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Posted: 2/26/2006 3:54:50 PM EDT
The Beretta board of late has been full of stories about how well or poorly the M9 has been fairing in the sandbox. My take is the cheapo Checkmate mags are the culprit but that's another arguement for another day.

Have there been any reports on how well the SIG M11 has been holding up? Granted its scale of issue is much less than the Beretta but I'm just curious if anyone has heard anything reliable. Something a bit more reliable than "My ex brother in law's third cousin is a SEAL/Ranger/Force Recon/etal super trooper and he says they are crap/great/ so so."

Not trying to start a which is best arguement. FWIW I own both. Like both. Will keep both in the collection, which is saying something for me.

Link Posted: 2/26/2006 4:03:03 PM EDT
The only people I knew that had them were on the battalion staff (naturally) and not on the line where they belonged. Hell, the BC carried a M9 in a drop holster AND a M11 on his IBA. I never heard anyone complain. But what is there to complain about at staff, besides having to do another power point?
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 6:13:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Stryker_11A:
The only people I knew that had them were on the battalion staff (naturally) and not on the line where they belonged. Hell, the BC carried a M9 in a drop holster AND a M11 on his IBA. I never heard anyone complain. But what is there to complain about at staff, besides having to do another power point?



Staff getting all the good stuff?!?!?! Shocking. Just shocking...............
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 7:05:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/26/2006 7:08:25 PM EDT by GuitarGuy]
Not to sound too far off base here, i cant speak for the M11, however my best friend was deployed to baghdad with charlie platoon of seal team 1. He and his guys would regularly laugh at their other Navy, and Marine Corps bretheren toting the M9. He noted how they would tend to carry the magazines in plastic bags if they could find em, and the weapons would consistantly jam with the dust and what not. He said his 226 never choked once. He had to use it quite a bit as well, walking personal protection for VIP's and training the ING. He noted that there were locations they chose to move the VIP's where he couldnt even carry his M4, which by the way he couldnt stand, so he would only carry the SIG. He was the comm guy so he had alot of radio gear to lug around too which i suspect is why he chose at times to ditch the M4. I know its second hand comming from me, but hand to god i swear this is straight from somone who was there.
Link Posted: 2/28/2006 6:52:35 PM EDT
There are several actual, verified, members of the military on SIG Forum that are issued M11s and have used tem in combat in Afghanistan and Iraq. I know the site catches hell on this board, too much IMHO, but I'd ask there. A couple have had M11s issued to them since they first came out, and they just got replacements in the last 4 months.

All of them are very happy with them. There are some estimates of how many rounds have been fired, and all you can say is "damn".

For the record, I put my P228 through a mini torture test at the most recent Hun Farm event , in November. I let the gun and mags(17rd Mec Gars) sit in the bed of my truck at nights, where dew would cover them. Then I would take the pistol and mags out and fire them in the morning, all were flawless. When I drove around with my P228 hanging out the window, capping wabbitts, it would get coated in fine red West Texas dust and dirt. The "extended capacity" Mecagars didnt fare so well, but the 15 round mags did, 100%. I did this for three straighty day, feeding it over 1000 rounds. I forgot to clean it for a week, but to my surprise, no rust.
Link Posted: 2/28/2006 7:34:16 PM EDT
ive carried the M11 on a few occasions but it usually ends up in the hands of women and pilots. the pilots think its a status symbol and the women get it from complaining about the size of the M9 grip. i think all this stuff about guys laughing at the M9 etc are bullshit. its a perfectly serviceable weapon. the checkmate mags suck balls but everyone knows it and the bad mags were rotated out very quickly. i used my M9 on more than one occasion and so did a lot of people i know. never heard any complaints from people who know what theyre doing. the army SF in our camp stuck with the M9 and i didnt hear any of them crying about it. i think anyone who carries a weapon outside the wire as part of their regular duties has their own trusted mags they re-use all the time so this isnt really an issue.
Link Posted: 2/28/2006 8:00:12 PM EDT
Im curious as to why the Seal Teams elected to aquire P226's apart from the rest of the navy with the M9. I mean I can understand the technical differences and yes ill say it, superiority in many ways that the SiG has going for it, but I wonder if there werent monitary reasons as well. No other branch of the U.S. Military, including US SOCOM uses this firearm.
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 4:17:48 AM EDT
SEALs are part of USSOCOM, and that's who approves weapons purchases. The SIG is more resistant to being clogged by silt in the water than the open slide Beretta, for one.

I carry an M11-SIG 228, but have carried a Beretta for a long time and wil carry one again at my next assignment. With Beretta factory mags, I have had no issues with the M9.
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 5:54:21 AM EDT
I know Seals are part of SOCOM, im just curious as to why they would selectively purchase 226's for the Teams only, rather than supply them for other Socom units as well, i understand the differences in the slide, and overall advantages in a marine environment that a SiG has, but im just curious why SOCOM didnt strike a bigger deal and perhaps save money in the long run, unless i just answered my own question, and that supplying them only to the Teams was the cheaper option. As i understand it from my friend in Charlie Platoon of Team 1, they have at their discretion the option to carry the SiG, the MK23 HK, or i belive a 357 Smith & Wesson revolver, i could be mistaken on the last one. Do other Socom units have this option? Either way, Paul the OS2 tells me the teams really only ever deploy with the SiGs, due to ammo availability when deployed with other NATO forces, and reliablilty in harsh environments.
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 6:34:37 PM EDT
In the MP Corps, the Detectives (CID) and the PSD guys often carried the M11s while us line doggies carried the M9s, some lucky guys got to carry the M11s, but the stories are few and far between.

I personally own a Sig P226 and wonder why the US Army doesn't carry the 226 instead of the M92; I mean, IMHO, the Sig is far superior to the Beretta by leaps and bounds in terms of accuracy, reliability and ergonomics; Yeah, I know, the power to be opted for the Beretta instead of the Sig (money under the table kinda deal if you ask me); but come on, the SEALs carry the 226 for a reason; they know is the best there is in a full sized 9mm combat pistol.

If i was given a choice between the Sig and the Beretta, I'd carry the Sig in a heartbeat...

But that's just me.
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 1:56:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By GuitarGuy:
I know Seals are part of SOCOM, im just curious as to why they would selectively purchase 226's for the Teams only, rather than supply them for other Socom units as well, i understand the differences in the slide, and overall advantages in a marine environment that a SiG has, but im just curious why SOCOM didnt strike a bigger deal and perhaps save money in the long run, unless i just answered my own question, and that supplying them only to the Teams was the cheaper option. As i understand it from my friend in Charlie Platoon of Team 1, they have at their discretion the option to carry the SiG, the MK23 HK, or i belive a 357 Smith & Wesson revolver, i could be mistaken on the last one. Do other Socom units have this option? Either way, Paul the OS2 tells me the teams really only ever deploy with the SiGs, due to ammo availability when deployed with other NATO forces, and reliablilty in harsh environments.



From what I understand it stems from Beretta trying to lay blame ont he SEALs for the slide failures of the early M9s. Beretta complained that it was the ammo the SEALs were using, it was too hot, it was high-pressure test, it was SMG-only, yada, yada. From what I can find that wasn't the case, and the SEALs were using standard ammo, despite the internet myth. When the Army began to break slides during it's investigation as to why they were breaking, Beretta tried the same BS line with the Army ammo, that the standard NATO ammo we used, and still use, was too high pressure, etc. Needless to say when the Army figured out that it was the metal in the slides that was bad there was finger pointing and hard feelings all around.

To make a long story too short, the Army told everyone to just STFU because of the bad press and political problems the M9 already had and just paid for new slides, replacing all M9 slides at one thousand rounds.

The hard feelings ran deep, and the SEAL teams were pissed off enough to tell Beretta to screw off and that they'd never use any of their stuff again and they purchased P226's. No one raised a stink about it, because it was the easiest solution to what was becoming a political problem as well as a materiel one.
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 2:05:45 AM EDT
+1 Black-Tiger

Nothing against the Berettas though. When I was in, ours sucked, but the pistol can't be faulted. They were probably 15 years old with hundreds of thousands of rounds through them with little maintance. One day I'd like to take a NIB 92 out and see what it's like.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 1:40:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/5/2006 1:42:17 AM EDT by Ross]

Originally Posted By pfccypret:
+1 Black-Tiger

Nothing against the Berettas though. When I was in, ours sucked, but the pistol can't be faulted. They were probably 15 years old with hundreds of thousands of rounds through them with little maintance. One day I'd like to take a NIB 92 out and see what it's like.



When I was in, we replaced our .38 spec revovlers for them and they (and our M16A2s) came to us new in the box. It was quite easy to like that pistol.

ETA: my first Sig was a police trade-in that had no finish and a slide that rattled like a worn out 1911. It was pretty easy to like that pistol too after I shot it
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