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Posted: 3/29/2006 10:09:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/29/2006 10:13:59 AM EDT by scottryan]
As a fellow SIG owner, I am really upset with them over the past few years.

1. First of all the DAK trigger is not the greatest think to ever hit the firearms market. There were DAO pistols before it and there will be other DAO pistols in the future. It's nice to have different firing control options but I'm fucking tired of hearing about it. Also, I fail to see how everyone has used a SA or SA/DA pistol for the past 100 years but SWAT and other tactical operators are incable of using a SA or SA/DA and need a DAK.

2. The SIG Mosquito. We've already established this is a piece of crap.

3. The Crapco SIG 556. It's was clear to SIG we wanted a traditional 550 series and not cheap plastic crap. I fail to see how someone can justfy buying a SIG556 for $1300 when they can by an Armalite AR-180B for $500 and get the exact same thing except for a chrome lined barrel. Don't try to tell me the SIG comes with a bunch of extras like a railed handguard. Those handguards are not in the same league as a KAC, DD, LaRue, etc model

4. They refuse to sell more P226Rs with the treaded barrel

5. I open the new 2006 catalogue and see SIG bragging about who uses their pistols. I see one of those who uses there product is the ATF. Yeah, that really wants to make me buy your product when I see you are proud to arm the people who strip away my RKBA.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 10:15:48 AM EDT
Yep, SIG is starting to act like H&K.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 10:58:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/29/2006 11:09:56 AM EDT by pfccypret]
ATF just enforces the law, they don't make it.

My city dealt with them when we had several large arsons in town....their agents are good people.

As for the original topic. I think Sig is trying to focus way too hard on the LE/Govt markets. As I cop, I want to buy a new P226 with the rails and all that soon. I'm even eyeing the tactical X-Five. But as a gun fan, I'd like get see actual new stuff instead of "Super uber awesome tactical version" of the same guns over and over again. Or hell, I'd actually like to just see a plain Sig P226 with no rails, no special features for sell...but you can't get that. Who's idea is it to have 30 versions of every pistol, EXCEPT for the orginal no frills model.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 11:12:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By pfccypret:
ATF just enforces the law, they don't make it.

My city dealt with them when we had several large arsons in town....their agents are good people.



for the most part, you're right.

there are plenty of agents who've kept the jack-booted thuggery alive and well, which is quite unfortunate. look up the VA gunshow stunts they pulled last year.

but again, in my own personal experience, the Omaha and (limited personal experience) Kansas City branches seem to be good people for the most part. there might be a "holier than thou" attitude here and there, but #1: I follow the current laws. granted i do my best to lobby to get them changed, but they're still there and like it or not i have to respect that until they change. #2: they only seem interested in the people who violate the law with malice and forethought.

But again, those are just my own personal experiences. Good or bad, the actions of a few don't represent the whole department. The chiefs in DC might be arschlochs for all i know. I haven't had to deal with them so my own personal opinion is that they're federal employees just like me with a job to do.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 12:16:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pfccypret:
ATF just enforces the law, they don't make it.



Link Posted: 3/29/2006 12:25:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pfccypret:
ATF just enforces the law, they don't make it.




gee, maybe you should tell them
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 12:46:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pfccypret:
ATF just enforces the law, they don't make it.



Bullshit.

They are give carte blanche to create limitations, to interpret the existing regulations and to interfere with our constitutionally protected second amendment rights.

They make the laws without being held accountable as an elected official would.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 4:04:49 PM EDT
you already made a thread about this in GD... is it really neccisary to have another one here?


www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=450268

Link Posted: 3/29/2006 5:20:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By chips:
you already made a thread about this in GD... is it really neccisary to have another one here?


www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=450268




I had it posted here first.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 8:31:47 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 9:49:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bigcraig:
Yep, SIG is starting to act like H&K.



I think they're more like S&W, have you seen how many variants they have now? What, new gun of the week sales coming up? It's the same shit, different finish.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 10:04:44 PM EDT
Dont forget about their switch to MIM manufacturing process for many of the small parts in their new guns. This started about the time they landed the deal with Homeland Security and had to crank out a shitload of guns ASAP. MIM is a cheaper way to make these parts--not a better way.

I hate to say it but Sig is much like Smith and Wesson both have cheapened their products . Id rather buy used Sigs and used Smith revolvers.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 11:29:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SIGNAL4L:
Dont forget about their switch to MIM manufacturing process for many of the small parts in their new guns. This started about the time they landed the deal with Homeland Security and had to crank out a shitload of guns ASAP. MIM is a cheaper way to make these parts--not a better way.

I hate to say it but Sig is much like Smith and Wesson both have cheapened their products . Id rather buy used Sigs and used Smith revolvers.



Pretty sure they don't use MIM parts, as it specifically says on their site that they don't. I lament the loss of the non rail guns, and the unavailability of non rail stainless frame guns. But for the most part, SIG is kicking ass right now. With the 556, the many variations of the GSR, and more classics coming out in SA only, I think they are making some good product.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 4:06:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Teknic:

Originally Posted By scottryan:
As a fellow SIG owner, I am really upset with them over the past few years.

1. First of all the DAK trigger is not the greatest think to ever hit the firearms market. There were DAO pistols before it and there will be other DAO pistols in the future. It's nice to have different firing control options but I'm fucking tired of hearing about it. Also, I fail to see how everyone has used a SA or SA/DA pistol for the past 100 years but SWAT and other tactical operators are incable of using a SA or SA/DA and need a DAK. The DAK is great trigger. I've switched my personal carry to a DAK. I've put a few thousand rounds down range and I'm tickled pink

2. The SIG Mosquito. We've already established this is a piece of crap. The latest productions have been much better

3. The Crapco SIG 556. It's was clear to SIG we wanted a traditional 550 series and not cheap plastic crap. I fail to see how someone can justfy buying a SIG556 for $1300 when they can by an Armalite AR-180B for $500 and get the exact same thing except for a chrome lined barrel. Don't try to tell me the SIG comes with a bunch of extras like a railed handguard. Those handguards are not in the same league as a KAC, DD, LaRue, etc model What you saw isn't the final version so you have no clue what the real rail will look like. I know for a fact they have been in contact with some of the top rail MFGs. Also, if you think you can compare a SIG 556 to an Armalite AR-180B, this rifle isn't for you.

4. They refuse to sell more P226Rs with the treaded barrel - There's Plenty of Dealer that have TACTICALS left, including me

5. I open the new 2006 catalogue and see SIG bragging about who uses their pistols. I see one of those who uses there product is the ATF. Yeah, that really wants to make me buy your product when I see you are proud to arm the people who strip away my RKBA.



I still think SIG is the best handgun made. It's my opinion. Great looks and attractive price = winning in my book.



I agree. I would like to see a 226 in SAO thats under $1000 but I'm sure in time we'll get one. Also the DAK isnt for me but I wont piss on thier parade over it.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 4:34:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gudel:

Originally Posted By bigcraig:
Yep, SIG is starting to act like H&K.



I think they're more like S&W, have you seen how many variants they have now? What, new gun of the week sales coming up? It's the same shit, different finish.



Sorry Gudel,
Actually S&W has consolidated quite a bit and has probably less than half of the variants than 10 years ago. No more frame mounted decockers, no more blued main line 3rd gens, no more 69xx series.....

chissel
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 6:50:17 AM EDT
They do use MIM parts. Check www.actionsbyt.com for more info
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 6:07:10 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 8:32:51 AM EDT
It's like opening junk mail. Why expend a second on something you are not interested in? SIG works well for me with every single trigger pull.

226-9-B
226-9-NAVY
226-40-B1
E26R-40-BSS-G
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 9:54:24 AM EDT
The info about MIM pats is located in the "comments" section:

JJ. I do not recommend that you change the firing pin spring in the standard Sig design because these are timed springs and if you insist on installing a stronger firing pin spring you will have problems with reliability. Listen to the German Sig engineers.

KK. I personally think the older Sig 220 is a better design than the current model that is in production.

LL. The Sig line of pistols that are in current production are now using MIM (metal injection molded) parts.



Call Sig and guive them the first few digits of your guns s/n. Ask them if it contains any MIM parts. Also do a side by side comparison of the older P220 or P226 hammers next to s new guns hammer. You can easily spot the MIM part.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 10:01:37 AM EDT
More info here at another gunsmith's site who specializes in custom Sigs:

http://www.tjscustomgunworks.com/TJ_faq.htm#Q6

I copied this from the FAQ section :


Q: What do you think about the new Sig's ?

A: As with nearly all things made today, the quality SEVERELY falls behind the quality of the same items made years earlier. A gun made 5 years ago is MUCH better than one made today, and one made 10 years ago is MUCH better than that one ! The current cast hammers fall FAR behind the quality / workmanship / workability of the older machined hammers.
Now for specifics . . . the 245 = very good gun & design, the 232 = virtually the SAME as the 230, personally I prefer the 230, the SigPro = JUNK (some brain storm engineer thought it was smarter to complicate the mechanism like the HK USP rather than stay with the excellent design of the other Sig line.) Beretta = Don't sell them short ! They are the ONLY company that I can think of at this time that has NOT compromised the quality of their guns and design !
My sincere hat's off to Beretta !!! I can't believe that S&W has the audacity to make & install a PLASTIC disconnector in some of their semi auto pistols ! That is only the 3rd most important part in the trigger mechanism ! If you buy a S&W that is 5 years old+ you should be ok .
I will however, congratulate them on their excellent customer service though.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 11:21:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SIGNAL4L:
More info here at another gunsmith's site who specializes in custom Sigs:

http://www.tjscustomgunworks.com/TJ_faq.htm#Q6

I copied this from the FAQ section :


Q: What do you think about the new Sig's ?

A: As with nearly all things made today, the quality SEVERELY falls behind the quality of the same items made years earlier. A gun made 5 years ago is MUCH better than one made today, and one made 10 years ago is MUCH better than that one ! The current cast hammers fall FAR behind the quality / workmanship / workability of the older machined hammers.
Now for specifics . . . the 245 = very good gun & design, the 232 = virtually the SAME as the 230, personally I prefer the 230, the SigPro = JUNK (some brain storm engineer thought it was smarter to complicate the mechanism like the HK USP rather than stay with the excellent design of the other Sig line.) Beretta = Don't sell them short ! They are the ONLY company that I can think of at this time that has NOT compromised the quality of their guns and design !
My sincere hat's off to Beretta !!! I can't believe that S&W has the audacity to make & install a PLASTIC disconnector in some of their semi auto pistols ! That is only the 3rd most important part in the trigger mechanism ! If you buy a S&W that is 5 years old+ you should be ok .
I will however, congratulate them on their excellent customer service though.



WOW!!!!
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 11:30:38 AM EDT
What utter shit. The Sigpro is junk? My opinion of TJ is that he is a self righeous blowhard who will do whatever he can to sound like he knows everything, to justify the high cost of his gunsmithing. If you call him with questions, he charges you money to talk to him.

The GSR supposedly never had any MIM parts, that was one of the big selling points. I don't know nor do I care about the classic series, because they always work. Granted, one of mine is a 1991 and the other is a 1997, so who knows...
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 11:33:27 AM EDT
I think I'd be listening to a dealer such as teknic or go to sig directly about MIM than a guy that charges you $10 to talk to him on the phone. Take it for what it's worth.

I'm not a great fan of the DAK either, I like HKs LEM over the DAK, but then again, I have only shot a couple of mags of each, so YMMV.

I'm perfectly happy with both of my Sigs (a 239 9mm and a 229 .40), I will definitely continue to purchase their product.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 11:39:24 AM EDT
Recently a friend of mine brough over his new SIG P220ST. He had shot mine several times and loved the way the pistol functioned/accuracy and how comfortable it was.

When we broke down his pistol I was amazed after looking closely at all the obvious tooling marks that should have been removed during final production on the slide. Really bad ones.


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