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Posted: 3/19/2006 11:15:40 AM EDT
We are having a discussion about HD in another forum. It was said that 33 rd Glock factory mags are more likely to jam than 17 rd mags. Are there any studies on this? Anyone with a great deal of personal experience with both?

Thank you
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 1:15:17 PM EDT
I haven't experienced any reliability issues with my GLOCK 31/33 round magazines but I'm not sure I'd trust the Schrader 9mm (spelling) mags because of all the problems in the past. However, I've heard good things about their .40 & 45 ACP mags.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 1:23:56 PM EDT
Let's look at reality for one. A few things, you've really pissed off the wrong people and lead one dangerous life, you are overly nervous, you are a really poor shot and the Zombies decided to have a family reunion!

All kidding aside, test fire it a few times to make sure it works, if using a light, attach that as well.

It may be expensive, but use the ammo you will be carrying to test fire.

Mark
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 1:45:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/19/2006 1:46:41 PM EDT by Redbone]
Aside from using the 33rd in a Mech-tech conversion upper, they have no practical use. In a HD situation, they sure as hell would be a liability just by the length of them.

I'm sure they're kool for range use but I wouldn't want to risk my life by having a broomstick sticking out of the bottom of my handgun in a gunfight.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 2:00:19 PM EDT
I do not understand the concern of having the magazine "sticking out". The same concern would then apply to the magazine on an AR15 or any other gun where the magazine is not within the gun.

My primary concern is if it has a tested (or well known) higher frequency of jamming.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 2:07:52 PM EDT
The GLOCK OEM 31rd mag with the +2 extension is just as reliable as the standard 17rd mags. If you are really contemplating on using this for home defense I HIGHLY suggest you talk to an attorney FIRST.

My cousin is an attorney and a public defender at that. He would LOVE to nail someone for using a 33rd. magazine in a handgun. Overkill was not the word he used to describe using it....I think he said something like "only a crazed lunatic looking for a fight would use a magazine like that".

Best bet would be to keep one mag in the gun and another close at hand. I would highly suggest using the +2 glock baseplates on your glock. The total package would give you 38 rounds at your finger tips.

I have 2 of the 33rd. mags but only bring them out when I am in the desert and want to impress my buddies.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 2:15:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Neo1:
I do not understand the concern of having the magazine "sticking out". The same concern would then apply to the magazine on an AR15 or any other gun where the magazine is not within the gun.

My primary concern is if it has a tested (or well known) higher frequency of jamming.



Basic bottom line, if you want to use one, test it, test it well in your blaster!

And if used, you are either right or wrong.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 2:25:59 PM EDT
If you use a G18 33rd mag designed for the Glock machine pistol in a self defense shooting, may God help you.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 2:29:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Msokol13:
The GLOCK OEM 31rd mag with the +2 extension is just as reliable as the standard 17rd mags. If you are really contemplating on using this for home defense I HIGHLY suggest you talk to an attorney FIRST.

My cousin is an attorney and a public defender at that. He would LOVE to nail someone for using a 33rd. magazine in a handgun. Overkill was not the word he used to describe using it....I think he said something like "only a crazed lunatic looking for a fight would use a magazine like that".

Best bet would be to keep one mag in the gun and another close at hand. I would highly suggest using the +2 glock baseplates on your glock. The total package would give you 38 rounds at your finger tips.

I have 2 of the 33rd. mags but only bring them out when I am in the desert and want to impress my buddies.



Thanks for the opinion on the reliability of 33 rd mags.

I am a sane, peace loving person with no criminal record. I believe in SC that when one has their home broken into it is considered self-defense. I do not think your cousin lawyer has any basis for his opinion. Does he feel the same about an AR15 with a 30 rd mag (as long as it is legal where he lives)? In this scenario, things happen so fast that one may not have time to change mags. It appears that gang violence is on the rise. We have been talking about the worst case scenario of a gang invasion. I will bring this up again with LE and lawyers that I know.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 2:34:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FALARAK:
If you use a G18 33rd mag designed for the Glock machine pistol in a self defense shooting, may God help you.



I am talking about a Glock manufactured mag (from my local gun store) in a Glock 17.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 2:38:28 PM EDT
regardless of who's who i would test and practice with the gear you plan to depend on.



if it works then it works
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 2:55:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Neo1:

Originally Posted By FALARAK:
If you use a G18 33rd mag designed for the Glock machine pistol in a self defense shooting, may God help you.



I am talking about a Glock manufactured mag (from my local gun store) in a Glock 17.



I know. Those mags are, as I stated, designed for the full auto G18. They happened to fit and work in the G17, because all the 9mm mags are interchangeable (provided they are long enough.)
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 3:22:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/19/2006 3:26:54 PM EDT by triburst1]
I use an AR carbine with 30 round mag as my primary home defense gun. I keep my G19 on the nightstand as well with the 15 round mag I use for CCW. I carry a 19 round mag as my standard spare and keep a 33 round mag in my car as a back up. If I was limited to the pistol for home defense, I would definately keep it loaded with one of my 33 round mags. It is not inconceivable that you might have to use suppressive fire in a HD situation if the perp takes cover. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS TOO MUCH AMMO IN A GUNFIGHT.

Link Posted: 3/19/2006 3:30:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Msokol13:
If you are really contemplating on using this for home defense I HIGHLY suggest you talk to an attorney FIRST.

My cousin is an attorney and a public defender at that. He would LOVE to nail someone for using a 33rd. magazine in a handgun. Overkill was not the word he used to describe using it....I think he said something like "only a crazed lunatic looking for a fight would use a magazine like that".



If you are that concerned about the legality of using a certain magazine, maybe one would be better served with sock full of quarters as a home defense weapon.

From a litigation standpoint, it doesn't matter whether you use a baseball bat, a single shot .22LR, an MP-5, or a chainsaw. If you were justified in using deadly force, it's all the same. Personally, I feel that it would be irresponsible of me to use anyting less than the most effective weapon in my arsenal to protect my family and home.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 3:38:47 PM EDT
I have never understood why defending you and your family to the best of your ability is frowned upon by the law. Apparently if i did it half-assed and barely survived because i was ill prepared that the law would approve of my actions. If i plan well and easily survive an attack then i am in the wrong and a "crazed lunatic" for defending myself well. Either way i will always try to have the best available equipment at my disposal and i have never heard of the 33 rd mags having anymore malfunctions than the standard mags.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 3:44:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/19/2006 3:44:43 PM EDT by metroplex]
My G18 33rd mags have reliability problems. The springs are too weak on some of the mags to "lift" the cartridges. After manually unloading 7 cartridges, the rest do not pop up. The spring sort of "creaks" and then the cartridges pop up. I tried slapping it and it doesn't do much. Some of the 33rd mags work like butter though.

The mags do stick out a lot, but when you grip the pistol properly, you do not notice the extra length from the mag at all. Some people are concerned about how much the mags stick out with the pistol holstered. In a SHTF situation, the only reason my Glock would be holstered is if I have a real primary weapon in hand (rifle/carbine) and I'd most likely be on the move (don't have to worry too much about it).

Bottom line is: Get 17rd mags for home defense / carry / etc.. get the 33rd mags for SHTF / range fun / carbines whenever they come out. Make sure to test/try all mags first before using it on a carry pistol. I am getting Wolff XP mag springs for the 33rd mags and then testing them again.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 3:52:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By triburst1:

Originally Posted By Msokol13:
If you are really contemplating on using this for home defense I HIGHLY suggest you talk to an attorney FIRST.

My cousin is an attorney and a public defender at that. He would LOVE to nail someone for using a 33rd. magazine in a handgun. Overkill was not the word he used to describe using it....I think he said something like "only a crazed lunatic looking for a fight would use a magazine like that".



If you are that concerned about the legality of using a certain magazine, maybe one would be better served with sock full of quarters as a home defense weapon.

From a litigation standpoint, it doesn't matter whether you use a baseball bat, a single shot .22LR, an MP-5, or a chainsaw. If you were justified in using deadly force, it's all the same. Personally, I feel that it would be irresponsible of me to use anyting less than the most effective weapon in my arsenal to protect my family and home.



TRIBURST1,

I am not sure you read my entire post correctly. These were the words of my cousin, not mine.

Personally I DO keep my 33rd mags loaded should the SHTF but I do not keep them in my gun. I much prefer using a Shotgun with #6 birdshot for a home defense weapon.

For the person that uses a AR-15 for your Home defense weapon I HIGHLY suggest keeping that locked in your safe and getting a shotgun.

Over-penetration will get you in A LOT of trouble, not to mention a bullet from a high powered rifle will be bouncing around your walls like a ping-pong ball. Also, the jury is not going to look at that as a sporting firearm. They will see it as a MACHINEGUN, I cant tell you the number of times when my girlfriends friends come over they say "OMG you have a machine gun", assume the jury is a bumch of anti-gun lovers!

EDITED TO ADD:

THESE ARE NOT MY WORDS....THEY ARE THE WORDS OF A HIGHLY SUCCESSFUL ATTORNEY WHO HAS BEEN DEFENDING GARBAGE FOR MANY YEARS.

I am sure you are starting to get the picture that my cousin and myself do not get along very well.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 6:13:33 PM EDT
If your cousin is trying to "nail" someone for defending their life, he doesn't sound like much of a defense atty...

Rule #1- Survive

If I have to strangle someone, stab them with a fork, gouge out eyes, slit their throat, or empty a 33 round mag into them to defend myself, so be it. No matter what you use, it can be argued it was the act of a crazy person...
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 6:25:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/19/2006 6:27:20 PM EDT by 55Kingpin]

Originally Posted By Msokol13:
I much prefer using a Shotgun with #6 birdshot for a home defense weapon.

For the person that uses a AR-15 for your Home defense weapon I HIGHLY suggest keeping that locked in your safe and getting a shotgun.

Over-penetration will get you in A LOT of trouble, not to mention a bullet from a high powered rifle will be bouncing around your walls like a ping-pong ball.



Does anybody even care anymore......

For the love of all that is holy please quit regurgitating this BS!!!

www.ammo-oracle.com
www.theboxotruth.com

Edited to fix the links.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 6:46:54 PM EDT
whatever works....i dont care which mag i use if i have to use it

as to reliablity: my factory mags work great
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 9:30:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Msokol13:

Originally Posted By triburst1:

Originally Posted By Msokol13:
If you are really contemplating on using this for home defense I HIGHLY suggest you talk to an attorney FIRST.

My cousin is an attorney and a public defender at that. He would LOVE to nail someone for using a 33rd. magazine in a handgun. Overkill was not the word he used to describe using it....I think he said something like "only a crazed lunatic looking for a fight would use a magazine like that".



If you are that concerned about the legality of using a certain magazine, maybe one would be better served with sock full of quarters as a home defense weapon.

From a litigation standpoint, it doesn't matter whether you use a baseball bat, a single shot .22LR, an MP-5, or a chainsaw. If you were justified in using deadly force, it's all the same. Personally, I feel that it would be irresponsible of me to use anyting less than the most effective weapon in my arsenal to protect my family and home.



TRIBURST1,

I am not sure you read my entire post correctly. These were the words of my cousin, not mine.

Personally I DO keep my 33rd mags loaded should the SHTF but I do not keep them in my gun. I much prefer using a Shotgun with #6 birdshot for a home defense weapon.

For the person that uses a AR-15 for your Home defense weapon I HIGHLY suggest keeping that locked in your safe and getting a shotgun.


Over-penetration will get you in A LOT of trouble, not to mention a bullet from a high powered rifle will be bouncing around your walls like a ping-pong ball. Also, the jury is not going to look at that as a sporting firearm. They will see it as a MACHINEGUN, I cant tell you the number of times when my girlfriends friends come over they say "OMG you have a machine gun", assume the jury is a bumch of anti-gun lovers!

EDITED TO ADD:

THESE ARE NOT MY WORDS....THEY ARE THE WORDS OF A HIGHLY SUCCESSFUL ATTORNEY WHO HAS BEEN DEFENDING GARBAGE FOR MANY YEARS.

I am sure you are starting to get the picture that my cousin and myself do not get along very well.



Dude, I cut the newbs some slack on this kind of misinformation, but you have been around here long enough to know better than to spread nonsense.

FOR THE 973rd TIME:
Birdshot is a TERRIBLE choice for home defense unless you are planning to defend your home from birds. Birdshot, BY DEFINITION, is designed to kill a small, light animal with hollow bones while doing as little damage as possible to the meat as possible. Do you really think it makes ANY kind of sense to use such as round against a vilolent 200 lb animal???? The pellets do not have enough mass to penetrate deep enough into the skull or torso to create a reliably fight stopping wound. I personally witnessed a 60 lb dog take 6 rounds of #6 birdshot at point blank range and still make it over a fence and run off into the woods.

If you must use a shotgun, AT LEAST use buckshot, of which plated #1 is the best.

5.56x45mm hollowpoint or softpoint ammo is an effective stopper and penetrates LESS than buckshot, slugs, or even hollow point handgun rounds, especially after passing through a target.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 9:41:34 PM EDT
30 round mags are for rifles, not handguns. If you want 30 round firpower, and handgun just isn't going to do it IMHO.

As for this house.......Glock within reach, AR ready to go not much farther away.

A pistol will not do a rifles work. Simple as that.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 9:48:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/19/2006 9:51:02 PM EDT by Msokol13]


You guys really crack me up!

Anyone who would consider using an AR-15 for home defense better have your ear plugs in. Seriously, has anyone here fired an AR-15 inside a gun range without ear protection?

Go ahead...use your AR-15

Also, bird shot is an EXCELLENT choice...Im sorry but you are WRONG. Bird shot will NOT penetrate sheetrock like a handgun or rifle.

If you dont think #6 birdshot will kill someone I'm sorry but you have not done your homework. Next time you go to Wally world buy a few watermelons. Set them up at a distance of 7 yds. and see what happens to it.

Buck Shot couldnt be more over-rated for home protection.

As for handgun ammunition. There are types of bullets specifically designed for home protection, I cant remember the name of it off the top of my head but I do remember each round is packaged individually and it usualy comes in a pack of 9 or so and has a BLUE tip.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 9:55:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FALARAK:

Originally Posted By Neo1:

Originally Posted By FALARAK:
If you use a G18 33rd mag designed for the Glock machine pistol in a self defense shooting, may God help you.



I am talking about a Glock manufactured mag (from my local gun store) in a Glock 17.



I know. Those mags are, as I stated, designed for the full auto G18. They happened to fit and work in the G17, because all the 9mm mags are interchangeable (provided they are long enough.)




Are you trolling, or are you just being facetious? How is using a G18 "machine gun" magazine any different than using an M16 "machine gun" magaine in your AR?
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 9:56:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Msokol13:


You guys really crack me up!

Anyone who would consider using an AR-15 for home defense better have your ear plugs in. Seriously, has anyone here fired an AR-15 inside a gun range without ear protection?

Go ahead...use your AR-15

Also, bird shot is an EXCELLENT choice...Im sorry but you are WRONG. Bird shot will NOT penetrate sheetrock like a handgun or rifle.

If you dont think #6 birdshot will kill someone I'm sorry but you have not done your homework. Next time you go to Wally world buy a few watermelons. Set them up at a distance of 7 yds. and see what happens to it.

Buck Shot couldnt be more over-rated for home protection.

As for handgun ammunition. There are types of bullets specifically designed for home protection, I cant remember the name of it off the top of my head but I do remember each round is packaged individually and it usualy comes in a pack of 9 or so and has a BLUE tip.




Go read all the FAQs in the ammo section and the Ammo Oracle. You are wrong. Birdshot is, to put it mildly, a stupid choice to use for home protection.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 10:00:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Msokol13:
My cousin is an attorney and a public defender at that. He would LOVE to nail someone for using a 33rd. magazine in a handgun. Overkill was not the word he used to describe using it....I think he said something like "only a crazed lunatic looking for a fight would use a magazine like that".




Here's an idea, how about you cite a news article referring to a home defense shooting in which the defendant lost in court because of his "evil" extended magazine.

Or you could just lay off the BS.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 10:04:38 PM EDT
show me proof that it wouldnt be used against you.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 10:07:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Msokol13:


You guys really crack me up!

Anyone who would consider using an AR-15 for home defense better have your ear plugs in. Seriously, has anyone here fired an AR-15 inside a gun range without ear protection?

Go ahead...use your AR-15

Also, bird shot is an EXCELLENT choice...Im sorry but you are WRONG. Bird shot will NOT penetrate sheetrock like a handgun or rifle.

If you dont think #6 birdshot will kill someone I'm sorry but you have not done your homework. Next time you go to Wally world buy a few watermelons. Set them up at a distance of 7 yds. and see what happens to it.



So are you saying that birdshot is suitable for use against violent birds AND attacking fruit? WTF does shooting watermelons have to do with ANYTHING??? Of course birdshot will not penetrate sheetrock like a handgun or rifle, it will also not penetrate people very well. I stated that HP 5.56mm will not penetrate as much as buckshot or slugs, which are the ONLY options informed people use in a shotgun against humans.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 10:18:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Msokol13:
show me proof that it wouldnt be used against you.




Exactly, you can't reference a situation where it ever happened. STFU.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 10:28:39 PM EDT
My wife has a S&W .38 special and two speed loaders close and I have a Glock 26 with 13 rounds handy for home defence. I have a 17 and 31 round mag close.

I'll use anything I need to use to survive an attack. If I have to smash the bad guy's head with my TV I will. I'm going to survive. To hell with him/her (aka bad guy/gal).

I don't have my AR out for home defence because I don't want to have to lock it up everytime I go out. It's easier to lock up a handgun than a carbine.

I would really hate coming home and being shot by my own weapon. That would suck.


______________________________



Link Posted: 3/20/2006 12:50:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By triburst1:

Originally Posted By Msokol13:


You guys really crack me up!

Anyone who would consider using an AR-15 for home defense better have your ear plugs in. Seriously, has anyone here fired an AR-15 inside a gun range without ear protection?

Go ahead...use your AR-15

Also, bird shot is an EXCELLENT choice...Im sorry but you are WRONG. Bird shot will NOT penetrate sheetrock like a handgun or rifle.

If you dont think #6 birdshot will kill someone I'm sorry but you have not done your homework. Next time you go to Wally world buy a few watermelons. Set them up at a distance of 7 yds. and see what happens to it.



So are you saying that birdshot is suitable for use against violent birds AND attacking fruit? WTF does shooting watermelons have to do with ANYTHING??? Of course birdshot will not penetrate sheetrock like a handgun or rifle, it will also not penetrate people very well. I stated that HP 5.56mm will not penetrate as much as buckshot or slugs, which are the ONLY options informed people use in a shotgun against humans.



So is he saying that a 12 gauge shotgun isn't loud indoors? I think that the 12 gauge shotguns were louder than my AR-15 at the outdoor ranges.
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 3:03:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By triburst1:

Originally Posted By Msokol13:


You guys really crack me up!

Anyone who would consider using an AR-15 for home defense better have your ear plugs in. Seriously, has anyone here fired an AR-15 inside a gun range without ear protection?

Go ahead...use your AR-15

Also, bird shot is an EXCELLENT choice...Im sorry but you are WRONG. Bird shot will NOT penetrate sheetrock like a handgun or rifle.

If you dont think #6 birdshot will kill someone I'm sorry but you have not done your homework. Next time you go to Wally world buy a few watermelons. Set them up at a distance of 7 yds. and see what happens to it.



So are you saying that birdshot is suitable for use against violent birds AND attacking fruit? WTF does shooting watermelons have to do with ANYTHING??? Of course birdshot will not penetrate sheetrock like a handgun or rifle, it will also not penetrate people very well. I stated that HP 5.56mm will not penetrate as much as buckshot or slugs, which are the ONLY options informed people use in a shotgun against humans.



Bird shot wounds look nasty as can be, but that's about it.

Although the guy was in pain, he was still mobile after multiple his with it.
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 3:20:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/20/2006 3:23:23 AM EDT by metroplex]
5.7x28 is slightly less louder than .223 Remington indoors. Overpenetration isn't a big issue as the SS190 Armor Piercing (well, not really but think of it like a light SS109 bullet) only yields about 12" penetration in 20% gel through the P90 (9"-10" in 10% gel w/ the Five-seveN pistol). However it does tumble fairly well and SS195 should fragment readily in soft tissue. Through free air, it only has a max effective range of about 200m (flat out that is) and it drops by as much as 10" or more as it continues. Thick clothing isn't an issue for 5.7x28 (any version).
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 5:57:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/20/2006 5:57:19 AM EDT by Msokol13]
Triburst1,

quit following me around in my posts you loser. Every post I've made you have been there to say something negative about my recommendations.

Wether you are doing that on purpose or not it is pretty coincidental

I will continue to use birdshot #4-#6 to defend my home. I will not live with the fact that the round I used over-penetrated and killed on of my familiy members.

If anyone here doesnt think it will do the trick I dare you to stand 10 feet away and take one to the chest.

Link Posted: 3/20/2006 6:04:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Msokol13:

If anyone here doesnt think it will do the trick I dare you to stand 10 feet away and take one to the chest.




There was something on the news about this recently
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 6:32:38 AM EDT
All of you talk about SHTF situations, and what your going to do if attacked in your homes, and how you have AR rifles and multiple handguns for self defense on the nightstand. Do you all live in the inner city? Maybe I just don't understand.

As far as the whole birdshot/shotgun argument, my two cent's worth. Unless the "attacker" is wearing body armor, birdshot is gonna do just fine. May not put a six inch hole in their chest, but they are going down.
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 6:34:34 AM EDT
I've been using my G18 mags with 2000+ through my OLY Glock AR with no problems at all. If I had a continuous problem with any of them I would toss them. I'm sure Glock puts out a dud every now and then, like any other mag company. I just load'em up and abuse them. If they make it through the gun drills they find a happy home. As for loading them in my G26, no thanks.
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 6:46:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/20/2006 6:47:08 AM EDT by metroplex]

Originally Posted By wolfpak:
I've been using my G18 mags with 2000+ through my OLY Glock AR with no problems at all. If I had a continuous problem with any of them I would toss them. I'm sure Glock puts out a dud every now and then, like any other mag company. I just load'em up and abuse them. If they make it through the gun drills they find a happy home. As for loading them in my G26, no thanks.



I take it that you only use brass cased stuff like say, WWB or Blazer alum/brass ?

More than half of my G18 mags choked on Brown Bear copper washed steel cased ammo. In order for the mags to be "SHTF-grade" they must run on the worst ammo you may potentially shoot. The G18 mag springs weren't strong enough to overcome the friction between the steel liner and copper washed steel cases. I took out the FP and hand cycled my G17 and the problematic mags were problems. I'm awaiting the Wolff XP springs to see if they will solve this problem.
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 7:59:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/20/2006 8:05:28 AM EDT by triburst1]

Originally Posted By Msokol13:
Triburst1,

quit following me around in my posts you loser. Every post I've made you have been there to say something negative about my recommendations.

Wether you are doing that on purpose or not it is pretty coincidental

I will continue to use birdshot #4-#6 to defend my home. I will not live with the fact that the round I used over-penetrated and killed on of my familiy members.

If anyone here doesnt think it will do the trick I dare you to stand 10 feet away and take one to the chest.




Go elsewhere if you can't take honset advice without getting your panties in a bunch. If you don't want to take the advice of those who are better informed, that's your business. At least have the decency not to make unsound reccomendations to others regarding personal defense.
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 8:09:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 55Kingpin:

Does anybody even care anymore......

For the love of all that is holy please quit regurgitating this BS!!!

www.ammo-oracle.com
www.theboxotruth.com

Edited to fix the links.



I'm quoting myself because I believe Msokol didn't even bother to go to these links and READ!!
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 9:13:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Cavalry99:
All of you talk about SHTF situations, and what your going to do if attacked in your homes, and how you have AR rifles and multiple handguns for self defense on the nightstand. Do you all live in the inner city? Maybe I just don't understand.It's not the odds, it's the stakes.

As far as the whole birdshot/shotgun argument, my two cent's worth. Unless the "attacker" is wearing body armor, birdshot is gonna do just fine. May not put a six inch hole in their chest, but they are going down.Wrong. Birdshot is TERRIBLE for use against humans.



Think logically for a moment. Does it make any sense that a round designed for killing quail would also be effective against a 200 pound human? Buckshot was invented so the traditional smoothbore could be used effectively to hunt deer. Would you consider trying to kill a deer at close range with birdshot?
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 9:45:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/20/2006 10:17:21 AM EDT by Msokol13]
First off I will go where I please on this website. I have that freedom!

Also, have you seen what #4-#6 birdshot will do to something at 10 feet or less. It is a messed up sight to see.

Regardless of whether you use buckshot or #6 birdshot you will destroy a target, I'm sorry...you can quote that ammo oracle and all that junk but most likely an intruder is NOT going to be wearing body armor and is NOT going to be made out of a block of geletone. In most cases since I live in the desert he will be wearing nothing more than a T-shirt.

Also, birdshot will do just fine. I would rather not get sued because of over penetration...killing my girlfriend or someone in the street nearby.

Your not going to change my mind, and telling me that I am giving bad advice is also childish. You are trying to prove you are right when you are not. It is the same argument for using 9mm vs. 45acp. The ONLY bad advice in this situation would be a SLUG.

So Triburst1, get over yourself.

Oh yeah, sorry this thread got jacked.

Triburst cant go on in life without know he is right, so this thread has gotten off topic quite a bit.

I'm done here.
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 9:58:45 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 10:56:48 AM EDT
Although my knowledge is new, I have done extensive reading on the net. I have not seen anyone recommending bird-shot for defense. On the other hand, if the primary concern is lack of penetration of walls then this seems reasonable. It seems that it would be somewhat akin to frangible ammo that the sky marshals use on planes. Something like the shotgun equivalent of a Glaser.

So maybe you are both right.

We have have to make our personal decisions based on our circumstances. For me it will be my AR15 and Glock 9mm for BU.

Getting back to the thread, I asked this question at another site and most have not had jamming problems with 31/33 rd mags.
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 11:23:12 AM EDT
Yeah, as I stated before I have a couple of them in my house. I keep them loaded most of the time full.

I have NEVER had a problem with any NEW Glock magazines. They are built to take a lot of punishment.

Link Posted: 3/20/2006 11:24:17 AM EDT
With Fireman's help I will repeat this from the other thread:

www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14.htm


Lessons learned:

1. Contrary to what we have been told, XM-193 does not seem to "fragment" when shot into drywall walls. After we were through for the day, we even shot several more rounds of XM-193 into the walls to see if we could get one to fragment. They did not.

It is clear that they were tumbling and deviating from the flight path, but they were still penetrating the walls.

Now, before anyone says it, No, I do not know how much damage they would do to someone after the 4th wall. But they would do some damage as they were still penetrating.

2. Remington 55 grain JSP and Frangible 5.56 also penetrated all 4 walls. So did the .30 Carbine.

When shooting rifles, walls are concealment, not cover.

3. 00 Buck penetrates 4 walls with ease. It is a great "Stopping" round, but there is a price to pay.

Until someone invents a "Phaser" like on Star Trek, anything that will stop a bad guy, will also penetrate several walls.

4. Birdshot does not excessively penetrate drywall walls. But it does not penetrate deeply enough to reach a bad guy's vital organs. Birdshot makes a nasty but shallow wound. It is not a good Stopper.

Use Birdshot for little birds. Use 00 Buckshot for bad guys.

Link Posted: 3/20/2006 12:08:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Msokol13:

Also, have you seen what #4-#6 birdshot will do to something at 10 feet or less. It is a messed up sight to see.



Yes, as I stated previously I witnessed a medium size dog take 6 rounds of #6 at point blank range. Yes, it did look nasty, but it had no apparent effect on the angry mutt.
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 12:49:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By metroplex:

Originally Posted By wolfpak:
I've been using my G18 mags with 2000+ through my OLY Glock AR with no problems at all. If I had a continuous problem with any of them I would toss them. I'm sure Glock puts out a dud every now and then, like any other mag company. I just load'em up and abuse them. If they make it through the gun drills they find a happy home. As for loading them in my G26, no thanks.



I take it that you only use brass cased stuff like say, WWB or Blazer alum/brass ?

More than half of my G18 mags choked on Brown Bear copper washed steel cased ammo. In order for the mags to be "SHTF-grade" they must run on the worst ammo you may potentially shoot. The G18 mag springs weren't strong enough to overcome the friction between the steel liner and copper washed steel cases. I took out the FP and hand cycled my G17 and the problematic mags were problems. I'm awaiting the Wolff XP springs to see if they will solve this problem.



I use Federal 9mm +P+ 115 GR HI-SHOK JHP and nothing else. I found a round that works for my pistols and OLY Glock so I stick with it.
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 2:24:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Msokol13:
Yeah, as I stated before I have a couple of them in my house. I keep them loaded most of the time full.

I have NEVER had a problem with any NEW Glock magazines. They are built to take a lot of punishment.




Are you implying I bought used Glock mags from Midway USA?
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 2:28:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By metroplex:

Originally Posted By Msokol13:
Yeah, as I stated before I have a couple of them in my house. I keep them loaded most of the time full.

I have NEVER had a problem with any NEW Glock magazines. They are built to take a lot of punishment.




Are you implying I bought used Glock mags from Midway USA?



Dont flatter yourself. I said NEW because I know that there are a lot of 1st/2nd generation pre-ban magazines out there that have seen better days and are not as reliable due to the fact that they have been used soo much.

On the other hand, there are a number of NEW magazines that STILL do not work. For example, my kimber magazines are not as reliable as my Wilson 47D's.
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 3:21:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Msokol13:

Originally Posted By metroplex:

Originally Posted By Msokol13:
Yeah, as I stated before I have a couple of them in my house. I keep them loaded most of the time full.

I have NEVER had a problem with any NEW Glock magazines. They are built to take a lot of punishment.




Are you implying I bought used Glock mags from Midway USA?



Dont flatter yourself. I said NEW because I know that there are a lot of 1st/2nd generation pre-ban magazines out there that have seen better days and are not as reliable due to the fact that they have been used soo much.

On the other hand, there are a number of NEW magazines that STILL do not work. For example, my kimber magazines are not as reliable as my Wilson 47D's.



Yeah, I still see 20 year old GLOCK mags for sale on a fairly regular basis. Generally, the older GLOCK mags are fine, but I would replace the springs as a precaution. Check the feed lips and make sure they aren't cracked. It is very unlikely that the feed lips of a GLOCK mag would be bent. Then again, considering that you can buy brand new GLOCK mags for as little as $13, what's the point?
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