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Posted: 3/27/2006 1:44:23 AM EDT
Stolen from The Tactical Edge by Charles Remsberg, but worthy of mention here, for further education:

A dog's anatomy can offer strong resistance both to firearms and survival knives. His bony, sloping head may deflect or absord rounds before they reach his small brain. In a large dog, the carotid arteries buried deep under muscle-hard to cut-and the more easily reached jugular veins won't bleed out in time to keep you from being harmed. To reach his heart, you may need a knife with at least a 6 inch blade, and eben then, in the fury of the attack, be able to place it accurately through his ribs or the base of the throat. Sometimes you may be able improvise. About to be attacked, a California state trooper shoved his radio in the dog's mouth.

Your sidearmed is probably you best defense, despite its handicaps. With large, savage dogs, multiple body shots may be required to be effective. For the fastest-stopping head hit, shoot upward into the dog's open mouth, where your slug is likely to penetrate the brain. Another prime target is the area across his eyes. To hit there, though, you'll probably need to wait until he clamps his jaws on you so you'll have a more stationary target. That is, if you can endure the pain involved. The pressure per square inch that the jaws of a large dog can inflict is roughly equivalent to four refrigerators being stacked on top of each other on your arm. If you do shoot under these circumstances, try to contact the dog's bady with your muzzle. This will discharge damaging gases into him as well as lead.




There's more that I will add later, but this is something to think about. On several different boards I have been told that dogs are not considered a problem, and do not need any special attention. We have gone over this before here, and I would say a confrontation with a dog is probably more likely than an armed confrontation with a person.

I'll put more to this later, but this is something to provoke thought and discussion.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 1:46:59 AM EDT
I wonder if an ASP would be a viable alternative.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 2:13:33 AM EDT
I can see how You're both right. My friend's grandfather was an escapee from a concentration camp and he taught us how to kill dogs. He carried a big stick in each hand and when a dog came on him he's wave the weak-hand stick threateningly and the dog would instinctively lunge for and lock on it. Then he would bash the dog's skull with the strong-hand stick and repeat as necessary.

If you walked a neighborhood where there was known dog problem or you were overly cautious, I suppose that the same could apply. You just wave the ASP in the dog's face and as he lunged and tore at it you reach for the pistol and place the shot(s) wherever necessary.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 4:50:58 AM EDT
Here's some more from the same section, specifically regarding striking weapons on dogs


An alternative is your flashlight. Shining a high-intensity light into the eyes of some dogs will scare them off. If the dog attacks, smashing a metal flashlight on his skull can crush it.

Maybe when he bites, though, it's your gun hand he chomps, or perhaps there's some other reason you can or won't use dealy force. Your best empty-hand defense against his jaws is to get him off his feet. This disorients the most dogs because it breaks their balance and puts you in control. With both hands (if possible, otherwise, just your free hand), grab a fistfull of his hide-not just his fur-along and just under the ears. Hold firmly and lift him up completely off his paws. An untrained dog can be easily flung hard against a wall or drop-kicked away from you, buying you time to regroup. An average-strength officer can throw even a 120-pound dog, although you may need to swing him, like a discus thrower, to do it.

A trained dog may still hang on with incredible tolerance to pain. Here, if you're able to lift him, kick him hard in the testicles, the underbelly, or the rib cage. Well-placed kicks will have much the same effect as they would on a man, and may even kill or cripple him. But it may require more and harder kicks to shatter his pain barrier. You may also be able to strike a quick blow to his larynx, which is exposed about like it is on humans...or to attack the eyes. Or stick your finger up his rectum as a distractor. Another possibility is to work your thumb in the side and rear of his mouth. There are no teeth back there. You may be able to press down hard enough to break his jaw...or shove your thumb down his throat. When he gags, a good grip on hide can wrench him loose. Understand, though, that attack-trained dogs will be tough to defeat. Some authroties, for example, estimate that even a black belt martial artist will only have about a %30 chance of overcoming a trained Doberman empty-handed.

If there's warning that the dog is coming at you, try to sidestep his lunge and hammer him with a powerful kick to the ribs as he goes past. With some breeds, you'll need exceptional speed and timing. Dobermans, for instance, are so agile they can literally change direction in midair.

Another option is to try to channel the dog's attack so you're in a good position to attack him. Although some may have been taught to go for your throat or crotch, most will sieze the nearest target. So if you see him coming, extend your arm. Once he grips it, jerk him off the floor and begins your counterassault. If he does aim for another part of your body, you may at least be able to block him with your out-thrust limb.





I hope all who read this can take something away from it that helps. Obviously, it is a much better option to solve the dog problem before it comes to contact distance, but many here have attested to being unable to for various reasons.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 5:40:11 AM EDT
The best parts of this article are shoving a finger in the dogs rectum and the statement "Dobermans, for instance, are so agile they can literally change direction in midair."

Apparently, physics doesn't apply to dogs.

Otherwise, some pretty good information. I remember hearing something about pit-bulls having a "locking jaw" where once they clamp on, they literally can't let go until their muscles have a chance to relax. In that case, unless you tear your flesh away, that dog isn't letting go and killing it is your only option. If you're not carrying a weapon, beating that dog to death is going to take a LONG time.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 6:47:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/29/2006 6:48:20 AM EDT by triburst1]
OC/pepper spray is very effective on dogs.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 7:00:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By vanilla_gorilla:
Here's some more from the same section, specifically regarding striking weapons on dogs


stick your finger up his rectum as a distractor




I hope all who read this can take something away from it that helps.




Check the dog's oil? This guy must have been paid by the word for his article
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 8:03:32 AM EDT
Great information

I've considered dog attacks before. The outcome is never good.

I always thought that breaking the jaw would be the best attempt at thwarting a dog attack, empty handed.

Pulling a dogs jaws apart breaking the mandible away from his skull. It sounds bad, but me and the boys practice this move all the time.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 8:48:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/29/2006 8:50:23 AM EDT by rlcanon]
I'm a little skeptical of any tactical advice that comes from somebody that says a dog can change directions in mid air! It's also a little sketchy that a dog's skull may be crushed by a flashlight (an n cell tactical light?) while a bullet is going to bounce off or "absorb". I'm also reluctant to believe that a dog will become more stationary once it's clamped on your arm. In the few dogfights I've seen they tend to shake vigorously once they get a good grip. I'm surprised that the author didn't point out that a reach around along with that finger action would be even more distracting. Hell, you might even make a new friend.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 8:49:23 AM EDT
I have had one bad encounter with a dog, and needless to say I won.

My neighbors used to train pit bulls to fight and it was a very touchy situation. They were not the highest caliber of people. Their dog pens were up on the edge of their property which was right next door to my backyard.

I was often concerned about one of their happy little pups getting loose as the dogs were mistreated, poorly fed, and beaten.

Without going into all the details lets just say one got loose and was in my yard. My neighbors were not home (or at least not answering the phone when we called) and animal control said they would be there in a few hours.

I made a decison based on anger rather than logic and went outside to mow the lawn. I carred my Smith .357 with me and went about my business. Let's just say that I saw the dog, it saw me, and it wasn't going to come over to play. One bullet to the skull, and no more doggy. I was damn lucky because it was close when I first saw it and it was closing fast. Stupid of me, but then again I was angry and that's when people do stupid things.

Luckily it was only a few weeks later that the neighbors "went away" thanks to the police. They never did get angry about their dog and the police didn't seem to have a problem with it either since someone called them to report my shot.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 9:22:50 AM EDT
I think the author was trying to emphasize the point that dogs are very agile, but it does sound cheesy to say that a dobie can change direction in the air.

I can see the gut shot or the shot at the testicles working. I ain't gonna poke a German Shepherd in the pooper, the logistics of trying to to that just don't make sense to me at all.


Even with a baton I would aim for the snout, neck/spine. Dog skulls are pretty tough, and I don't have enough experience bashing them in the head to feel comfortable with the idea.

Link Posted: 3/29/2006 9:51:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By wgjhsafT:
I carred my Smith .357 with me and went about my business.



I just realized that animals can take some heavy beatings. The regular old 9mm and 45 acp may not be the optimum choice for dogs.

Good thing I picked up a .44 that will "blow the head clean off," and be very versatile on deadly beasts of nature
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 10:40:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By yekimak:
I think the author was trying to emphasize the point that dogs are very agile, but it does sound cheesy to say that a dobie can change direction in the air.

I can see the gut shot or the shot at the testicles working. I ain't gonna poke a German Shepherd in the pooper, the logistics of trying to to that just don't make sense to me at all.


Even with a baton I would aim for the snout, neck/spine. Dog skulls are pretty tough, and I don't have enough experience bashing them in the head to feel comfortable with the idea.





I, too, though the thing about the Dobie's was cheesy, but I'm willing to deal with that, because there IS some good info in there. I'm still not sticking my finger in a dog's butt though.

I think the testicle shot is thought-provoking. Out of everything I would do if attacked, I never thought of this, one of the simplest actions there is.

As far as the flashlights, this was written back when cops carried those HUGE maglights that often worked even better than a baton. My UlstraStinger won't crush a skull, it's much better suited for attempting to redirect the lunging attack, or for poking in the throat area.


I'm also reluctant to believe that a dog will become more stationary once it's clamped on your arm.


Take the statement in context. If bitten you should already be attempting immobilize the dog. I'm particularly fond of my mental picture of picking up a dog and slamming it into a wall.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 11:31:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By wgjhsafT:
I have had one bad encounter with a dog, and needless to say I won.

My neighbors used to train pit bulls to fight and it was a very touchy situation. They were not the highest caliber of people. Their dog pens were up on the edge of their property which was right next door to my backyard.

I was often concerned about one of their happy little pups getting loose as the dogs were mistreated, poorly fed, and beaten.

Without going into all the details lets just say one got loose and was in my yard. My neighbors were not home (or at least not answering the phone when we called) and animal control said they would be there in a few hours.



Regarding the unquoted portion of your post, I think we can all relate to doing something stupid and risky due to anger at some time or another and fortunatly we are lucky enough to be here posting reading (and above all, learning) after the fact.

Maybe these are some of your ommitted details in which you decided not to get into, but I wonder why in the world you didn't report this as soon as you discovered the "traning facility"?

I am a big dog person and I cannot stand these fucks that do that for leisure or a living, and there would be no hesitation on my part for that reason alone. I know that not everybody here and elsewhere shares my passion, but nevertheless the issue of safety remains. I would hate to imagine comming home and finding the EMS down the street because a dog that got loose mauled the little girl down the street to death, and I did nothing to stop it when I had the chance.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 12:35:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pulpsmack:

Originally Posted By wgjhsafT:
I have had one bad encounter with a dog, and needless to say I won.

My neighbors used to train pit bulls to fight and it was a very touchy situation. They were not the highest caliber of people. Their dog pens were up on the edge of their property which was right next door to my backyard.

I was often concerned about one of their happy little pups getting loose as the dogs were mistreated, poorly fed, and beaten.

Without going into all the details lets just say one got loose and was in my yard. My neighbors were not home (or at least not answering the phone when we called) and animal control said they would be there in a few hours.



Regarding the unquoted portion of your post, I think we can all relate to doing something stupid and risky due to anger at some time or another and fortunatly we are lucky enough to be here posting reading (and above all, learning) after the fact.

Maybe these are some of your ommitted details in which you decided not to get into, but I wonder why in the world you didn't report this as soon as you discovered the "traning facility"?

I am a big dog person and I cannot stand these fucks that do that for leisure or a living, and there would be no hesitation on my part for that reason alone. I know that not everybody here and elsewhere shares my passion, but nevertheless the issue of safety remains. I would hate to imagine comming home and finding the EMS down the street because a dog that got loose mauled the little girl down the street to death, and I did nothing to stop it when I had the chance.



The training facility, or detached two car garage, was reported by me several times to the local PD. There were other issues with these neighbors including late night parties, a molotov cocktail thrown through their front window, and marijuana plants growing in the woods.

These were not exactly friendly characters and only one of them seemed to have any decency about him. He was the original property owner who had bought the house through HUD. With him came relatives from the hood who were not so proud to be in a somewhat decent neighborhood with decent schools. The owner seemed intinidated by his own kin.

I couldn't figure out why the police didn't do anything. One time a guy shot one of the dogs after it was mortally wounded right in their backyard with a .22. I was very concerned for a long time but there were tough decisions to make.

-Report all their activity and risk retribution from them on my family.
-Report the worst of their activities and hope they didn't figure it out.

These guys activily displayed SKS rifles and AKs any chance they could. They were not hiding their illegal activites from me and figured I was too scared to do anything.

Most of my other neighbors at the time were elderly and afraid to say anything. I was the most vocal about them but had little support from the elderly folks who figured they might be killed in their sleep by them. The police were regulars there because of my phone calls and eventually I got sick of calling them because nothing really happened. Maybe someone got arrested, but then they would be back.

Eventually I knew something was going on when a guy from the FBI came to my house one day asking questions. I answered some, but didn't go into to much detail. I told them to talk to my local PD as I was sure there was a list a mile long on them.

Then, one peaceful Spring Saturday morning I was outside early when I saw two police officers approaching their house through my backyard. They had body armor, a benelli shotgun, and a MP5. They told me to go inside and I did. They raided the house, arrested everyone and it was left vacant for months after that. Unfortunately they left behind the dogs which I attempted to feed until someone (I guess a relative) showed up with a 24' UHaul van and threw the dogs (15 of them), portable pens, and other items into it and took off never to be seen again.

New neighbor is a decent guy; single father with two kids just trying to make it like the rest of us. He even has an AR and doesn't flaunt it to try to scare the neighbors.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 4:22:13 PM EDT
I feel very sorry for those dogs mentioned, hopefully the relative that took them is an upstanding person and either cared for them appropriately or surrender them to the animal control.

But back to the topic at hand, pepper spray would be the way I would handle a dog.





Link Posted: 3/29/2006 5:21:32 PM EDT

Dobermans, for instance, are so agile they can literally change direction in midair.


Bullshit, as has been pointed out. I guess if one had wings it could fly around after you?
Dogs can turn around and twist etc in flight just like a cat. My dog can turn and grab at something if he didn't time the launch just right. But he's not changing the flight path, just swinging his head around.




Originally Posted By triburst1:
OC/pepper spray is very effective on dogs.



Having been a road cyclist for the better part of 2 decades I can say with confidence pepper spray is the BEST for dogs. No permanent damage to the poor beast and highly effective, cheap, easy to carry deploy etc... I have beaten so many dogs with a variety of objects, all in self defense of course, I still feel horrible just thinking about it. Its the owner that deserves a good ass kicking, the dog is just doing its job chasing some funny looking biker dude out of its territory.

Also, a lot of 'mean' dogs or chasers I have met know to take off if you start throwing stuff. If not, it only takes one good hit to teach them to run like hell when someone starts throwing. I have met dogs that took off when I stooped to pick up a rock, thats all it took.
Link Posted: 3/29/2006 6:19:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By wgjhsafT:
The training facility, or detached two car garage, was reported by me several times to the local PD.



I had a feeling you were ommiting some relevant details, hence the benefit of the doubt. Glad they're gone. I had an ethnically diverse apartment that went from families to gangsta's paradise within a year (because occupancy was below 70% and the rental agents dropped their standards). I have done the mad and stupid a few times myself... irate knocking to get them to turn down the bass at 2am with a .45 jammed in the waistband, etc. We finally got the fuck out of Dodge when the lease went up. It's nice to hear for a change that the shit left your neighborhood instead of hearing you had to leave a (now) shit neighborhood.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 7:34:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/31/2006 7:35:36 AM EDT by ArJunaBug]

Originally Posted By yekimak:
I think the author was trying to emphasize the point that dogs are very agile, but it does sound cheesy to say that a dobie can change direction in the air.



I had to fire my 357 magnum revolver at a full grown mountain lion once. I'd swear he did a u-turn in mid air. I didn't fire at him directly, but just beside him. Next shot would have been at him had he not dissapeared.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 9:02:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ArJunaBug:

Originally Posted By yekimak:
I think the author was trying to emphasize the point that dogs are very agile, but it does sound cheesy to say that a dobie can change direction in the air.



I had to fire my 357 magnum revolver at a full grown mountain lion once. I'd swear he did a u-turn in mid air. I didn't fire at him directly, but just beside him. Next shot would have been at him had he not dissapeared.



I believe there are two concepts confused here. With respect to vector, no thing discussed can change direction (if it's going straight ahead it can't transfer the energy 90 degrees and bank left for ex)

However, animals can reposition themselves with respect to that vector. for example, a cat that is dropped on its back off a 12 story building. It cannot change the vector... it's going down. However, it can torque its body into twisting to land on its feet instead of its back or side (although landing on feet @ 12 stories doesn't help much). I believe this is what is being addressed.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 8:06:21 PM EDT
If you're in such a position to stick your finger up the dogs ass, are you really sure that a dog is attacking you?

I wouldn't take much, if anything, that guy says to heart. Cross reference anything you find and keep searching until you have all you need to know and more.
Link Posted: 4/1/2006 9:10:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BLY:
If you're in such a position to stick your finger up the dogs ass, are you really sure that a dog is attacking you?

I wouldn't take much, if anything, that guy says to heart. Cross reference anything you find and keep searching until you have all you need to know and more.




MMkay. So it's silly to kick for the soft body parts or to aim for area between and above the eyes? Or maybe it's silly to try to lift a dog if he has bitten you.

I'm definitely on the finger in his butt part, but there ARE things here that make sense.
Link Posted: 4/5/2006 4:02:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pulpsmack:

Originally Posted By vanilla_gorilla:
Here's some more from the same section, specifically regarding striking weapons on dogs


stick your finger up his rectum as a distractor




I hope all who read this can take something away from it that helps.




Check the dog's oil? This guy must have been paid by the word for his article



I had a buddy who did this once and the dog followed him home. They are still best of freinds
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 9:18:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/6/2006 9:20:26 PM EDT by pistolman1974]
I had to deal with a dog. I sell real estate and most of my customers are investors so its not uncommon for me to show vacant or otherwise uninhabitable property in the "hood" so needless to say there are alot of strays. Anyway, this particular day I was showing property and we had to go in through the back door because the front was borded up . As we turn the corner were met by a young german shepard; It barks I draw. My client was not in the line of fire and had his flashlight turned to the "beat you about the head position". I ask him if he sees a leash or something because i saw loose rope, cable wire etc. My client says no. the dog barks but doesn't show any other discernable sighns of pre-attack aggression..ie growling, bristling hair on its back, showing teeth etc. However it had no tags, collar, or anything showing that it belonged to someone. To make a long story short my client sees the owner next door......laughing at my 20 questions/alarm. I couldn't see the owner because I hadn't made it past the exterior wall of the house. He calls the dog and everything turns out OK . The owner never knew how close that dog was to being shot. THE OWNER WAS AN IDIOT!!


I say all this to say that if you TRULY believe a dog attack is eminent don't hesitate....fire!
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 10:31:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/6/2006 10:32:30 PM EDT by pulpsmack]

Originally Posted By pistolman1974

I say all this to say that if you TRULY believe a dog attack is eminent don't hesitate....fire!



Yes, officer.

Dog-->






Link Posted: 4/6/2006 11:03:50 PM EDT
I say just GIVE THE DAMN DOG THE BISCUIT!

and quit teasing him!



The only time I have fired upon a dog was when one was chasing my sister's horses around the field.
I got some practice time in with my .357
This was the same one that bit a wire cage with baby chicks inside and crushed one between the wire.
Link Posted: 4/7/2006 4:35:25 AM EDT
By sheer bad luck and circumstance, I have been attacked twice by a pit bull (2 different ones). I don't have a job where I encounter dogs and I don't even know anyone who owns a pit bull, and the attacks were in two different cities. Just plain bad luck.

First one I was bitten several times and was eventually thwarted by a (squirmish/pet lover warning) finger through the eyeball. Immediately the attack ceased and the dog whimpered away. I don't know why, but I never even considered to use my 9mm on it. It happened pretty quick and the most available weapon was my finger through its eyeball. If I were attacked by a person close up in a 'jumping' type of attack, I would probably opt for the finger through the eyeball just the same, at least until I had got a few feet in between the attacker and me.

The second time the dog came running at me and I had a can of mace and had just got the mace out by the time it reached me, I suffered only a bite to the leg and a little back spray off of the mace (worse part), but the dog was foaming and rolling around and tearing, completely harmless.

I recommend mace for everyone who carries period (for people, dogs, whatever). Best part is, no matter what the cause, you are never going to be charged with more than assault for using mace.

Brandon J.
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