear with me. I know nothing of Smith & Wesson nor have I looked in detail at them before.

Is this the same firearm you are discussing here? M&P M2.0
SKU: 13567

Not to shit on the thread but my Staccato P is shipping today!

No, the SKU you linked is a 10mm optics ready gun.

The 13353 is a 2.0 factory milled for the Aimpoint Acro.

So looking up that SKU sent me on gunbroker just to see if I could find one...and I did! With a buy it now option. So I bought it now. Guess what I just received from the seller:



...so I'll restate that as best I know S&W is being really, really stupid about this SKU.

But it sounds like the advertised the gun before they had clearance to sell it. Which will be fun to untangle.

So the LEO-only is specifically for the ACRO? Does the ACRO have a unique footprint?

ETA: Because if that's the case, this is easily replicated by any civilian, just using a different MRDS.

Not sure why the S&W page says 10mm, but the sku is actually 9mm. Can also be had with the thumb safety & tall sights.
https://gun.deals/search/apachesolr_search/13567

Yes on both counts.

The gun in question is a gun that comes from the factory specifically made for the Acro footprint. The barrel, safety, and trigger mods can be made to any other M&P 2.0.

For me one of the chief appeals of this project was highlighting the stupidity of current optic mounting retardery.

I've got a compact 2.0 CORE with a Holosun on it set up the same way with the Apex bits.

Got it! Thanks!

Who's doing direct milling of M&P slides for an Acro footprint?  Have that footprint directly milled where the shear lug of the optic interfaces with solid metal of the slide makes a lot of sense.

I don’t have the LE MP model that you are talking about, but I do have a performance center model with Apex trigger and it’s one of the best pistols I’ve ever shot.

That said, I am a shitty pistol shooter.

Attached File

So I bet S&W will release the acro cut as an option eventually.

I think they had a specific request and they are just starting small, I'm sure the semi universal CORE design would obviously outsell the optic specific


Aimpoint it quietly soaking up agency orders. I know of some very large agencies friends work at and a few other local ones that are getting Acro P2s/ authorizing them.  Cause frankly they are an awesome option and almost idiot proof.

I'm glad you mentioned that. I'm picking it up this evening. =D

Nice work OP.  I just got a thumb safety 4.25" optics ready 9mm with the newer flat trigger.  Really like the shape over the hinge on my older 9c. It breaks nice but the trigger was very gritty on take-up.  Which is not a big deal,, but annoying. Need to tear it apart and polish the plunger/hole at some point as there seems to be a burr i can feel when depressing the plunger.
But for now,10k + mindless dry fires while I watch movies in the evening have smoothed it out pretty decent
Did some cutting and shaping on the top of the large backstrap insert to fill my large hands but still allow for a high grip.
Mounted a green 508t in a c&h plate on mine as well as a tlr7a.  Only shot about 100rds so far but really like it, will keep the apex barrel in mind if I notice a lack of accuracy.  
Just saw that Smith is releasing a metal (aluminum) frame version that looks interesting, and wished I would have known about before I bought this one.  I'm usually a 1911/cz guy, and even my old sti 2011 has an aluminum grip.  Just like the feel of metal over polymer usually. Oh well,, might pick one up for gaming since this one was for carry anyway

Edited to add vid

The 5" 2.0 optics ready is still LEO only, making me very sad.



I terms of M&P safety, I'm unsure if I'll ultimately stay with the safety or not. Is it better to get a M&P, and add a safety, or is it better to get one with a safety and remove it if I don't like it?

SKU: 11833
https://www.smith-wesson.com/product/mp-9-m20-performance-center?sku=11833

This model is not LE restricted.

Thank you.

Alas that model is ported, and also lacks the new forward slide serrations which I really like.

Guess the front serrations make it LE only.

Huh. I never noticed that. Thanks for pointing that out.

Neckbearding all the VA Stack-a-toes

It’s really easy to remove the safety and put a plug in the frame.

If you think you might want a safety, I’d get one with a safety as a starting point,

I'll say the 2.0 flat trigger setup is much, much improved over the feel of the hinged triggers on M&Ps. It's more than just the trigger, of course, but the trigger on this latest gun is a lot like the Apex duty trigger I installed in the original gun. It's not as smooth or light as the Apex, but it's a damn site better than the stock trigger in the original gun.

It's weird because this last gun I bought has an earlier serial number but it's got the flat trigger and an extractor roll pin that fits flush with the slide.

I'll probably just drop an Apex striker block upgrade in the gun and leave it at that.

I already have the parts to install the thumb safety on the way.

To be honest, I think this is all my OR 2.0 needs. The new flat trigger fixes 99% of the 2.0's trigger problems which is the hinged trigger.
It has more take up and a bit heavier than an APEX Flat but it is decent. The USB will probably get rid of the crunch or whatever you want to call it that mine has.

Let me ask… the B6 @ 25.  Standing off hand.  1 hand grip? 2 hand grip?  From a rest?  What kinda rest.  

How were you able to make out details of the ‘X’ at 25 yards.

Timney > Apex

Seated at a table on a sandbag.



For my eyes in bright sunlight on the range, the white of the X was visible. Dial the dot down to the lowest setting I could see, put the dot in the exact same part of the white of the X for every shot, dot stays there because I'm supporting the butt of the gun on a sandbag and the frame of the gun on another sandbag so the gun isn't moving.



My goal was not to have the lightest possible trigger on an M&P. It was to have a better trigger that was still abundantly mechanically safe. I stick with Apex for that.

Can you quantify what it is about flat vs. hinged triggers you feel is better?  I realize this may have a subjective component, but I'm curious.

The actual trigger press is smoother and shorter, less overtravel.

There's nothing 'unsafe' about a Timney.  Depending how you view things its much safer than the Apex I had that wouldn't fire.  Congrats on your stellar eyesight, the 'white  x' is probably less than .5" while a 3.5moa dot is > .75".  

The hinged trigger places your finger in a more or less fixed position.  Due to the pivot position, travel is an 'upward arch' direction versus straight back.  Flat and aftermarket trigger change the geometry so travel is as close to 90 degrees from the pivot as possible.  Flatter triggers allow for more finger placement positions on the shoe.

In regards to the striker block...

IMHO before spending $$ on anyone's block try the following:

1.  Clean and polish the block channel in the slide
2.  Polish the block to a super shine
3.  Sand the trigger bar and polish where it makes contact with the striker block
4.  1 drop of whatever lube on the plunger/bar interface.

NP3 coated striker blocks are slicker than... @#*#$ on a linoleum floor.

Apex has barrels back in stock.

I’ll agree, mostly. I have a handful of staccatos and m&p 2.0s with Apex barrels and triggers.

My observations are that for mechanical accuracy from a rested position it’s a wash between them. For practical accuracy, shooting standing or in the move the staccato is slightly better, probably just due to being heavier guns and inherently harder to upset with trigger influence. Apex fss triggers at 3.5-4lbs and factory staccato triggers at 4-4.5lbs.

Staccato is definitely easier to run fast, especially the 2019 version 4.15” P. I absolutely love the way that pistol tracks.

Ergos are better on the M&p 2.0. Grip texture is perfect imo. I much prefer the gen 1 2011 grips to the gen 2.

Hitting reloads fast is almost effortless with a 2011, magwell or not, just due to geometry. M&ps aren’t as forgiving.

Reliability I actually have to give to staccato in my experience so far. They’ve eaten everything. The apex barrels seem more sensitive to oal and I’ve had issues with 147s in one of them. Seems to be throated on the short side and the bullet jams the lands. Also had a batch of ammo with primers about .010” from fully seated. The m&p wouldn’t ignite about 20%. About half would go on the second strike. Staccato went bang every time. The worst failure I’ve had with a 2011 is with my 2019 P. The slide to frame fit is the tightest of all of them. The Lucas gun oil I normally use was too heavy and slowed the slide down in 20f temps at a nv class. Ran fine with lighter oil the next night. Both have the occasional failure to lock back. 2011s don’t seem to care about being dirty, but the slide rails do need to be wet.

I have to at least wipe and oil the staccato more often as a carry piece to keep rust at bay as a carry gun. The mag tubes are the only place I’ve seen rust on my m&ps.

They both have good and bad. I look at my apex’d and atei worked 2.0 and it’s more than halfway to the cost of a optics ready staccato.

Nice writeup, thank you.

How is the Apex forward set trigger? Does it approach mediocre 1911 / how does it compare to say a PPQ/VP9 trigger?

Obviously it has more take up than any 1911/2011 trigger but it’s shorter than the stock m&p and has a nice predictable break, which is the single most important thing in a trigger to me. It’s better than some of the crappy/creepy 1911/2011 triggers I’ve felt but not as good as the average. Best striker fired trigger I’ve felt but I only have experience with the stock m&p, some glocks, and I played with a pdp at the nra show. My biggest gripe with the factory m&p trigger is how close it is to the grip before it breaks. Kinda like having a short trigger on a 1911/2011 where as I prefer a long.

Excellent, thank you.

I have that same problem with my P09. Trigger is fantastic, but the damn thing breaks so far back that the tip of my trigger finger can hit the mag release. So I like the idea of the forward set concept of having trigger break more forward.

Mostly agree with this, although the FSS trigger on the few that I have owned = avg to slightly above average 1911 triggers to me. They don't come close to my SACS tuned or DW Valor triggers, but the APEX is damn good and with the polymer one around $100, even better.

Great write up J_W777!

An M&P9c with an Apex kit (the original DCAEK) has been my carry gun for over 10 years.

A month ago I bought a 5" Performance Center that came with a Crimson Trace red dot (my first handgun with an optic), and despite having a much better trigger than the 1.0 - pretty solid, actually - I added an Apex kit.

...Then I saw your post and thought it looked like fun. I bought a 2.0 Compact with a 4" barrel and added the Apex trigger kit and barrel, and a Trijicon RMR.

My observations:

- The triggers on the 2.0s are light years ahead of the 1.0 (and the PC was noticeably smoother than the "regular" 2.0), but the Apex trigger kit is another level. I did get the forward-set triggers for both the PC and 2.0 Compact.

- The trigger safety on the original Apex kit is much smaller than the on the newer kits.

- The grip texture on the 2.0s is much improved, not that I ever had an issue with the 1.0.

- With the stock springs, the PC trigger pull is just a touch over 2lbs on my gauge. Yikes! With Apex's "duty" springs, the Compact has a comfortable, crisp ~4lb break which is similar to my well broken-in 1.0 9c with the original Apex kit.

- Fitting the Apex barrel was easier than I thought. I watched Apex's video and just took my time. The only difficulty I encountered was because I wasn't watching Sonny Crockett.

- I need more practice to get my follow up shots with the optic to the same speed as without.

- I've shot "nice" 1911s and they're objectively better than this setup...but not by much, and certainly no where near the same price point.

- My group isn't as pretty, but I don't have much practice with an optic equipped handgun or bullseye shooting. Also I miscounted and had one bullet left, so I fired that last shot and pulled it a little.

I'll try not to take that personally. Try.  

Good write up JW, as always, thoughtful and interesting.

I have not been bitten by the staccato bug but if someone made a reliable double stack .45 1911 pre-cut for optics...that would get my attention. (That wasn't a bazillion bucks)


Do know an agent who bought a staccato and he's not super impressed with the value to results ratio.  But he's a real shooter.

Perhaps I've poo-pooed S&Ws offerings too much.

I've had the chance to see a number of Stacatto pistols in class now, and the results are quite mixed.

Good example is a Rangemaster Instructor Development Course I assisted with this past weekend. Two Stack-A-Toes in class. One being run by a Master class USPSA shooter who competes as his primary form of recreation and carries a gun on the side just in case. He shot the class with his carry gun, the compact version Stack-A-Toe. The other is a federal officer who bought a Toe because Tactical.

The class involves dropping a lot of partially loaded magazines on the somewhat dusty gravel ground. The Toes did not like this. The USPSA shooter cleaned his magazines at lunch and at night after class and had no problems. The federal guy, who is used to shooting Glocks, M9's, and Sig M17's on duty, didn't clean his magazines twice a day and experienced multiple stoppages. Keep in mind that everyone else in class using Glocks, CZ striker-fired guns, M&P Shields, P320s, and even a Springfield XD and a Dan Wesson single stack 9mm didn't have any problems with their guns and didn't need to clean magazines.

But the Toes? The USPSA guy preventatively maintained his magazines and the person who didn't had his gun shit the bed hard until we broke for lunch and I helped him clean his magazines and followers. By "shit the bed" I mean his magazines repeatedly had the follower hang up in the magazine tube, dropping all tension on the cartridges preventing them from feeding and allowing multiple cartridges to fly out of the magazine into the area between the slide and the barrel locking the gun up pretty hard. It took using a bottle brush to clean the magazine bodies (all that was evident inside them was a little bit of dust, no rocks or similar shit), wiping them out with a lightly lubricated shop towel, wiping down the follower with a little bit of oil to remove all the dust, and then carefully reassembling to get the magazine spring seated correctly and they worked again. Those magazines are $100 a pop, and they are that sensitive. (He experienced multiple failures)

I have also had the chance to see multiple Wilson EDC based guns in various classes over the last couple of years. There were two Wilson EDCs in the same class and both ran without a single hiccup all day. That tends to be what I've seen from the Wilson EDC based guns so far...they just run. You need to lubricate them, which is something Glock people struggle to understand, but assuming you've done that they run.

Bill Wilson may not be everyone's favorite person, but his company has done a lot of work on magazines over the years. It tells you something when Wilson wants to do a double stack 9mm and builds a gun around a Browning/Beretta double stack magazine. And ditches the internal extractor for an external extractor.

Did you notice if the magazine bodies were stamped g3 or did they mention swapping the springs and followers to atlas? It hasn’t caused me any grief so far but anemic mag springs is a known issue for some with the gen 2 mags. G3 marked mags have stronger springs and an updated follower I believe. Atlas +10% springs and followers in gen 2 tubes is the equivalent.

Staccato will probably replace the older mags if they reach out. Their cs is pretty excellent by most all accounts.

Going to disagree slightly with this. I did all of the above on my 4.25" OR 2.0 and while better, it still had a gritty or chunky feeling trigger. Just installed an APEX USB and that is 100% completely gone.
The 2.0 series with the newer flat style trigger and an APEX usb is about 99% perfect. IMO unless you want less pre/over travel and a lighter pull of the FFS kit, then the $40 usb is all you need.
Again, this is all my opinion. I like my Flat Kit in my non OR gun and while the polymer Flat trigger takes out a lot of the cost of the trigger, Ill still take $40 over $100ish on a non Competition gun.

I agree with all of this.  I have 5 M&Ps Roth various jeceks of Apex parts.

Apex striker block is the key upgrade IME.

Awfully funny how ideas keep coming round and round. Bullseye versus silhouette. Which scoring area? B27? Ever compare a full size B27 to a person? LOL.

Aim small miss small.

Gee. Wonder where I heard that before. (No. It wasn't the movie The Patriot LOL)

There is a difference shooting paper and shooting a reactive target that also moves....and THINKS.

There is a difference between teaching someone basic marksmanship...

and gunfighting. One skill however, builds on another.

If you practice at far targets, the up close/bigger targets get easier. And so do the far targets LOL. Same goes for practicing on small targets. Then you start picking the part of the little dot to shoot at. Upper right "corner", etc. Do iy slow, then faster, faster, faster. (Two people taught me this trick, one was a Navy Master Chief and the other was a Bondurant driving instructor) push it till you wipe out, take a breath, repeat but just a little slower at the speed just below where you lost it. Then push until you "peak out". Repeat.

Dot drill. Dot torture. Give it a spin. You'll see.

Iron sights versus red dot. Piecesparts. Revolversemininifortyfiveblahblahblah LOL.

Shoot the target but there's more to it. Hit a vital area. Put the target down or stopped before they do it to you. Train like you play in the real world. For most of us, equipment really doesn't matter but sometimes, it's the thought that counts. Use what works for ya.