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Posted: 12/20/2005 12:41:18 PM EDT
Sig screwed me out of a substantial chunk of change and refuses to admit fault. Why tell this story? Because the same can happen to you.

I bought a P245 awhile back, and it never really worked right. Oh well, that's modern guns, right? One day I noticed that the slide was *seriously* eating the frame. Well, not working right is one thing, but self-destructing is another. I called SIG about it and they told me to send it back. Overnight, of course.

After they received it, they told me that the tolerances were way off, and that it wasn't fixable. So they'd send me a new one. Of course I whined and complained that it better be the exact same thing, because it's my carry gun and if it's different, it's not going to work out, and I was assured that this would be the case.

So I get the gun, and whamo, different serial number. Well, that's strange. Normally when this stuff happens, they stamp the same serial number to prevent problems. I try to call SIG and ask about it, but 'all operators are busy,' and the dealer wants to know where his money is.

So I pay him his transfer fee, and his background check fee (Wait, what? In NV you currently have to pay background check even if you have CCW). Because as far as the government, the store, or anyone else is concerned, different serial = different gun.

Which means... I have to pay a rangemaster to requalify. And I have to pay the county to relist it on my permit.

Holy cow! Overnight shipping + transfer fee + background check fee + requal fee + relisting fee = a lot of money!! Now, I don't live in a fantasy world, and I don't expect SIG to cut me a check for $160. But seeing as how I had to pay an additional $160 for the cost of the P245 due to by their own admission a mismanufacture on their part, some sort of, "Uh, sorry about that" and gesture would be proper, I think.

So I send them a letter describing the whole story, and admit that I'm fully cognizant of the zero percent chance they will actually send me $160. I just ask for a bunch of mags for the principle of it. Truth is, I don't need more P245 mags, I already have a stack. But I figure there's no reason they'd turn me down, seeing as how they probably cost SIG all of 75 cents to manufacture.

Not an unreasonable request, but to further seal the deal, I send them a pic of all my SIGs (over half a dozen) to show that I'm a longtime SIG customer, and I've never asked for anything before. Hidden translation: I have already spent tons of money with you guys and will probably spend tons more, send me my 75 cent mags.

What do they do? Ignore me of course. I call them and ask why they ignored me, and "Ed" tells me that I didn't send any receipts. Of course I didn't send any receipts, if they type my name into the computer, they will see that yes, I did send one back and yes, they did send me a different one, so right off the bat they know I did in fact pay for overnight shipping + transfer fee + background check. And seeing as how I drilled the fact that it was a carry gun and I live in Nevada, it is reasonable to assume that I paid requalification fee and relisting fee.

This isn't good enough for them though, and they say no receipt = screw you. Wow, imagine that. I bought all these guns from this company, they make one wrong, and all of a sudden I'm a filthy stinking liar who is trying to con them out of a bunch of mags no one buys anyway.

P.S. As an analogy I suppose, I called Springfield Armory recently for a gun I bought *4 years ago* and told them it has 'issues,' and they took care of it, no questions asked. Even after I told them I bought it 4 years ago.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 12:45:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2005 12:46:12 PM EDT by Beefypeanut]
My experiences with SIG have been completely opposite. They didn't fix the problem (I ended up having to do it in my garage) but the guy at least tried and he threw in a bunch of different front and rear sights for free.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 1:45:57 PM EDT
I think you should have let SIG know that a gun with a new serial number would cost you money. They didn't seem to know this so I don't see where they own you anything. Had you sent a letter along with the defective P245 then they would have a forwarning and been able to re-stamp the new P245 and this would have been avoided. They did there part and sent you a new gun so I don't see where you got screwed by them.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 1:52:24 PM EDT
So your saying you'll have 6 Sig's 4 sale real cheap

Link Posted: 12/20/2005 3:50:04 PM EDT
Wow!! Damn, man. Sorry to hear about all of that. Sounds like a real goat-f*ck.

From the outside looking in it appears that there are a couple of unfortunate factors that all kind of come together here...

1). the gun trying to eat itself (this is the obvious, but hey manufacturers do make mistakes from time-to-time. Try a $50,000+ brand-new Corvette in which the engine blows up on the way home from the dealership after having just bought it.)

2). overnight shipping (this is some mickey mouse crap that the shippers have devised to try to wring more money out of customers. It is a self-imposed policy, not a government regulation. Their reasoning? "Well...uhhh...we just don't want the g-g-gun in our possession all the time it would take for normal delivery.")

3). Your dealer (Now maybe it's just me but what kind of a**hat dealer would charge his customer (I'm assuming that you patronize this guy regularly) a fee for handing over a replacement gun?!?! Regardless of having to record a new serial number, etc. Sounds as though this dealer may think too highly of himself, but this is just some guy on the internet's opinion. Personally I wouldn't have the gall.)

4). State of Nevada (Hey, what can ya say... It's unfortunate that their CCW licensing is so restrictive as to limit you to one gun, etc. But you're the one that lives there, so you gotta play their game.)


Now, as an example, where I am, had I to send my pistol back to Sig I'm quite certain that I would only be out of the overnight money as I can carry whichever pistol I please, and my dealer is an absolute class act.
As for the being treated like a scam artist by Sig...I don't know what to tell ya. I'd be pretty friggin' livid myself. Maybe I was raised the old-fashioned way with a man's word being final (though I've seen enough within the last few years to make me more than question others standards and beliefs). Maybe you ought to just fax them the copies of this crap and put the ball back in their lap. Hope it works out for ya.
Bottom line, IMNSHO, you're still carrying one of the finest firearms to be had. Of all the various pistols I've owned Sig is still one of a very few that I would trust with my life and the lives of my loved ones.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 1:28:28 AM EDT
If you get your gun replaced, I was under the impression that you can't have the same serial number back, even if the old one is destroyed? I think this is the same thing Glock did, the number is the same but they had to add "-1" to it, so it's a different serial number.
I always wonder about this, whether or not manufacturer can reuse the same serial for replacement.

Looks like there's gonna be a Sig sale
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 3:27:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gudel:
If you get your gun replaced, I was under the impression that you can't have the same serial number back, even if the old one is destroyed? I think this is the same thing Glock did, the number is the same but they had to add "-1" to it, so it's a different serial number.
I always wonder about this, whether or not manufacturer can reuse the same serial for replacement.

Looks like there's gonna be a Sig sale



Incorrect - Firearm MFGs are authorized to restamp serial #s and even "remanufacture"
a firearm , as long as the gun is not retransferred to another owner , and all other regulations
are obeyed.

notsubby - I think both you and Sig flunked the "communication" test

Im surprised you apparently don't have any receipts for such important stuff tho.

Oh well , live and learn
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 7:17:32 AM EDT
Sounds like a total lack of communication. When you told Sig the gun had to be the same I'm sure they took that as same model. Did you explain to them about have to have the same serial number or just said the gun had to be the same which I would take as same model.

Also why are you going through a dealer to return a pistol to the manufacturer? You don't lergally have to do that. You can send the gun to the manufacturer or a gunsmith for work or warrenty repair and have it sent right back to your house. No dealer involved as long as it's the same gun. That's where the same serial number would have come into play also.

As to the receipts, go back to the dealer and get one and get one from the person who had to requal you. You should have the copy of the overnight slip you got also and if not you should be able to get one through the shipper. Yes it might take a little running around but you should be able to get the $160 back.

It sucks you had to go through all that but next time be very specific about what you need especially with silly rules like Nevada has in having to list the serial numbers. I thought I had it bad being in a blue state but atleast up here we don't have to register what gun you'll be carrying.

Good luck with getting everything taken care of as it was a headache on your part I'm sure. I think you should be able to get your money from Sig.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 7:22:52 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 11:47:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Rob01:
Sounds like a total lack of communication. When you told Sig the gun had to be the same I'm sure they took that as same model. Did you explain to them about have to have the same serial number or just said the gun had to be the same which I would take as same model.

Also why are you going through a dealer to return a pistol to the manufacturer? You don't lergally have to do that. You can send the gun to the manufacturer or a gunsmith for work or warrenty repair and have it sent right back to your house. No dealer involved as long as it's the same gun. That's where the same serial number would have come into play also.

As to the receipts, go back to the dealer and get one and get one from the person who had to requal you. You should have the copy of the overnight slip you got also and if not you should be able to get one through the shipper. Yes it might take a little running around but you should be able to get the $160 back.

It sucks you had to go through all that but next time be very specific about what you need especially with silly rules like Nevada has in having to list the serial numbers. I thought I had it bad being in a blue state but atleast up here we don't have to register what gun you'll be carrying.

Good luck with getting everything taken care of as it was a headache on your part I'm sure. I think you should be able to get your money from Sig.



+1
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 10:56:58 AM EDT
Sig' customer service has been lacking for a very long time, in my opinion. Just ask the Henrico County PD in Virginia.
They got screwed one too many times, and just transitioned to Glocks after being treated like shit by Sig.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 12:38:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/24/2005 12:40:05 AM EDT by gudel]
post this stuff in sigforum. you will automatically become the bad guy.

I had to use BBB to get my shipping fee refunded for a brand new untouched sig that did not work out of the box.

I specifically asked Melissa to get it refunded, even wrote it down with fedex receipt. got my gun back, minus the check.

Why should I pay for their screw up? I sure as hell won't pay someone else's child support.
They're supposed to check it before it even went out of factory.

I will not buy another sig.

good luck to you man.
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 12:31:58 AM EDT
The folks in SIG’s service department probably don’t have a clue how things are done in Nevada, or how much they cost.

Why don’t you send them the receipts?
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 12:38:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/25/2005 12:44:00 AM EDT by ElCamino]

Originally Posted By 1GUNRUNNER:
I would re-title this "How I screwed me, and how it can possibly be avoided"



+1

I wouldn't blame Sig for not explicitly instructing them that you need the same serial number. They really can't be held accountable for obnoxious CCW laws.

It also doesn't surprise me that they didn't just send you mags. If I ran a company, and you wrote a letter to me explaining this situation and then asking for free shit, I'd be less likely to give you free shit than if you had just written the letter explaining your dissatisfaction.

ETA: If you think this is "screwed" then I don't see how you get through life without blowing a fuse. This is a hassle and it costs money, but it's not the end of the world. Probably not something I would write a letter demanding free merchandise over.
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 6:52:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gudel:
post this stuff in sigforum. you will automatically become the bad guy.

I had to use BBB to get my shipping fee refunded for a brand new untouched sig that did not work out of the box.

I specifically asked Melissa to get it refunded, even wrote it down with fedex receipt. got my gun back, minus the check.

Why should I pay for their screw up? I sure as hell won't pay someone else's child support.
They're supposed to check it before it even went out of factory.

I will not buy another sig.

good luck to you man.




Child support? Since when are you entitled to a refund for shipping costs? Look, this is actually a rather simple concept. Once you make a purchase it then becomes your property; this isn't some sort of lend/lease program we're talking about here. WTF...
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 10:32:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/25/2005 10:34:12 AM EDT by Kaliburz]
Interesting.....


I know that Olympic Arms when sent a "pre ban" lower that could not be repaired would stamp the old SN on a lower......

I know that Cav Arms 'recycled' lowers.....

Pistols..... I'm not sure of. I guess each company is different. But I figured that since it was an gun replacing a gun, it should be fine...but that's just my opinon.


edit-
Most of the time, any shipping back to the manufactuer for warranty work is up to customer.....
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 8:14:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 2Manchu:

Originally Posted By gudel:
post this stuff in sigforum. you will automatically become the bad guy.

I had to use BBB to get my shipping fee refunded for a brand new untouched sig that did not work out of the box.

I specifically asked Melissa to get it refunded, even wrote it down with fedex receipt. got my gun back, minus the check.

Why should I pay for their screw up? I sure as hell won't pay someone else's child support.
They're supposed to check it before it even went out of factory.

I will not buy another sig.

good luck to you man.




Child support? Since when are you entitled to a refund for shipping costs? Look, this is actually a rather simple concept. Once you make a purchase it then becomes your property; this isn't some sort of lend/lease program we're talking about here. WTF...



Wow,

Some companies, Smith and Wesson comes to mind first, will pay the shipping both ways if they screwed up something with YOUR gun. After you "pays your money", you don't really "takes your chances", at least with SOME companies.

I really like SIG's and seriously contemplated buying a 225 for a CCW peice. After learning a few things, I am glad I didn't. I thought this kind of customer service, or lack of was reserved for HK? I aplaud anyone standing against crappy customer service. The defense of this practice by zealots is distressing.

chissel

Link Posted: 12/29/2005 9:44:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 2Manchu:
Look, this is actually a rather simple concept. Once you make a purchase it then becomes your property; this isn't some sort of lend/lease program we're talking about here. WTF...



I really hope Sig doesn't think this way, or any reputable manufacturer for that matter. Thought's like this would surely drive a companies quality into the ground.

You are right about it not being a lend/lease program. The thing is when you buy a Sig your buying a reputation too, a good reputation.

Link Posted: 12/29/2005 9:52:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2005 9:52:54 AM EDT by M4arc]
I'm still stumped over the fact that you have to register and qualify with your CCW
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 9:59:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1GUNRUNNER:
I would re-title this "How I screwed me, and how it can possibly be avoided"



+1
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 11:09:23 AM EDT
Ya know what? I've had nothing but great customer service from SIG.

I needed to get my P226 refurbished a while back, so I called and spoke with two very helpful SIG Arms Customer Service Reps. They fully explained the service and the what the procedures would be. They even entertained my giddy, school-girlish questions about the possibiltiy of a US made 55X.

I sent my pistol in for said serice, but was deployed with my current employer before it returned. Once in country, I was able to get on a SAT phone and call SIG Arms and explain the situation to them. The Rep said no problemo, they would make sure it got to my home of record. When it was delivered, UPS screwed the pooch and sent it back to SIG. I called again, and was told by the Customer Service Rep that he would find out where the pistol was, update me by email, and ensure it got back to my HOR. Two days later, it was delivered without a hitch.

Communication skills on our the customer's part are essential. If one doesn't take the time to fully and clearly explain the situation and what you expect, what can you honestly expect.
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