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Posted: 6/21/2003 4:30:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/21/2003 7:03:00 AM EDT by Smalls]
I have a Glock 19 and am taking my CCW class in a few days. But I'm not sure what type of ammo I would like to carry for self-defense. The new Aguila IQ 65gr. and HydroShok have been recommended to me. What do you think? Right now all I have is the white box from Wally World.

[Edited to add]

Also what kind of holsters to you recommend? I bought an Uncle Mike's IWB size 15 for carrying at the 12 o'clock position and an Uncle Mike's paddle for the 5 o'clock position. Also I ordered one of those lightweight shoulder holsters with the Fobus Roto holster.

I have been doing some research on the net. But I trust ar15.com members opinions better than random internet searches.

P.S. Is it wise to carry condition 1 in the IWB? I would like to have children some day. :)

Smalls
Semper Fi
Link Posted: 6/21/2003 5:11:25 AM EDT
Winchester Ranger RA9T has always been the top performing 9mm round. This is LEO restricted ammo and is hard to find. I've settled for RA9SXT as a result.
Link Posted: 6/21/2003 5:16:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/21/2003 5:17:22 AM EDT by M4_Aiming_at_U]
I have the Winchester 180gr. JHP SXT's in my G23

I had carried the elderado JHP's in my G19 when I had it.
Link Posted: 6/21/2003 5:52:49 AM EDT
CorBon.
Link Posted: 6/21/2003 6:11:57 AM EDT
I've got some .45 Aguila IQ's that i'll try later 117gr supposing to move at 1400fps...we'll see.
Link Posted: 6/21/2003 6:22:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By innocent_bystander:
Winchester Ranger RA9T has always been the top performing 9mm round. This is LEO restricted ammo and is hard to find. I've settled for RA9SXT as a result.



I'm curious why you didn't choose the RA9SXTP. Is it because it is 127 gr. instead of 147 gr.? Now I know the +P+ stuff is a hotter load but how much of a difference does it make?

Smalls
Semper Fi
Link Posted: 6/21/2003 6:32:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By innocent_bystander:
Winchester Ranger RA9T has always been the top performing 9mm round. This is LEO restricted ammo and is hard to find. I've settled for RA9SXT as a result.


Restricted, by Winchester. But (from what I understand) it is perfectly legal to own if you're one of us unwashed masses (just damn near impossible to find). Am I mistaken in this belief?
Link Posted: 6/21/2003 9:51:47 AM EDT
It is legal to own but impossible to find. If you find a source let me know. I think the 127 grain stuff would work well too.
Link Posted: 6/22/2003 4:10:04 AM EDT
Gold Dot +P
Link Posted: 6/22/2003 12:34:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/22/2003 12:41:52 PM EDT by YANKEEFAN]
RA40SXT 165gr in my 27.

Holster: Galco SOB and Safariland DEA style Open Top Paddle Holster
Link Posted: 6/22/2003 1:11:27 PM EDT
I carry a Glock 17 with Ranger 127 +p+ in a Sidearmor IWB holster.
Aaron.
Link Posted: 6/22/2003 6:28:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Aaron_S:
I carry a Glock 17 with Ranger 127 +p+ in a Sidearmor IWB holster.
Aaron.



I looked up that Sidearmor holster. Looks pretty nice. Especially with the shirt tucker attachment. It looks as if I will be buying a lot of different holsters!
I'm going to have to look into the ammo choice some more. It seems everyone has their favorite.

Smalls
Semper Fi
Link Posted: 6/22/2003 7:10:54 PM EDT
The Blade-Tech injection molded holsters are nice and inexpensive. I have problems with the extra material at the bottom of the trigger guard on the Sidearmor Glock holsters. Screws up my index point on the draw.
Link Posted: 6/23/2003 7:39:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/23/2003 7:40:07 AM EDT by USP40C]
You have already mentioned the Fobus holsters, and having carried both a G17 and a USP Compact in them, they get a great big thumbs up from me.

I prefer the paddle for the easy on/off, and have never had any problems with shifting or lifting during a draw. Retention is good, though grab resistance is admitedly low, and the draw is smooth and simple.

As for ammo, shoot a bunch of different stuff, and then see what you and your gun agree on. hollow-point performance from the major manufacturers will be at least comperable in most cases, so find what you like.

Added: on the belt, avoid the Roto line, as they tend to ride a little farther off the hip, and therefore print a little more.
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 8:04:58 AM EDT
Glock 17, 19, and 26. Corbon, Corbon, and Corbon. ISP load. 115 grain boolet going really really fast. Big boom too!!!!!!!
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 9:40:44 PM EDT
I feel strongly that CORBON IS THE POOOOOP!!!!!
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 11:09:48 PM EDT
CORBON!!!!!!!!!
Link Posted: 6/27/2003 5:19:28 AM EDT
I carry both of the rounds mentioned (federal hydra-shock and aguila IQ) One federal in the chamber 15 IQ's behind it and 2 more Federal's to follow it up.... IQ's are FAN-FRIGGIN-TASTIC!!! but the Hydra will ruin somebodys day if they aren't wearing a vest... If they are wearing a vest or if they are in a car is exactly the reason i carry IQ's.
As far as holsters... the fobus is good... but if you want something that don't look like your grandfathers suspenders you may want to get the Miami classic from galco... wear the fobus on your hip... not your armpit... here's something else I learned... get the fobus single mag case and wear it upside down... they stay in the case and are really easy to draw... SEMPER FI!!
Link Posted: 6/27/2003 5:03:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/27/2003 5:09:03 PM EDT by j_ratliffe]
i carry my own reloads, 230gr. fmj ball in my g30, and use a sidearmor IWB holster. they are so comfortable, sometimes i forget i'm wearing it. i mostly wear jeans and a slightly loose fitting tee shirt, and you can't even see the weapon. it's a nice little holster. as far as carrying condition 1, as long as you keep your finger off the trigger when drawing out the gun, it'll never accidently discharge. carry it loaded and don't worry about it(just keep your finger off of the trigger).
Link Posted: 6/28/2003 2:51:15 PM EDT
155g Gold Dot hollowpoints in 40 S&W
Link Posted: 6/28/2003 2:58:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/28/2003 2:59:30 PM EDT by Lumpy196]
Standard Remington 155gr JHP in my 22. Only because BP guys give it to me in large quantities
Link Posted: 6/28/2003 6:49:50 PM EDT
Remington 230gr JHP Golden Saber
Link Posted: 6/29/2003 10:08:36 AM EDT
I picked up some Winchester SXT 147 gr. Im going to try them out. I'm also thinking of the Aguila IQ.
I took the NRA Self Defense class yesterday to qualify for the Michigan CCW. The class was fun! I think next week sometime I will send in the application.

Thanks for all the replies!

Smalls
Semper Fi
Link Posted: 7/7/2003 8:42:09 PM EDT
Gold Dot in my 31 and 33
Corbon in my 17
Link Posted: 7/8/2003 4:28:14 PM EDT
165gr Gold Dots in my G22, G27.
Link Posted: 7/9/2003 5:35:31 AM EDT
i just went shooting this last weekend to do some ballistics testing of the .40 s&w Aguila IQ and the 165 gr. federal Hydra-shock.. at 20 ft. the federal hydra shock blew a two fist sized hole in the front of the watermelon and knoked it off the pole.... the Aguila blew the entire front of the watermelon off and sent a large chunk flying to about 20 feet away... and obviously blew it waaaay off the pole... any doubts i had about carrying a lightweight bullet were removed in about a tenth of a second... Good Job Aguila!!!
Link Posted: 7/9/2003 3:06:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TwinGlockForDeez:
i just went shooting this last weekend to do some ballistics testing of the .40 s&w Aguila IQ and the 165 gr. federal Hydra-shock.. at 20 ft. the federal hydra shock blew a two fist sized hole in the front of the watermelon and knoked it off the pole.... the Aguila blew the entire front of the watermelon off and sent a large chunk flying to about 20 feet away... and obviously blew it waaaay off the pole... any doubts i had about carrying a lightweight bullet were removed in about a tenth of a second... Good Job Aguila!!!



I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but using watermelons to test what ammo to protect yourself with is bordering on foolish. Fruit is a poor medium for ammo testing to say the least. You should definitely do a little more research into this kind thing.

The lighter bullets will provide higher velocities but may not give proper penetration. This may not be a factor in some cases, but may come into effect with cross torso shots. Unless you think every potential threat will stand straight onto you.

The higher weights will give more penetration but may lack the velocity needed for every situation. Plus felt recoil will increase with the heavier loads.

The medium weight bullets definitely gives a little of both, and will probably perform the best over a wider range of situations.
Link Posted: 7/9/2003 3:27:23 PM EDT
In my Hi Power I carry Corbon 115gr +p, Beretta 92's stoked with Hydoshock 124gr +P+, Glock 22 and Kahr P40 have 135gr Hydroshocks. All the .45's have Corbon 230gr +P's

For leather check out Andrew Leather
Link Posted: 7/10/2003 1:25:53 AM EDT
i like to think of watermelons as my own form of ballistic gel... we tried firing at water jugs too for penetration tests and that seemed to give some good results.... what would be a good thing to test with???
Link Posted: 7/10/2003 6:47:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TwinGlockForDeez:
i like to think of watermelons as my own form of ballistic gel... we tried firing at water jugs too for penetration tests and that seemed to give some good results.... what would be a good thing to test with???



While I think shooting watermelons is a lot of fun, it doesn't simulate tissue properly for accurate testing. From everything I have read, ballistic gelatin is still the best substitute for tissue. It may not be perfect, but it performs pretty close to the real thing.

If you don't have access to ballistic gelatin, then the next best thing is to research testing that has been done by people who do. Of course this isn't as fun as doing it yourself, but it is still a valuable resource. After reading the available info, you then need to decide what you will expect from your ammo. Then pick whatever weight ammo you think will fit that need.

I went with the middle weight loads because they would work well in soft tissue, but would still get a little more penetration. Since I keep a gun at home and carry for self-defense I wanted something that would have the greatest odds of working in the multitude of situations that may arise.
Link Posted: 7/11/2003 7:00:13 AM EDT
I use Speer Gold Dot's or Federal Hydro shocks.
Link Posted: 7/11/2003 4:44:24 PM EDT
In my Glock 21, I load it with 230gr. Gold Dots. Glock 22C: 165gr. Golden Sabres. Glock 32: 125 gr. Gold Dots.
Link Posted: 7/11/2003 9:53:46 PM EDT
For those who carry Cor-Bon, Hydra-Shok, Aguila ammo, I wonder, why?
Why have you chosen this round?

Please let me know if you get a chance.

Thanks,
IMHO
Link Posted: 7/12/2003 4:12:23 AM EDT
I still have a box of .45cal Black Talons that I load in my Glock 30. Other than that I like Hyda-shock.
Link Posted: 7/12/2003 4:26:05 PM EDT
A piece of advice I received: check to see what the local police carry. Go with something comparable, or the same as they carry. Why? It is hard for a lawyer to be aggressive with you, should you have to use that carry gun; if you carry hollow points and the locals don't, use the gun and you will have that defense lawyer climbing all over you trying to portray you as an aggressive, gun nut, looking for trouble.
Link Posted: 7/13/2003 11:26:37 AM EDT
exactly why i carry a G23 with hydra-shock's... from what i understand it's the FBI's standard gun/load... but i hear some AZ police are starting to carry Aguila's in their Glocks
Link Posted: 7/13/2003 11:33:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MaineAR:
Gold Dot +P

Same here.
Link Posted: 7/17/2003 9:59:59 PM EDT
I recently attended a ballistic class where I shot different types and brands of ammo into ballistic gelatin. The Gold Dot line was the hands down winner in all respects. The 9mm load tested penetrated 14 to 18 inches and expanded to .60 almost every time. It also retained 100% of its starting weight, which almost no other round did. This is because the lead bullet is bonded to the jacket. The only other round that I know of that does this is the Ranger line. We tested it also and it performed well, but not as well as the Gold Dot. I personally carried the Corbon 115 grain before that school and I had the chance to compare it in the gelatin. While the Corbon did the most damage, it only penetrated approx. 4 inches. Whatever you do, don't rely on tests done in fruit or vegetables to make an educated decision on what round to carry. My entire Police Department now carry the Gold Dot line exclusively. I like how you ask a question about a 9mm and get recommendations for every other round. Happens every time.

CR

____________________________________

Link Posted: 7/19/2003 4:27:51 AM EDT
It seems quite a few other ccw holders in my area are switching to the Aguila IQ. For now I'm going to use the IQ and the Winchester SXT.

Smalls
Cpl of Marines
Link Posted: 7/20/2003 9:16:03 AM EDT
Ranger SXT for both .45 & 9mm.
230 gr. +P and 127 gr. +P+ {Taylor recomends 127 over 147 gr.}

Since holsters have ben mentiond: Either Alessi
Talon+ or W6DT. In Kydex Cen-Dex has proven superior to the 5 or so other popular mfg's.
Taylor has desingn input into Cen-Dex and recomends/uses them to his Students. personal favorite is their Taylor Nighthawk. It's a markedly better holster than most that cost $15 more:

http://cen-dex.com/TAYLOR%20NOGHTHAWK.htm



Link Posted: 7/20/2003 11:01:58 AM EDT
Original Black Talon if you can find and afford it. I have some for every cal handgun I own.
Link Posted: 7/20/2003 1:56:43 PM EDT
Well...
I keep Corbon in my Glocks.
Yeah it is kinda pricy, but I have NEVER had a jam, misfire or any other FTF using Corbon's.

I carry 3 different weapons. Not all at the same time of course.
(1) Glock Model 30, 45acp, Galco Paddle, Corbon's
(2) Glock model 21, 45acp, Fobus Paddle, Corbon's
(3) Smith And Wesson Model 638(bodyguard j frame), 38sp, inside the pants, Winchester Silvertips.

The type of holster would depend on you and how you carry.
If this is a duty weapon(basically you are a LEO) then I would go with a nice leather holster, like a Galco Fletch. It will set you back about $60.

If you only occasionally carry, then go with a paddle holster. It can be slipped on in 10 seconds, and is pretty easy to conceal.

Fobus holster are nice, but I would rather stick with some nice leather. I only have the Fobus holster because it came with the model 21 when I bought it. I intend to replace it later this week with a Galco leather paddle and a Glaco Fletch holster.

Link Posted: 7/22/2003 3:18:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By stodd4:
I recently attended a ballistic class . . . Happens every time.

CR

____________________________________




In light of this, I'll repeat a question that may have been missed:

For those who carry Cor-Bon, Hydra-Shok, Aguila ammo, I wonder, why?
Why have you chosen this round?

Please let me know if you get a chance.

Thanks,
IMHO
Link Posted: 7/22/2003 4:59:38 PM EDT
www.firearmstactical.com/tactical.htm
I have learned alot about terminal ballistics in general and performance of specific brands/loads by reading from this site.

www.gokart.net/shop-utopia/kramer/hholsters/iwb3/
This holster is usually recomended for IWB carry. Which one will work best for you will depend on your build and wardrobe.
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 7:18:02 PM EDT
I carry Corbob 150g ammo.

Use to carry Hi Veil 150g.
Link Posted: 7/28/2003 8:45:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/28/2003 8:45:59 PM EDT by dissipator556]
Here's why I wouldn't trust my life to that round:
Aguila IQ is a lightweight, aluminum bullet with a deep hollowpoint cavity that is heavily scored so it will break apart. Base, and three petals, if I remember correctly.

Do a yahoo/google search, and see if you can find the gel tests that show penetration levels for the IQ. Penetration with this round is so far below standard that it is disgusting.

Also, the individual pieces of the bullet were found to be too small to create serious permanent wound cavities, thus not crushing or severing as much nerve and connective tissue.

In short, don't expect a pistol bullet to wound like a rifle bullet- you'll be disappointed every time.

Stick with a quality hollow point, like the Speer Gold Dot. A plus with the Gold Dot is the Lawman (fmj) version to practice with- its loaded to the exact same specs and point of impact, so you can practice with what you carry.

For your own safety, research the Aguila IQ a little further, and understand for yourself why this is a loser round.

Link Posted: 7/28/2003 8:48:51 PM EDT
To dispel the ridiculous myth that the IQ round penetrates soft body armor
23 Feb 03

From an LEO friend in WI:

"We recently acquired some Mexican Aguila "IQ" 9mm rounds. They are a 65 gr HP. We heard that they would penetrate soft body armor, so we tested them. We shot them into fifteen-year-old, retired Second Chance vests. We used a Taurus pistol with a five-inch barrel. Range was three meters.

No penetration. Not even close. Only the first two layers were penetrated, and deformation was minimal. This old vest also stopped a dozen other brands of 9mm rounds we shot at it, including all American manufacturers."

Lesson: Don't get excited about any of the "magic bullet" rumors that periodically circulate. No one has repealed any laws of physics recently.

/John
/
Link Posted: 7/28/2003 8:52:32 PM EDT
Another good one, probably where you first heard that they defeated soft armor, with a correction added...
communities.prodigy.net/sportsrec/gz-aguila-iq.html
Link Posted: 7/28/2003 9:27:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/28/2003 9:28:43 PM EDT by dissipator556]
From Troy's lips, to my ears, regarding the gimicky mexican round:

ANY .45 bullet you get shot with is gonna put a hurtin' on you, but some will STOP your attacker much more reliably than others. This particular load is NOT near the top of that list, that's all.

-Troy


________________________________________

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It will defeat very low-rated vests (Level II), but then, so will hot 9mm FMJ. Big deal.

Also, it is NOT illegal. Whoever made that determination has a severe case of cranial-rectal inversion. Federal guidelines are very specific about what makes up an "armor piercing" bullet, and the Aguila IQ ammo does not qualify.

And, as pointed out, it isn't an adequate self defense load.

-Troy
Link Posted: 8/2/2003 4:31:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/2/2003 4:39:09 AM EDT by FED-up]
O.K. And yes to all you guys. But I think this is a 9mm question. In 9mm I agree Gold Dot, Hydro Shock and especially Corbon. Personaly, I will always believe that lighter higher velocity bullets are preferable. From what I've seen, they consistently produce more substantative soft tissue damage than heavier bullets.

Picking good ammmo is nothing but intelligent. But relying on one shot kills ("stops" to be politically correct) is not a good idea. If it's life or death the most important element is hitting the bad guy, and keep shooting until "parts start coming off" or the magazine runs dry. Or the encounter is OBVIOUSLY over.

Also remember. You will (in a fight) always be adrenelyned to the max and miscount the number of shots you took. As a matter of PRACTICE (this is how we trained), no matter whether you fired one shot, or 15 shots, (or so you think), anytime you pause from shooting, instinctively dump the magazine from the weapon and combat reload a fresh (full) one.

P.S. If you can help it, never take a pistol to a gun fight. Shotguns and high power rifle (to include even "assault rifles" - which they are not, of course, unless they are Class III) are a FAR better choice. Out Team NEVER had a bad guy recover from a .223 wound (cut down signifigantly on "repeat offenders").
Link Posted: 8/3/2003 9:54:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By skullworks:

Originally Posted By MaineAR:
Gold Dot +P

Same here.



ditto
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