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Posted: 9/9/2003 10:32:33 AM EDT
Here's my situation
I turn 21 in 47 days, and have been considering carrying concealed. I goto school in Pittsburgh and the streets are getting meaner. This past weekend 4 'brothas forced themselves into a student's apartment and on the way out shot a resident in the arm. It seems to me that this sort of thing has only be escalating. IF that doesn't make me edgy, the Pittsubrgh Police laid off about 100 officers due to budget cuts. Also, my friends who stayed in town during the summer, said that criminal activity went up and the crimes were getting more and more ballsy. Now, most of the students live in a slummy section called Oakland. All the thugs know this where the students live and probably think we are easy pickings

Which brings me to this
-I refuse to be a victim
-I enjoy my life and will defend it tooth&nail
-I am going to get a permit and carry when I am not in uniform or headed to/in class

I have a few concerns
-Campus...I am pretty sure my school prohibits weapons on the campus. So will I have to be careful on how I transit on the weekends and when I am not in class?
-ROTC...I can only imagine the paperwork I would have to do if I shot and killed someone in self-defense. But when it comes down to it I rather be alive and an ex-cadet than be a dead Officer-Candidate
-If I DO shoot someone in self-defense what do I do? I'd assume I'd call 911 and get them medical attention. but what do you say other than that?

My tactical setup
-I live in north oakland, a nicer, but not by much part of town in a modern apartment complex with controlled entry. ( So I don't have to worry about home invasion as much )
-I still visit friends in the rougher parts of Oakland so I will def. carry
-

Firearms Background:
I started shooting in Boy Scouts where I earned rifle & shotgun Merit badges. I started to collect guns when I turned 18, so far I own one pistol a CZ-75. I almost got the small arms marksmenship ribbon when I went to AF Field Training.

Weapon Selection:
I will stick with 9mm since $ is a concern plus I am already familar with it and can practice more with it. I am leaning towards a Glock 26, CZ-PCR or CZ- P01. Whatever I buy I most likely will get a Tuckable IWB (Glaco or Highnoon) since this is the ideal setup for me. I will also carry my cell phone with me, so I can call for help etc...

Help me get my footing as I choose to exercise my god-given right to support my addiction to breathing ( a little attempt at humor )

As a footnote, if I go down this route I plan to practice with my pistol monthly if possible, and will exercise great judgement (not taking uneeded risks, not packing in the bar)

Thanks -Frank
Link Posted: 9/9/2003 10:47:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2003 11:05:48 AM EDT by M4_Aiming_at_U]
I cant answer all your questions, but here are a few comments.

1 Even if they hired 10,000 more cops that doesn't mean a damn thing. Police are there to enforce laws not protect you. Dont get me wrong, if a cop is in the right place at the right time and he can protect you, he/she will do so.

2nd. Carrying where your not supposed to. Tell me, how many times have you been going about your business and you have been stopped and searched?

None right. When you carry where your not supposed to be. Just be yourself and you will not be bothered with. Take it from me. I live in MD.
Go by these words;
"Getting arrested is temporary, death is forever"

Last, I'll tell you exactly what they would do with you IF and I mean a HUGE IF you get caught!

You will spend a night in jail, go to the commissioner's office and tell him how good of a student, person and sorry you are. Ask to be let out without bail since this is your first time running into the law.

When you go to trial your lawyer or hell even a public defender will get you Probation before judgment (meaning you were found not guilty).

Look I carry not only to protect myself. But when I am at school you are perfect victims for terrorism. And I am NOT going down without a fight.

I hope this helps.


I have been carrying for 16 years with never a problem.
Link Posted: 9/9/2003 1:48:10 PM EDT
All your questions are great! Part of taking your CCW class should be going over local laws! If you find a good instructor he should answer all your questions for you! As far as gun selection find something that works/fits you! If your leaning towards a Glock also check out the Springfeild XD! I have two of them and I like them much better than the Glocks, also you should be able to go to a .40 without a price increase(at least where I buy them)! I hope this helps and always refuse to be a victom!
Link Posted: 9/9/2003 4:00:32 PM EDT
I'm in the same situation maybe even worse. I goto AIP in downtown Pittsburgh and I don't have a car to get to school but if I did I still wouldn't pay for parking. So I take a bus so I wouldn't be able to leave my gun in my car if I had one. If I did have a car I'd still want to carry into school as my gun dosen't do my walk to the car any good if it's in it. It gets worse our school has night classes 6 - 9:30pm then my buss dosen't come till 10:20pm. So I'm stuck waiting for about 30min for it and I have to walk all the way across town to get to it about a 10 min walk. I just turned 21 but don't have money for a hand gun yet. I live in Avalon which is a pretty quiet place but I used to live in an apt right downtown. It was on 5th and penn ave and I was on the 11th floor it was a pretty secure building with E card entry. I can tell you I have heard on many occasion gun shots at night ringing out in the city or near by across the river. The dorms for our school are across the river on the north side and the school is on the south side of the city by the smithfield street bridge. It's about a 25-30min walk and I've heard of one student from our school being shot after crossing the bridge on the way home to the dorms at night. That was about 4 yrs ago and I didn't know the person. The story came from a girl my parents knew that they talked to about the dorms trying to decide where I should stay. Another friend of my parents has a son that went to school in pittsburgh and got involved with a drug dealer down there. He owed money and one nite the guy came over and being a familiar person his girlfriend let him in. He then proceded into his bedroom and shot him in the face. Miraclaciously he lived but I'm sure indured a good ammount a sugery and a scar. So the two worst stories have come from my parents but they do not think it's a good idea for me to carry. I do have a little walther p22 and my dad said just keep that at your place and unload it if someone tries to break in and it will scare them off. My mom dosen't even like seeing me cleaning my guns she so anti gun the sight of one makes her nervous. My dad got me a little can of pepper spray when I started down there and said nobody would bother me being I'm 6'1" 200lbs. Nobody has except for money and I've been there for 2yrs. Of course that dosen't mean nobody will. So I'm on my own to get a gun and I don't work to make any money for one. Of cousre my girlfriend has a ton of cash and she's getting a 9mm just to keep at her very quiet slippery rock apt. Getting a permit in PA is pretty easy. I think you just apply and don't need a course though I'd want to take a course anyway to learn all the laws and tactics.
Link Posted: 9/9/2003 4:03:25 PM EDT
Say by the way are you in the National Guard if so where's your unit?
Link Posted: 9/9/2003 4:38:53 PM EDT
rotcboy,
Carrying concealed and drawing your gun is for when your life or the life of another is about to be taken, or is in imminent danger, not for scaring or harrassing anyone who may be harrassing you. If the bar is a problem area...it is easier to stay out of it, than to get killed or kill someone. Pitt and CMU may have a no gun policy. Oakland is no picnic area, for sure. If you get a gun for concealed carry, shoot weekly for the first couple of months, learn to handle it, draw it from concealment unloaded, at first, then loaded. Practice, practice, practice and practice some more. If you shoot someone who is threatening your life, call 911 for medical help and make no statements to anyone until you talk with your lawyer present.
Link Posted: 9/9/2003 4:56:57 PM EDT
Markman,
Avalon may be quiet, but waiting for the bus on Smithfield is no picnic corner. When I was in school at Duquesne, I was waiting for the bus when a guy was gunned down at a restaurant near the bus stop in the late seventies during the war for control of the houses of ill-repute. Downtown Pittsburgh and Oakland are both not too cool areas. For the carry permit, you can get them at the County Building and Sheriff DeFazio's office. They do a computer check and take your picture the same day and issue the permit. The permit is for 5 years. There are a number of sportsmen's clubs in the Pittsburgh area. You can also shoot at Anthony Arms, West Mifflin, at the indoor range or at Pitcairn-Monroeville Club, which also has an indoor range. There is a range also out by Pittsburgh International airport.Most run about $10 an hour, plus you need to buy the ammo from them and they also have instructors.. good luck. Not having a car or access to a friend with one, makes getting to a range a problem. You can get to the West Mifflin spot on PAT
I would also carry pepper spray and not hesitate to use it if accosted.
Link Posted: 9/9/2003 5:37:02 PM EDT
Hmmm... Price of a new pistol...

Price of a lawyer, cost of getting busted...

hmmm....


Walk away,

keep your mouth shut,

don't use the gun again.

Call me stupid, but the crime rate wouldn't be so bad if the cops were that good. CSI is a TV show, not reality.
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 5:01:53 AM EDT
North Oakland may be nicer, but there was a guy back in '94 or '95...I forget his name, but he was walking his date home on Dithridge street and some shit bag followed them down the street and capped him. The bullet severed his spine now the guy is paralyzed below the waist.

As far as M4AiminAtYou saying about getting probation from a judge--you wouldn't even get that; you'd be handled by the University's internal system, as you're not breaking any laws, only University Policy. And that's IF you got caught on campus.

I lived in S. Oakland for a couple years and while it's got a bad rep, I only heard of a couple muggings during that time. Stay safe and enjoy the city; Pittsburgh is a fine town!

-Nick Viejo.
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 3:27:50 PM EDT
I'm in a simular situation. I'm in school at University of Southern Miss, Nation Guard here and an ROTC cadet. I know a couple of cadre at my school have CCW's or carry in their car (it's legal to carry concealed in your car without a permit in MS). A couple of other cadets have their permits as well as several guys in my unit. Just don't carry where it is illegal. If you live on campus you might want to concider moving off campus so you can have a "legal" right to have a weapon in your living quarters. Overall, if you keep everything legal and do ever get involved in a shooting I think you will be fine as long as it's a good shoot. I can't imagine it affecting your military career, but then where I live it's probably a bit more conservative than pittsburg.
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 3:55:17 PM EDT
What are you all talking about not carrying on campus!

I guarantee you that in the upcoming years terrorists will target college campuses and you may be caught unarmed.
Sure being armed wont help if its a bomb, but what if its a Muslim with an AK?
You need to be armed on campus. If not for your protection maybe your schools or a girl walking through a dark hall that is about to get raped.

Carry everywhere!
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 6:42:46 PM EDT
sepulchrave,
Gawd!! It's PittsburgH, NOT Pittsburg!!
We still have the H, as they used to say, cause they haven't knocked the HELL out of us YET!! <grin>
Link Posted: 9/11/2003 1:37:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Adam_White:
Hmmm... Price of a new pistol...

Price of a lawyer, cost of getting busted...

hmmm....


Walk away,

keep your mouth shut,

don't use the gun again.

Call me stupid, but the crime rate wouldn't be so bad if the cops were that good. CSI is a TV show, not reality.


i disagree. it's not the cops catching you that i'd worry about. it's yourself. there is no statute of limitations on murder that i'm aware of, so "keeping your mouth shut" means taking this one to the grave. granted i've got skeletons in my closet like everyone else but killing a man, even if your in the right, is a tough cross to bear. if you run, and for whatever reason your caught later, you've lost the mantle of innocence by fleeing. why would a person who did the right thing run? i think if your willing to carry leathal force in the defense of yourself and your loved ones you also need to accept the ramifications that come with it. that's why you take a CCW class. and get training. and more training. if you can't mabye a taser or OC spray is a better fit for you. good luck and stay safe
Link Posted: 9/14/2003 5:39:45 AM EDT
The hardest part in carrying a weapon where you are not supposed to have it is making sure NOBODY knows you have it. Never talk about it, never show it, never touch it, never look at it, never drop hints, nothing. A good cheap conceal carry method is a roll of wide ace bandage tape around the middle of your chest like you would have if your ribs were busted. Keeping the pistol high and centered on your chest will avoid most quick pat downs and is not a contact area encountered accidentally. Its not for quick draw but can easily be reached through the top of your shirt. Another way is a hollowed out book. Bibles are great. Leave about 1/4 of the front and back pages intact for support. Keep a large rubber band around it so it won't open accidentally. Use a nice colorful cloth bookmarker attached to the trigger guard hanging out so you can get it out fast. These methods are what I use traveling with my Walther PP. Little white haired Ma & Pa, well worn bible on the car console, Walther PP with Glasers right after Genesis.

rk
Link Posted: 9/14/2003 5:32:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/14/2003 5:32:44 PM EDT by RugerCal480]
Gawd axl,
I like your evil mind! <laughing>
and right after Genesis, no less!!
Link Posted: 9/15/2003 2:33:46 PM EDT
I'll probably get flamed for this but here goes. When you carry you carry for your protection and of those known to you. You do not carry to make citizens arrests or to break up crimes in progress. Do you really know the whole story and who the primary aggressor is if you have not seen the whole thing? Word to the wise carry a cell phone, and a gun. Shoot those who try to harm you and yours. Call the cops for everything else. If that individual wants protection let them get there own permit. If you get involved in something mid way through who's to say the roles haven't reversed and you just shot the victim who got the upper hand as you approached.
Link Posted: 9/15/2003 2:51:58 PM EDT
Ok folks, here's a few things to consider:

1. He's in PA. No "CCW class" or anything other than being 21 is required to get a permit.

2. Title 18 § 912 defines possession of weapons on school property. Here is the text:

Title 18 § 912 Possession of weapon on school property.


(a) Definition.--Notwithstanding the definition of "weapon" in section 907 (relating to possessing instruments of crime), "weapon" for purposes of this section shall include but not be limited to any knife, cutting instrument, cutting tool, nun-chuck stick, firearm, shotgun, rifle and any other tool, instrument or implement capable of inflicting serious bodily injury.

(b) Offense defined.--A person commits a misdemeanor of the first degree if he possesses a weapon in the buildings of, on the grounds of, or in any conveyance providing transportation to or from any elementary or secondary publicly-funded educational institution, any elementary or secondary private school licensed by the Department of Education or any elementary or secondary parochial school.

(c) Defense.--It shall be a defense that the weapon is possessed and used in conjunction with a lawful supervised school activity or course or is possessed for other lawful purpose.


You will notice that it does not include anything other than an elementary or secondary school. Colleges are not included, not to mention the fact that section (d) would likely be an affirmative defense for a CCW holder (though it has never been tested in PA courts).

So by carry to his college classes he is not breaking any laws. The college might have a policy about it, but no criminal offense will have been committed.

3. "Concealed means concealed." Keep it concealed and you have nothing to worry about.



Link Posted: 9/15/2003 11:04:55 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/16/2003 10:14:29 AM EDT
You must read Massad Ayoob's book "In The Gravest Extreme" It can be purchased from many places online. Here is a link to Massad's web site.

http://www.ayoob.com/cgi-bin/miva?Merchant2/merchant.mv+Screen=PROD&Store_Code=Ayoob&Product_Code=GE&Category_Code=AMAB
Link Posted: 9/16/2003 7:13:30 PM EDT
M4_aiming@U is right...

I am a junior and will be 21 in december... cannot remember the last I was stopped and searched...

In PA too... it's not a crime to carry at school, only thing the school says is 'no firearms, fireworks, or knives'. 'woo'.

Sadly though my normal CCW will be a .22 U22 Neo (4.5) when not on campus and an old Iver-johnson .32S&W on the ankle otherwise... though I might get a Glock 30 (.45ACP compact) or something else (CZ 75B?)... didn't I start another thread? Search not helping. =(
Link Posted: 9/17/2003 11:38:58 AM EDT
As a PGH resident and a graduate of some of the local "higher Learning Institutions" I must say that I never ran into a problem while carrying concealed on U of Pitt's campus.

However, while going to IUP I was pulled over by a campus cop for driving around a pedestrian while trying to get to class. Stupid move on my part. He asked for the usual stuff, which I provided. When I got my paperwork from the glove box one of my extra pistol mags was clearly visible. The officer saw it, looked at my papers and asked me if I was carrying and if I had a permit. I provided said officer with my CCW permit. After looking it over I had all my paperwork back, licenses back, and iwas free to go. That was that. There was no panic, not calling for backup, nothing. Of course it was a campus cop who looked younger than I.

North Oakland is going to down the Sh*thole very quickly. I know several students that have decided to GTFO of there because of the drug traffic moving in from the hill and other happy areas. My favorite was always the "homeless" people on Frobes ave. Most were crackheads looking for a fix.
Link Posted: 9/17/2003 12:07:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rotcboy:
Here's my situation
I turn 21 in 47 days

I started to collect guns when I turned 18, so far I own one pistol a CZ-75.



Um, isn't this illegal? I thought you had to be 21 to own a handgun.
Link Posted: 9/17/2003 12:43:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jtb33:

Originally Posted By rotcboy:
Here's my situation
I turn 21 in 47 days

I started to collect guns when I turned 18, so far I own one pistol a CZ-75.



Um, isn't this illegal? I thought you had to be 21 to own a handgun.




Anybody got the pic with the "Not this shit again" caption?

MOST places you only have to be 21 to BUY a pistol, possesion is different. Some states have rules agains that though, too, and I don't know what they are in PA. But the Fed law is just for purchasing.
Link Posted: 9/17/2003 12:57:09 PM EDT
Alright, calm down... I was just asking.
Link Posted: 9/17/2003 5:23:24 PM EDT
Thanks for everyone's input. Especially those who live in the PGH area and know what I am talking about.

I think I have pretty much settled out my doubts, especially when talking to other cadets about how we feel the security is around our campus (I know of at least 2 cadets who have had their apartment broken into, and another cadet who was mugged)

I will pick up "In the gravest extreme" by Ayoob and look into a CCW course in the area. I probably won't carry while in Uniform or in Class.

My main rig will most likely be a Glock 26 stoked with Speer Gold Dots in a Tuckable IWB Holster with an xtra mag
I am also considering a Kel Tec P3AT for a quick pocket pistol if I have to head out quickly and don't want to worry about the holster, belt, etc...

Again, thanks for the input and starting Oct 26 I am going to be a lot more pro-active in my personal safety

-Frank
Link Posted: 9/17/2003 6:33:06 PM EDT
Thanks for everyone's input. Especially those who live in the PGH area and know what I am talking about.

I think I have pretty much settled out my doubts, especially when talking to other cadets about how we feel the security is around our campus (I know of at least 2 cadets who have had their apartment broken into, and another cadet who was mugged)

I will pick up "In the gravest extreme" by Ayoob and look into a CCW course in the area. I probably won't carry while in Uniform or in Class.

My main rig will most likely be a Glock 26 stoked with Speer Gold Dots in a Tuckable IWB Holster with an xtra mag
I am also considering a Kel Tec P3AT for a quick pocket pistol if I have to head out quickly and don't want to worry about the holster, belt, etc...

Again, thanks for the input and starting Oct 26 I am going to be a lot more pro-active in my personal safety

-Frank
Link Posted: 9/26/2003 8:13:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/26/2003 8:15:15 PM EDT by fight4yourrights]

Originally Posted By Troy:

"Officer, this man was going to kill me, and forced me to shoot him in self-defense. I'd like to speak to my lawyer before answering any more questions."



NO NO NO!!!

Troy is WRONG on this one.

The way it's set up in Pennsylvania, it's illegal to kill someone. IF the cops prove you killed someone, then YOU have to provide an affirmative defense that it was justified. Think "exceptions". Self defense is one of those.

Consequently, the lawyer going over this with us said to tell the cops:

"MY LAWYER HAS INSTRUCTED ME THAT IF I AM EVER INVOLVED IN A SHOOTING, OR A WITNESS TO A SHOOTING, THAT I AM NOT TO SPEAK ABOUT THE INCIDENT WITHOUT MY LAWYER BEING PRESENT"

That way, you aren't ADMITTING that you shot the BG. Make the State work and prove it. If they can't, you'll save a lot of $$, even for a good shoot.


Originally Posted By Troy:And then, SHUT THE F___ UP!


Here, Troy is 100% right (as usual)
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