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Posted: 4/3/2016 8:40:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: TCBA_Joe]
Since the original thread got locked on OP request...
https://www.ar15.com/forums/t_5_13/166746_Official_Roland_Special_Glock_19_thread___.html I thought it was an interesting discussion and I'm not sure why the OP requested a lock. While many seem to think that you just leave a Glock alone, it seems the best pistol shooters in the world have decided to put together their own custom guns. Pistol Forum discussion G&A Article There was a good thread on Primary and Secondary but you have to register to see it. 12/23/16 Update: I'm updating this thread a bit to include the term "fauxland special". The Roland special is a very specific setup: Glock 19 with frame work and slide milling, stock internals, KKM bbl and comp, Trijicon RMR, and an X300U. What about pistols following this functional theme but not actually being Roland Specials? Unlike a clone AR thread that balks at "inspired-by builds" I'm amending this thread it to include similar glocks that deviate from the specific configuration but fill the overall function: RDS and comp equipped Glocks that aren't competition oriented "open-class" rigs. G17s, ATOM/ZEV/etc slides, other optics, upgraded triggers and internals, TBRCI comps, non-KKM barrels, non-x300u lights, lonewolf/P80/CCF frames etc... do not a Roland make, but they are functional equivalents that are being termed "faux-lands". |
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Please, call me Joe
<font size=2>Follow me on Instagram! http://instagram.com/tcba_joe/</font id=s2> |
I'd like to have one for a fun range gun, not sure I'd carry one everyday though... If I could just buy the barrel and comp that be even better...
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Edited -AJE
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Edited -AJE
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Edited -AJE
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I'm all for vetting the source of the concept. It's necessary in order to vet the concept.
The big problem is the concept seems to be a CAG origin, same as the Geiselle 6-second mount and setup. However, because of the secretiveness of the units involved no one can actually corroborate that. Maybe 20 years from now we'll get a Glock book like the Vickers 1911 book. That said, lets keep this from being completely stupid. Anyone seen the Agency NOC? Seems to be the same concept done in a more expensive way. |
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Please, call me Joe
<font size=2>Follow me on Instagram! http://instagram.com/tcba_joe/</font id=s2> |
Edited -AJE
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Enough of this, or the thread will be locked. -AJE
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Originally Posted By TCBA_Joe:
I'm all for vetting the source of the concept. It's necessary in order to vet the concept. The big problem is the concept seems to be a CAG origin, same as the Geiselle 6-second mount and setup. However, because of the secretiveness of the units involved no one can actually corroborate that. Maybe 20 years from now we'll get a Glock book like the Vickers 1911 book. That said, lets keep this from being completely stupid. Anyone seen the Agency NOC? Seems to be the same concept done in a more expensive way. View Quote The NOC is very nice. With the comp on the NOC, the front sight is integrated into the comp area, which doesn't move with the slide. The NOC also has the same overall length as a G17, as opposed to the Roland Special, which has the same OAL as a G34, so the NOC is a more compact package. Agency makes a really solid product, but I'm not sure I could justify $3000+ for that setup, when I can build a Roland Special for about $2000-ish. |
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I'd like to get into Glocks, not because they stick out to me as a pistol, but because of what they are as a base gun. I've got money set aside for 2 G19s right now but our local blue label dealer is backordered months.
I'd like to build something like this down the road based on a Unity slide. Granted, I'm not a talented enough shooter to really appreciate this setup... Although as a former firearms test tech I really like watching the progression and seeing prosophobic gun owners melt down. |
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Please, call me Joe
<font size=2>Follow me on Instagram! http://instagram.com/tcba_joe/</font id=s2> |
Originally Posted By TCBA_Joe:
I'd like to get into Glocks, not because they stick out to me as a pistol, but because of what they are as a base gun. I've got money set aside for 2 G19s right now but our local blue label dealer is backordered months. I'd like to build something like this down the road based on a Unity slide. Granted, I'm not a talented enough shooter to really appreciate this setup... Although as a former firearms test tech I really like watching the progression and seeing prosophobic gun owners melt down. View Quote The Unity Tactical ATOM slides are super nice. I have one I used for a G19 build. It'd make a good base for a Roland Special build, as it already has the front serrations, and ability to mount an optic. |
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Regarding recoil springs, would people be going lighter or heavier with a comp? Less recoil (and 147 issues) makes me think lighter.
I like the Agency's design because the comp is so small, but companies might offer a single port short comp like KKMs bigger one. I've tried a bunch of RMRs and just don't think it's ready for he big time just yet. In another 5 years maybe we'll hopefully have great non-reciprocating red dots with bigger lenses that are still compact enough for CCW carry. |
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Originally Posted By eviljoe:
Regarding recoil springs, would people be going lighter or heavier with a comp? Less recoil (and 147 issues) makes me think lighter. I like the Agency's design because the comp is so small, but companies might offer a single port short comp like KKMs bigger one. I've tried a bunch of RMRs and just don't think it's ready for he big time just yet. In another 5 years maybe we'll hopefully have great non-reciprocating red dots with bigger lenses that are still compact enough for CCW carry. View Quote People are going lighter on spring weight. 13 pound, I believe, though I could be mistaken. There's no denying that the RMR has had its issues, however Trijicon keeps making in-line production changes to better suit the RMR for slide-mounting. I'm excited to see how the tech evolves in the coming years. |
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The trijicon seem to be at the top of the pack, but if I was looking for one now it would have to be new stock. (B/c of the changes having been made).
The DP Pro looks like another solid option but it isn't supported yet. I'd like to see how the KKM comp looks under NODs. |
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Please, call me Joe
<font size=2>Follow me on Instagram! http://instagram.com/tcba_joe/</font id=s2> |
Originally Posted By TCBA_Joe:
The trijicon seem to be at the top of the pack, but if I was looking for one now it would have to be new stock. (B/c of the changes having been made). The DP Pro looks like another solid option but it isn't supported yet. I'd like to see how the KKM comp looks under NODs. View Quote From my experience, even suppressed pistols can be bright under NODSs, depending on ammo selection, type of suppressor, etc.......so I'd imagine that the KKM comp would be nuts, but can't comment, as I sold off my NVGs after realizing I was sitting on $3000 worth of stuff I never used. Totally agree with you on the RMRs. I just bought two of them, all with SN's in the 177xxx range, and they definitely have different battery contacts than previous models I've had....and they have a magnet to help hold the battery still |
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I get the RDS part of this but I just dont understand the comp. A 19 doesnt move much at all anyway so why add weight and blast? I could maybe see a benefit if there was no dot with the front sight on the comp. Basically a sight tracker type set up but the dot negates that. With a comp its just one more thing to go wrong. The ones I am seeing appear to be held on with set screws unless they are rockset in place as well.
Its good to see people push for improvement and if this works for what they need more power to them. I remember Barnhart running the holosight back in the 90's looking like he had a computer on top of his pistol. Its pretty cool how far its come. |
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Originally Posted By JCIN:
I get the RDS part of this but I just dont understand the comp. A 19 doesnt move much at all anyway so why add weight and blast? I could maybe see a benefit if there was no dot with the front sight on the comp. Basically a sight tracker type set up but the dot negates that. With a comp its just one more thing to go wrong. The ones I am seeing appear to be held on with set screws unless they are rockset in place as well. Its good to see people push for improvement and if this works for what they need more power to them. I remember Barnhart running the holosight back in the 90's looking like he had a computer on top of his pistol. Its pretty cool how far its come. View Quote Shooting my issued G19 then shooting my Roland Special, there is a definite reduction in muzzle rise and felt recoil on the Roland Special, albeit at the price of increased concussion and muzzle flash. The cool thing about the KKM comp, is that it's proprietary barrel has flats perfectly indexed at 3 and 9, and uses rather large, fine threaded screws, so that seems to reduce the issue of them backing out. No issues with my comp moving yet. I don't use loctite or Vibra-Tite on my screws, and they haven't budged yet - however, I have less than 200 rounds thru my setup. If the screws start backing out, I suspect Vibra-Tite will be a much better solution than loctite, since the comp has to be removed to field strip. |
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Originally Posted By Airborne_Infantryman: Shooting my issued G19 then shooting my Roland Special, there is a definite reduction in muzzle rise and felt recoil on the Roland Special, albeit at the price of increased concussion and muzzle flash. The cool thing about the KKM comp, is that it's proprietary barrel has flats perfectly indexed at 3 and 9, and uses rather large, fine threaded screws, so that seems to reduce the issue of them backing out. No issues with my comp moving yet. I don't use loctite or Vibra-Tite on my screws, and they haven't budged yet - however, I have less than 200 rounds thru my setup. If the screws start backing out, I suspect Vibra-Tite will be a much better solution than loctite, since the comp has to be removed to field strip. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By Airborne_Infantryman: Originally Posted By JCIN: I get the RDS part of this but I just dont understand the comp. A 19 doesnt move much at all anyway so why add weight and blast? I could maybe see a benefit if there was no dot with the front sight on the comp. Basically a sight tracker type set up but the dot negates that. With a comp its just one more thing to go wrong. The ones I am seeing appear to be held on with set screws unless they are rockset in place as well. Its good to see people push for improvement and if this works for what they need more power to them. I remember Barnhart running the holosight back in the 90's looking like he had a computer on top of his pistol. Its pretty cool how far its come. Shooting my issued G19 then shooting my Roland Special, there is a definite reduction in muzzle rise and felt recoil on the Roland Special, albeit at the price of increased concussion and muzzle flash. The cool thing about the KKM comp, is that it's proprietary barrel has flats perfectly indexed at 3 and 9, and uses rather large, fine threaded screws, so that seems to reduce the issue of them backing out. No issues with my comp moving yet. I don't use loctite or Vibra-Tite on my screws, and they haven't budged yet - however, I have less than 200 rounds thru my setup. If the screws start backing out, I suspect Vibra-Tite will be a much better solution than loctite, since the comp has to be removed to field strip. |
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I assume this thread is about the 960 roland conversion? I read on the 460 how the case the thicker and it added some real power to the 45. What advantages does the 960 have or rather what more powerful catridge does it mimic? I heard when this first came out people said it wont do anything 357 sig doesnt do, but there has to be more to this cartridge than that?
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Originally Posted By UrbancommandoX:
I assume this thread is about the 960 roland conversion? I read on the 460 how the case the thicker and it added some real power to the 45. What advantages does the 960 have or rather what more powerful catridge does it mimic? I heard when this first came out people said it wont do anything 357 sig doesnt do, but there has to be more to this cartridge than that? View Quote Not Rowland... Roland. It's a G19 with a RDS, light, and KKM barrel and comp used by some super legit gunfighter types. |
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Please, call me Joe
<font size=2>Follow me on Instagram! http://instagram.com/tcba_joe/</font id=s2> |
Another pertinent thread from P-F.
DocGKR: G19 with RMR06 and KKM compensator |
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Please, call me Joe
<font size=2>Follow me on Instagram! http://instagram.com/tcba_joe/</font id=s2> |
I thought this was a 960 rowland thread.
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"Everyone has a plan until they get hit. "
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Do we have any instances where this set up has been in combat or seen duty use at any major metro PD in the US
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Referring to me: you have a very sarcastic and condescending and patronizing and insulting and demeaning way of 'being helpful"
Just the right amount of wrong. |
Originally Posted By ak4784:
Do we have any instances where this set up has been in combat or seen duty use at any major metro PD in the US View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By ak4784:
Do we have any instances where this set up has been in combat or seen duty use at any major metro PD in the US In use in Combat, apparently yes. However, the type of units that are supposedly using this setup don't talk about their work. In order to understand the legitimacy you need to know who is framing the discussion (DocGKR for instance) and read between the lines. So the P-F threads are a good (probably the best) place to find the info you are looking for. Unfortunately for us here, no one is going to say "the concept originated with MSG [Awesome] during his 20 years in [insert most recent classified name for Delta] where he's carried this weapon in Iraq, Syria, and China to take down HVTs while rescuing CIA agent hostages." No major PDs that I know of. PDs are way more conservative than any military SMU. One of the guys involved in this pistol set up is a Paul Howe, Kyle Lamb, Pat McNamara level of real world bad ass. Fact. Think about that for a second. |
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Please, call me Joe
<font size=2>Follow me on Instagram! http://instagram.com/tcba_joe/</font id=s2> |
Originally Posted By cowboy:
I doubt many major metro PDs are going to allow officer's to use guns that are made to kill people faster. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By cowboy:
Originally Posted By ak4784:
Do we have any instances where this set up has been in combat or seen duty use at any major metro PD in the US I doubt many major metro PDs are going to allow officer's to use guns that are made to kill people faster. Lol. Yup. Some of the politicians would have us using only kind words and smiles if they could. |
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I love how everyone has a hard on for this. This is exactly how I would expect a gun to be set up by people that are familiar with the concept of competition shooting, and yet have no deep mastery of the handgun platform.
The comp is lunacy on a 9mm gun, even the NATO stuff doesn't generate enough gas to need any sort of comp. Instead you have introduced ports and venting, and all the associated negative effects, for a pistol that is presumably used in tight quarters by "face shooters". Then, you've made the intentional choice to run a 19, instead of a 17, despite the fact that anyone with more than 5 minutes on a handgun shoots a 17 better, often 15-20% better. You've added a magwell, which is borderline retarded on a concealment piece, so you're just adding further mechanical complexity. Magwells on 19s don't often do that well with large/gloved hands either. Now, we've also added stippling. There are very, very few people who can stipple Glocks without reducing the integrity of the frame/grip. Not a good idea usually on a working gun. And of course, we declare that this is a "special" pistol, for "special" people, as if the concept and application can't then be critiqued. |
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Originally Posted By Middlelength:
I love how everyone has a hard on for this. This is exactly how I would expect a gun to be set up by people that are familiar with the concept of competition shooting, and yet have no deep mastery of the handgun platform. The comp is lunacy on a 9mm gun, even the NATO stuff doesn't generate enough gas to need any sort of comp. Instead you have introduced ports and venting, and all the associated negative effects, for a pistol that is presumably used in tight quarters by "face shooters". Then, you've made the intentional choice to run a 19, instead of a 17, despite the fact that anyone with more than 5 minutes on a handgun shoots a 17 better, often 15-20% better. You've added a magwell, which is borderline retarded on a concealment piece, so you're just adding further mechanical complexity. Magwells on 19s don't often do that well with large/gloved hands either. Now, we've also added stippling. There are very, very few people who can stipple Glocks without reducing the integrity of the frame/grip. Not a good idea usually on a working gun. And of course, we declare that this is a "special" pistol, for "special" people, as if the concept and application can't then be critiqued. View Quote You're missing the most important thing... they're sexy as fuck. Tech wise, the argument you could make is that most people are better off taking the money they would spend on milling a slide and buying a red dot and put it in ammo and a 3 day pistol course. I've done that numerous times over and I personally didn't see a noticeable improvement on 1 shot draw times or shot placement when I got a red dot gun. Maybe with multiple targets at distance, but even that was slight. Stippling is cosmetic but adds much needed grip in bad conditions. And anyone with an IQ above room temp can stipple a poly gun without breaking the damn thing. Magwells wouldn't add any "further mechanical complexity"... drop the bullet box out of the bang maker. Insert fresh bullet box into bang maker. If your magwell interferes with that, you have a bad magwell, bad bang maker or bad operator headspace timing. All of that still equals up to both sexy as fuck and used by good men doing bad things to bad people. Don't like it? Don't do one. Or dont post in a tech thread dedicated to one. You can critique all you want but bring something to the table besides cosmetics and claims. I'd like to see a source on "anyone with more than 5 minutes on a handgun shoots a 17 better, often 15-20% better". What is 15-20 %better? Accuracy, draw time, split times, reload times, what? |
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Referring to me: you have a very sarcastic and condescending and patronizing and insulting and demeaning way of 'being helpful"
Just the right amount of wrong. |
Forget the naysayers....I'm building one. Even if it's just to satisfy my own curiosity. I have several 19's so I'll do some head to head drills and see what happens.
I certainly don't get the "hate" for trying to chase after that 0.00001% of an advantage. Shouldn't we all strive to do the same? Physically, mentally, and even gear/tech wise? Sometimes I wonder about people on forums and if they're even actually shooters. To the topic at hand. Anybody have more intel on what ammo is preferred? I've read the 45 page P-F thread already.... |
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"A free people ought to be armed. - George Washington"
"You do not rise to the occasion in combat, you sink to the level of your training. - Lt. Col. Dave Grossman, On Combat" |
Originally Posted By Middlelength:
I love how everyone has a hard on for this. This is exactly how I would expect a gun to be set up by people that are familiar with the concept of competition shooting, and yet have no deep mastery of the handgun platform. The comp is lunacy on a 9mm gun, even the NATO stuff doesn't generate enough gas to need any sort of comp. Instead you have introduced ports and venting, and all the associated negative effects, for a pistol that is presumably used in tight quarters by "face shooters". Then, you've made the intentional choice to run a 19, instead of a 17, despite the fact that anyone with more than 5 minutes on a handgun shoots a 17 better, often 15-20% better. You've added a magwell, which is borderline retarded on a concealment piece, so you're just adding further mechanical complexity. Magwells on 19s don't often do that well with large/gloved hands either. Now, we've also added stippling. There are very, very few people who can stipple Glocks without reducing the integrity of the frame/grip. Not a good idea usually on a working gun. And of course, we declare that this is a "special" pistol, for "special" people, as if the concept and application can't then be critiqued. View Quote That claim is completely false. My agency issues a G17 or G19 per user choice. I shoot the G19 better than the 17, and regularly qualify between 98 to 100%. Our agencies qual consists of a TQC and also a qual at 25 meters to include weak hand and kneeling, etc. To say "anyone with more than 5 minutes on a handgun shoots a 17 better, often 15-20% better" is not correct. I, and many others at my agency are proof of that. As someone else said - don't like the concept? Don't build one. There's no need to insult the concept. I can understand skepticism, but to completely bash something you've never used, is narrow-minded. |
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Originally Posted By 55Kingpin:
Forget the naysayers....I'm building one. Even if it's just to satisfy my own curiosity. I have several 19's so I'll do some head to head drills and see what happens. I certainly don't get the "hate" for trying to chase after that 0.00001% of an advantage. Shouldn't we all strive to do the same? Physically, mentally, and even gear/tech wise? Sometimes I wonder about people on forums and if they're even actually shooters. To the topic at hand. Anybody have more intel on what ammo is preferred? I've read the 45 page P-F thread already.... View Quote I have no clue what the pipe hitters using the Roland use in real life, but mine loves ZQI 9mm NATO. |
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Originally Posted By Airborne_Infantryman:
I have no clue what the pipe hitters using the Roland use in real life, but mine loves ZQI 9mm NATO. View Quote Yeah, I'm not really concerned about what is used by the real deal guys. I'm just curious what others that actually have one are using and having good luck with. I'm going to try the following: 124gr Geco IPSC load 124gr Winchester NATO 124gr IMI NATO 124gr Underwood +p+ Gold Dots 147gr Underwood +p Gold Dots 147gr Speer Lawman I'm up for loading specifically for this gun as well. |
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"A free people ought to be armed. - George Washington"
"You do not rise to the occasion in combat, you sink to the level of your training. - Lt. Col. Dave Grossman, On Combat" |
Originally Posted By 55Kingpin:
Yeah, I'm not really concerned about what is used by the real deal guys. I'm just curious what others that actually have one are using and having good luck with. I'm going to try the following: 124gr Geco IPSC load 124gr Winchester NATO 124gr IMI NATO 124gr Underwood +p+ Gold Dots 147gr Underwood +p Gold Dots 147gr Speer Lawman I'm up for loading specifically for this gun as well. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By 55Kingpin:
Originally Posted By Airborne_Infantryman:
I have no clue what the pipe hitters using the Roland use in real life, but mine loves ZQI 9mm NATO. Yeah, I'm not really concerned about what is used by the real deal guys. I'm just curious what others that actually have one are using and having good luck with. I'm going to try the following: 124gr Geco IPSC load 124gr Winchester NATO 124gr IMI NATO 124gr Underwood +p+ Gold Dots 147gr Underwood +p Gold Dots 147gr Speer Lawman I'm up for loading specifically for this gun as well. The ZQI NATO is nice. I've shot some Federal aluminum 115 gr as well. I think I tried like 7-8 Speer Gold Dots too, but I don't recall the grain. |
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Originally Posted By TCBA_Joe:
In use in Combat, apparently yes. However, the type of units that are supposedly using this setup don't talk about their work. In order to understand the legitimacy you need to know who is framing the discussion (DocGKR for instance) and read between the lines. So the P-F threads are a good (probably the best) place to find the info you are looking for. Unfortunately for us here, no one is going to say "the concept originated with MSG [Awesome] during his 20 years in [insert most recent classified name for Delta] where he's carried this weapon in Iraq, Syria, and China to take down HVTs while rescuing CIA agent hostages." No major PDs that I know of. PDs are way more conservative than any military SMU. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By TCBA_Joe:
Originally Posted By ak4784:
Do we have any instances where this set up has been in combat or seen duty use at any major metro PD in the US In use in Combat, apparently yes. However, the type of units that are supposedly using this setup don't talk about their work. In order to understand the legitimacy you need to know who is framing the discussion (DocGKR for instance) and read between the lines. So the P-F threads are a good (probably the best) place to find the info you are looking for. Unfortunately for us here, no one is going to say "the concept originated with MSG [Awesome] during his 20 years in [insert most recent classified name for Delta] where he's carried this weapon in Iraq, Syria, and China to take down HVTs while rescuing CIA agent hostages." No major PDs that I know of. PDs are way more conservative than any military SMU. One of the guys involved in this pistol set up is a Paul Howe, Kyle Lamb, Pat McNamara level of real world bad ass. Fact. Think about that for a second. Gary cannot lawfully build, posses or transport a Roland Special in his home state. That FACT makes me question the legitimacy of the entire PF thread. |
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Bump. Going to the range tomorrow to try a larger variety of ammo in my Roland Special.
Will be trying - Perfecta 115 gr WWB 115 gr Liberty Civil Defense 50 gr +P Hornady Critical Duty 135gr |
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Originally Posted By Airborne_Infantryman:
Bump. Going to the range tomorrow to try a larger variety of ammo in my Roland Special. Will be trying - Perfecta 115 gr WWB 115 gr Liberty Civil Defense 50 gr +P Hornady Critical Duty 135gr View Quote Please post how the gun cycles with that target grade stuff. |
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Put me in the "I don't get it" camp. As well as "the fool and his money are soon parted" camp.
You guys that are building or buying these, what role are they going to play? CCW? HD? Range toy? |
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In real life I am very "libertarian" and support them fully. Perhaps take a lesson from the man who uses the screen name "beararms"--he is a real libertarian. - thebeekeeper1
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Originally Posted By wtturn:
Put me in the "I don't get it" camp. As well as "the fool and his money are soon parted" camp. You guys that are building or buying these, what role are they going to play? CCW? HD? Range toy? View Quote I have the money to burn, and it's a range toy. My issued G19 is what I carry constantly for CCW. |
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Originally Posted By wtturn:
Put me in the "I don't get it" camp. As well as "the fool and his money are soon parted" camp. You guys that are building or buying these, what role are they going to play? CCW? HD? Range toy? View Quote Answer: Yes, all the things. I wonder if this is how Henry Ford felt when all the horse asses were giving him shit about his dumbass motor coach.... Retorical question, and probably a far fetched analogy but it's late for me and I just don't get the hate. |
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"A free people ought to be armed. - George Washington"
"You do not rise to the occasion in combat, you sink to the level of your training. - Lt. Col. Dave Grossman, On Combat" |
Originally Posted By Airborne_Infantryman:
That claim is completely false. My agency issues a G17 or G19 per user choice. I shoot the G19 better than the 17, and regularly qualify between 98 to 100%. Our agencies qual consists of a TQC and also a qual at 25 meters to include weak hand and kneeling, etc. To say "anyone with more than 5 minutes on a handgun shoots a 17 better, often 15-20% better" is not correct. I, and many others at my agency are proof of that. As someone else said - don't like the concept? Don't build one. There's no need to insult the concept. I can understand skepticism, but to completely bash something you've never used, is narrow-minded. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By Airborne_Infantryman:
Originally Posted By Middlelength:
I love how everyone has a hard on for this. This is exactly how I would expect a gun to be set up by people that are familiar with the concept of competition shooting, and yet have no deep mastery of the handgun platform. The comp is lunacy on a 9mm gun, even the NATO stuff doesn't generate enough gas to need any sort of comp. Instead you have introduced ports and venting, and all the associated negative effects, for a pistol that is presumably used in tight quarters by "face shooters". Then, you've made the intentional choice to run a 19, instead of a 17, despite the fact that anyone with more than 5 minutes on a handgun shoots a 17 better, often 15-20% better. You've added a magwell, which is borderline retarded on a concealment piece, so you're just adding further mechanical complexity. Magwells on 19s don't often do that well with large/gloved hands either. Now, we've also added stippling. There are very, very few people who can stipple Glocks without reducing the integrity of the frame/grip. Not a good idea usually on a working gun. And of course, we declare that this is a "special" pistol, for "special" people, as if the concept and application can't then be critiqued. That claim is completely false. My agency issues a G17 or G19 per user choice. I shoot the G19 better than the 17, and regularly qualify between 98 to 100%. Our agencies qual consists of a TQC and also a qual at 25 meters to include weak hand and kneeling, etc. To say "anyone with more than 5 minutes on a handgun shoots a 17 better, often 15-20% better" is not correct. I, and many others at my agency are proof of that. As someone else said - don't like the concept? Don't build one. There's no need to insult the concept. I can understand skepticism, but to completely bash something you've never used, is narrow-minded. I dont know where he gets his.information. He'll go on and on about how 855 goes subsonic at 400 yards. He's had a few other humdingers as well that a can't remember but anything ML says = |
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"If you cant do something smart, do something right"
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Originally Posted By 55Kingpin:
Answer: Yes, all the things. I wonder if this is how Henry Ford felt when all the horse asses were giving him shit about his dumbass motor coach.... Retorical question, and probably a far fetched analogy but it's late for me and I just don't get the hate. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By 55Kingpin:
Originally Posted By wtturn:
Put me in the "I don't get it" camp. As well as "the fool and his money are soon parted" camp. You guys that are building or buying these, what role are they going to play? CCW? HD? Range toy? Answer: Yes, all the things. I wonder if this is how Henry Ford felt when all the horse asses were giving him shit about his dumbass motor coach.... Retorical question, and probably a far fetched analogy but it's late for me and I just don't get the hate. The only thing I dont really get is the comp. Besides that it seems like a kick ass HD gun |
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"If you cant do something smart, do something right"
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Originally Posted By 03RN:
The only thing I dont really get is the comp. Besides that it seems like a kick ass HD gun View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By 03RN:
Originally Posted By 55Kingpin:
Originally Posted By wtturn:
Put me in the "I don't get it" camp. As well as "the fool and his money are soon parted" camp. You guys that are building or buying these, what role are they going to play? CCW? HD? Range toy? Answer: Yes, all the things. I wonder if this is how Henry Ford felt when all the horse asses were giving him shit about his dumbass motor coach.... Retorical question, and probably a far fetched analogy but it's late for me and I just don't get the hate. The only thing I dont really get is the comp. Besides that it seems like a kick ass HD gun It's supposed to keep the gun flatter so you can track the red dot easier through recoil without losing it. |
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Please, call me Joe
<font size=2>Follow me on Instagram! http://instagram.com/tcba_joe/</font id=s2> |
I'll take a CWOCK
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wouldn't a Glock 17C with RMR accomplish the same thing?
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Originally Posted By MarkP:
wouldn't a Glock 17C with RMR accomplish the same thing? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes It was discussed somewhat here: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?15857-G19-with-RMR06-and-KKM-compensator/page4 What about stock "c" models? Not even close to the same thing, also they carbon up bad and have reliability issues according to reports I have Among other things, they strip the "plating" off of plated bullets; and we're seeing a lot more of those show up in the bulk pack or other economy cartridges... from big-three name brands.
Joe-Bob blasting away at beer cans in the back 40 probably wouldn't notice the resultant accuracy loss… but one's mileage may vary. That is really an interesting observation. I wonder if that is due to how Glock ported the barrel in the "C" models or how the gilding metal is applied to the bullet. In my experience with Hybra-Ported SP-101 revolvers, which are done by EDM, there is no rough edge or burr on the port, and no discernible bullet damage or scoring from recovered bullets. And that is with both lead SWC and JHP bullets. But there is some lead and powder than ends up in/around the ports. Cleaning one of these can be a bit challenging. I wonder if some debris is sticking to the edge of a port, causing the damage to the gilding metal. Jacket stripping is further discussed. There's some more discussion if you keep reading regarding the flash difference between the 17C and the G19-comp'd. Also questions regarding the weight of the comp being at least partially responsible for the recoil reduction. |
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Please, call me Joe
<font size=2>Follow me on Instagram! http://instagram.com/tcba_joe/</font id=s2> |
Don't have any pictures in my photobucket just yet, but I have a RMR on a Glock 19 with a KKM barrel and a lonewolf slide. No stippling. No magwell. No weapon light at this time (but I have some lying around that I could put on there). And no comp. This is my first RMR'ed pistol and I'm liking it. Not sure if I like it enough to carry it. but I have a T.Rex Sidecar being made for it in case I decide to try it out. Biggest advantage I've found is at 25 yards, being able to maintain focus on the target instead of the front sight has made my groups tighter and shots faster. Close in, I don't notice much of a difference.
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FBHO
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TCBA_Joe
thanks for the link, I'll give it a look. MP |
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I'm thinking this is some kind of April Fool's joke that just keeps on going.
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And of course, we declare that this is a "special" pistol, for "special" people, as if the concept and application can't then be critiqued. View Quote I think this is the main thing that is bugging me about this whole concept. The compensator just makes the whole thing stupid to me. Making up some bullshit about special ops just makes it a joke. You know what they need more than anything? A gun to work 100% of the time. The best way to do that is not to add a bunch of shit to it. I question the legitimacy of the claims that these are in any kind of widespread use in special operations. |
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GLOCK Armorer, USPSA addict
“Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a Glock 20 at your side, kid.” |
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