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Posted: 3/7/2006 8:39:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/7/2006 8:39:57 AM EDT by zcu64]
You are walking in a parking lot after you've just come out of dinner from a relatively nice place (most people are dressed nicely, no jeans, that kind of place) and you see a man in a suit on the ground getting the crap beat out of him by a man wearing raggy clothes. Do you draw or don't draw?
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 8:53:17 AM EDT
I back up and make a phone call. I'll give the fuzz my name and get scarce and let them deal with it.
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 9:41:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
I back up and make a phone call. I'll give the fuzz my name and get scarce and let them deal with it.



+1 Don't draw your weapon unless you are sure of what you are seeing and that a life is at stake. Sig academy has a similar training scenario except it is a man and woman on the ground rolling around. Most heroes draw their weapons and order the mean, evil male off of the poor, helpless female. Of course they are a bit surprised when the woman draws a piece and starts shooting at them. It turns out that the woman was a jealous ex or something and was the instigator of the incident. Doh!
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 9:42:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
I back up and make a phone call. I'll give the fuzz my name and get scarce and let them deal with it.



To add to this, I would yell to the perp that the cops are on the way. Hopefully this would stop him from beating on the guy.
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 9:53:21 AM EDT
+1 call the police and let the guy know they are coming..
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 10:42:26 AM EDT
I know that in Louisiana, you can't defend the life of another with deadly force unless that person could legally do it themselves. This means that they must be in reasonable fear of either their life or severe bodily harm. That being said, you should never draw your weapon unless you intend to use it.

Now, if the perp has a weapon, and I mean any weapon(brass knuckles, bat, pipe, bottle etc), you can legally fire away, assuming that the supposed perp wasn't actually acting in self defense and got the upper hand in the fight just before you got there. The last part of the previous sentence is EXTREMELY important. In walking up to a fight in progress you probably won't know the entire story. You can only ASSume, and we know where that can lead.

My advise overall would be that unless you think that someone is going to die as a result of the fight, don't draw. Try shouting and telling them to break it up. If that doesn't work, call the police and let them handle it. But if you were to shout and EITHER one of them comes at you with a weapon, it's 2 in the chest and one in the head.

Short version: It depends on the situation, just like most things in life.
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 11:09:16 AM EDT
Change of scenario: you're on the ground having the crap beat out of you. A bystander has called the police and left quickly so as to not become involved. Others are watching from a safe distance but nobody has taken the initiative to bring the struggle to a halt. Nobody has shouted orders to cease fighting. Everybody is safe and will go home to their families with a good story.

Good luck! We all hope you make it but we can't take the risks associated with getting involved. We know you'll understand, if you live.
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 12:16:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/7/2006 12:17:05 PM EDT by ASU1911]
If you are in a shooting, especially outside of your home, you will almost certainly spend the night in jail. If you acted in an illegal fashion, you may spend the rest of your life in jail.

When the police arrive, everything on your person will be confiscated. They may search your vehicle. They will attempt to find guilt. They will assume that everyone at the scene may be guilty of something.

You may or may not be charged with a crime. Even the case is clear cut, you may be facing hostile prosecution. If you cannot afford the 200,000 dollars that it takes to get off a murder charge, you will be assigned a lawyer who squeaked through law school. You will be considered lucky if he is awake and sober through the trial.

The police report will be rife with errors. If you are lucky, it will still support you. If you are not, or if you pissed the cops off, it will be full of errors or lies ("misunderstandings and ommissions") that will have to be dealt with before you can begin talking about a plea bargain.

You will not only be charged with murder or assault. They will add unlawful discharge and anything else they can think of, most of which will be to get you to plea bargain.

Assuming that you were right to enter the situation and fire a shot, and the police and prosecution support you, you will still have to deal with the recriminations of your friends and family. Some people will become hard to reach. Some of your friends will become distant and wary. Expect lectures on why guns are evila nd how much trouble they cause.

Do not expect anyone else who was there to support you. They may not know what happened. For all you know, the "victim" will end up supporting the man you just shot. That isn't good for you, my friend.

I may never have faced this dilemma, but I have a few friends that have, and their stories have been enlightening to say the least.

It is not worth this trouble for me to become involved in a situation that has not invloved me already. Your mileage may vary.
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 12:20:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/7/2006 12:23:45 PM EDT by B-O-A-T-S]

Originally Posted By hamishdhu:
Change of scenario: you're on the ground having the crap beat out of you. A bystander has called the police and left quickly so as to not become involved. Others are watching from a safe distance but nobody has taken the initiative to bring the struggle to a halt. Nobody has shouted orders to cease fighting. Everybody is safe and will go home to their families with a good story.

Good luck! We all hope you make it but we can't take the risks associated with getting involved. We know you'll understand, if you live.



...
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 12:31:05 PM EDT
Come on guys, all you have for self defense is a Gun????

Layers of protection, pull out my pepper spray, spray them down, of course the gun, knife, etc. is ready to be pulled at all times.
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 12:36:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NavajoGunOwner:
Come on guys, all you have for self defense is a Gun????

Layers of protection, pull out my pepper spray, spray them down, of course the gun, knife, etc. is ready to be pulled at all times.



Yeah. And they pull a gun and you kill them... a more circuitous route to the same end as before.

I think I'll go back and have desert and watch the cops work.
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 1:06:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By hamishdhu:
Change of scenario: you're on the ground having the crap beat out of you. A bystander has called the police and left quickly so as to not become involved. Others are watching from a safe distance but nobody has taken the initiative to bring the struggle to a halt. Nobody has shouted orders to cease fighting. Everybody is safe and will go home to their families with a good story.

Good luck! We all hope you make it but we can't take the risks associated with getting involved. We know you'll understand, if you live.



Sounds about right. I don't rely on or expect anybody else to help me except my friends and my family. My sister is the only family member that I would expect to help me effectively. (Tough girl. Makes me proud as hell.) It sucks, but I don't get involved and I really don't expect anyone to do any different.
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 1:12:16 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 1:16:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/7/2006 1:21:38 PM EDT by wildearp]

Originally Posted By zcu64:
You are walking in a parking lot after you've just come out of dinner from a relatively nice place (most people are dressed nicely, no jeans, that kind of place) and you see a man in a suit on the ground getting the crap beat out of him by a man wearing raggy clothes. Do you draw or don't draw?



Arizona revised statutes say "you can shoot to prevent certain crimes" You are authorized to use deadly physical force if you reasonably believe it is immediately necessary to prevent someone from committing:

(there are 10 items)
4. Manslaughter
10. Aggravated assault

There are many unknowns to what you posted. Discretion is advised.

Exactly what the word reasonably and immediately mean are what a jury decides.

The most important thing is what you do AFTER something like this that may occur, regardless of the outcome. It is a very important part of training, along with what your significant other does while an incident occurs, and after said incident. Mindset is having run through as many possible scenarios as possible, prior to any occurance.

Take a class from a qualified personal defense instructor, sooner than later.
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 2:28:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By wildearp:

Originally Posted By zcu64:
You are walking in a parking lot after you've just come out of dinner from a relatively nice place (most people are dressed nicely, no jeans, that kind of place) and you see a man in a suit on the ground getting the crap beat out of him by a man wearing raggy clothes. Do you draw or don't draw?



Arizona revised statutes say "you can shoot to prevent certain crimes" You are authorized to use deadly physical force if you reasonably believe it is immediately necessary to prevent someone from committing:

(there are 10 items)
4. Manslaughter
10. Aggravated assault

There are many unknowns to what you posted. Discretion is advised.

Exactly what the word reasonably and immediately means are what a jury decidesis what a District Attourney, then possibly a jury decides.

The most important thing is what you do AFTER something like this that may occur, regardless of the outcome. It is a very important part of training, along with what your significant other does while an incident occurs, and after said incident. Mindset is having run through as many possible scenarios as possible, prior to any occurance.

Take a class from a qualified personal defense instructor, sooner than later.


I don't want to be picky, but I don't want anyone thinking that every shooting automatically goes straight to trial.
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 2:30:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ASU1911:
If you are in a shooting, especially outside of your home, you will almost certainly spend the night in jail. If you acted in an illegal fashion, you may spend the rest of your life in jail.

When the police arrive, everything on your person will be confiscated. They may search your vehicle. They will attempt to find guilt. They will assume that everyone at the scene may be guilty of something.

You may or may not be charged with a crime. Even the case is clear cut, you may be facing hostile prosecution. If you cannot afford the 200,000 dollars that it takes to get off a murder charge, you will be assigned a lawyer who squeaked through law school. You will be considered lucky if he is awake and sober through the trial.

The police report will be rife with errors. If you are lucky, it will still support you. If you are not, or if you pissed the cops off, it will be full of errors or lies ("misunderstandings and ommissions") that will have to be dealt with before you can begin talking about a plea bargain.

You will not only be charged with murder or assault. They will add unlawful discharge and anything else they can think of, most of which will be to get you to plea bargain.

Assuming that you were right to enter the situation and fire a shot, and the police and prosecution support you, you will still have to deal with the recriminations of your friends and family. Some people will become hard to reach. Some of your friends will become distant and wary. Expect lectures on why guns are evila nd how much trouble they cause.

Do not expect anyone else who was there to support you. They may not know what happened. For all you know, the "victim" will end up supporting the man you just shot. That isn't good for you, my friend.

I may never have faced this dilemma, but I have a few friends that have, and their stories have been enlightening to say the least.

It is not worth this trouble for me to become involved in a situation that has not invloved me already. Your mileage may vary.


So what you are basically saying is that you would stand there and watch someone get executed rather than intervening?
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 2:44:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/7/2006 2:47:18 PM EDT by ORinTX]

Originally Posted By hamishdhu:
Change of scenario: you're on the ground having the crap beat out of you. A bystander has called the police and left quickly so as to not become involved. Others are watching from a safe distance but nobody has taken the initiative to bring the struggle to a halt. Nobody has shouted orders to cease fighting. Everybody is safe and will go home to their families with a good story.

Good luck! We all hope you make it but we can't take the risks associated with getting involved. We know you'll understand, if you live.



Fine. I am responsible for my own personal protection. That's why I carry. I don't expect anybody else, be they CCW holders or cops, to be there to save my ass when someone tries to kill me, assuming they are actually trying to kill me. That's my job. If I'm not good at it it's nobody's fault but mine.

Don't put your ass on the line unless you KNOW what's happening IMO. If you see an incident start to finish, fine.

That being said, you could try to help this man with a means other than your CCW piece. Just because you're packing doesn't mean it's the only means of force you have. Try to pull the guy off of his victim, and if things escalate to the point where a weapon is displayed, then it's time to shoot.
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 2:50:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Brians_45:
So what you are basically saying is that you would stand there and watch someone get executed rather than intervening?



Yes.
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 2:53:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ASU1911:

Originally Posted By Brians_45:
So what you are basically saying is that you would stand there and watch someone get executed rather than intervening?



Yes.



It's too bad that things are that way, but that's how our society has become. It sounds callous, but we simply do not have reasonable laws regarding use of force in this country. It's insane that you have to even think twice about shooting someone over a violent encounter, but you do. Just a few generations ago things were quite different.
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 3:02:09 PM EDT
What I was thinking on this was that the guy in raggy clothes could possibly be an under cover cop working a drug bust that has gone bad. The cop (raggy clothes) is on top of the drug dealer who is fighting him and the cop has gotten the better hand in the fight. I guess I should have said that the two individuals were fighting, not one getting the crap kicked out of himself. I was thinking that if this scenerio were the case there is a possibility that the cop's partner comes running around the corner and see's you the CCW holder drawing a gun on his parter and now he shoots you. This was presented to me in a CCW class and I wanted to see how others would act in this situation. Good responses and a lot of good info for thought
Link Posted: 3/8/2006 11:28:02 AM EDT
1) call cops
2) yell at them, tell them to stop, etc
3) wait for cops
4) if either one tries to attack you, then you can draw down.

That's what I would be thinking, anyway.
Link Posted: 3/8/2006 4:45:11 PM EDT
True story: My wife (she was just my girlfriend then) found a friend on the bottom end of a serious beating. She ripped the downspout off of a nearby garage and managed to stop the attacker. A neighbor called the police who arrived just as the attacker tried to run away. Her barely recognizable friend spent a weak in the hospital. She became the main witness in the subsequent trial. One other "witness described to the police that she had ripped the bumper off a nearby car and went to the aid of her friend. In this case there was no doubt about who was the villain.
Link Posted: 3/8/2006 5:42:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ASU1911:
If you are in a shooting, especially outside of your home, you will almost certainly spend the night in jail. If you acted in an illegal fashion, you may spend the rest of your life in jail.



How do you figure you will spend time in jail??? Do you live in a Nazi anti-gun community where you shouldn't be carrying anyways??

Sorry, but that first line is complete BS. I cannot recall a single case where a person lawfully used there weapon and ever went to jail. In fact, even where they may have crossed the line (grey area), they didn't go to jail. I have been around numerous ones and they usually received a pat on the back and asked if they needed anything.

If it was blatantly unlawful, then sure, but to lump a good firearm usage into the going to jail part is ridiculous.

As for the rest of your life in jail, I seriously doubt that too.....Not sure what state you reside in, but a criminally minded murderer rarely gets a life sentence.
Link Posted: 3/8/2006 6:29:07 PM EDT
RDP,

Are you a cop?
Link Posted: 3/8/2006 6:42:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By RDP:

Originally Posted By ASU1911:
If you are in a shooting, especially outside of your home, you will almost certainly spend the night in jail. If you acted in an illegal fashion, you may spend the rest of your life in jail.



How do you figure you will spend time in jail??? Do you live in a Nazi anti-gun community where you shouldn't be carrying anyways??

Sorry, but that first line is complete BS. I cannot recall a single case where a person lawfully used there weapon and ever went to jail. In fact, even where they may have crossed the line (grey area), they didn't go to jail. I have been around numerous ones and they usually received a pat on the back and asked if they needed anything.

If it was blatantly unlawful, then sure, but to lump a good firearm usage into the going to jail part is ridiculous.

As for the rest of your life in jail, I seriously doubt that too.....Not sure what state you reside in, but a criminally minded murderer rarely gets a life sentence.



RDP, ASU1911 knows what a holding cell feels like.......he don't want to go back!
Link Posted: 3/8/2006 7:02:58 PM EDT
1. call 911 and report situation
2. TAKE COVER
3. draw down
4. inform the parties that the popo is on the way and that they should stop
5. be aware of your surroundings
Link Posted: 3/8/2006 7:07:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/8/2006 7:07:50 PM EDT by zcu64]

Originally Posted By NotoriousSEG:
1. call 911 and report situation
2. TAKE COVER
3. draw down
4. inform the parties that the popo is on the way and that they should stop
5. be aware of your surroundings




I would not draw down before letting them know the cops were on the way or even after letting them know. In colorado, drawing your weapon is considered using deadly force whether you pull the trigger or not.
Link Posted: 3/8/2006 7:13:44 PM EDT
in west virginia drawing your weapon is just saturday night
Link Posted: 3/8/2006 7:39:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By RDP:

Originally Posted By ASU1911:
If you are in a shooting, especially outside of your home, you will almost certainly spend the night in jail. If you acted in an illegal fashion, you may spend the rest of your life in jail.



As for the rest of your life in jail, I seriously doubt that too.....Not sure what state you reside in, but a criminally minded murderer rarely gets a life sentence.



Friend of mine shot and wounded a robber who tried to hold him up at work. The DA tried to get him on attempted murder. It went away before trial.

A friends cousin was in a clean shoot. Took his chances with a public defender. Spent 3 years in prison before he pointed out to the appelate court that police testimony and the police report were opposite one another.

I'm not speaking about the criminal minded. I'm speaking about law abiding citizens. The latter was in Houston, BTW.
Link Posted: 3/8/2006 7:53:06 PM EDT
In GA, you can't (legally) carry in a restaurant as described because they most likely serve alcohol for consumption on the premises.

1. Call the Popo
2. Tell 'em the cops are on the way
3. Go back into the restaurant for dessert and a second cup of coffee
Link Posted: 3/8/2006 8:16:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ASU1911:

Friend of mine shot and wounded a robber who tried to hold him up at work. The DA tried to get him on attempted murder. It went away before trial.

A friends cousin was in a clean shoot. Took his chances with a public defender. Spent 3 years in prison before he pointed out to the appelate court that police testimony and the police report were opposite one another.

I'm not speaking about the criminal minded. I'm speaking about law abiding citizens. The latter was in Houston, BTW.



I'd really like to know the difference between situations where the good guy has an experience like you describe, and where they get a pat on the back and a no bill.
Link Posted: 3/8/2006 8:17:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ORinTX:
RDP,

Are you a cop?



Yep.......so I have seen good people shoot at, shoot, and kill plenty of bad guys.

Unfortunately, I have seen more victims that could have saved their own life, prevented serious injury, or put an end to a bad guy's rampage if they were armed.

It amazes me at what some Nazi jurisdictions will go through to try and harm gun owners.

One incident comes to mind where a guy, in his car with his family, had a road rage incident with another male. The other guy comes out with a baseball bat and tries to start a fight. Well, it wasn't going anywhere as the guy in the car was reaching for a gun. By the time he had the gun, the other guy was running back to his truck. The guy popped off a couple of rounds and left. Some assinine supv. felt the guy should be arrested. He was........the public outcry was so horrific, the DA dismissed everything the next day and said it was within the law. Guess more of a gun friendly state than where some of the other people live on here.....
Link Posted: 3/8/2006 8:21:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ASU1911:
A friends cousin was in a clean shoot. Took his chances with a public defender. Spent 3 years in prison before he pointed out to the appelate court that police testimony and the police report were opposite one another.



I know all the stories are second or third hand, but even a law school student would have picked up on this during the trial. Shoot, usually the defendant is jumping up and down just to make sure the attorney caught it.

Even though a report differs, that alone will not cause a case to be thrown out. Reports can occur in different stages which allows for further evidence, intervies, and investigations to come to different conclusions.
Link Posted: 3/8/2006 11:17:51 PM EDT

If you are in a shooting, especially outside of your home, you will almost certainly spend the night in jail. If you acted in an illegal fashion, you may spend the rest of your life in jail.


Allow me to relate to you one incident that contradicts your point. In December 2002, a gentleman was out driving his SUV, here in Nashville. He stopped at a convienience store and went in for something. He climbed into his truck and just as he was getting ready to start it, a young male in the backseat told him to drive away quickly. The driver retrieved his handgun from under his seat, exited the vehicle, pointed the handgun at the person in the backseat and ordered him to exit the vehicle. The perp refused to do so and was subsequently ordered to exit again. The perp reached down, as if to grab something off of the floor. The driver feared that the suspect was reaching for a weapon and was in fear for his life. The driver, who possessed a handgun carry permit, fired, striking the suspect and killing him instantly.

When the police arrived, they questioned the driver about why he fired. The driver stated that the suspect went to reach for something and he thought he was going to kill him. The police did not find a gun inside the vehicle and informed the driver of this. The driver stated that at the moment he fired, he had no way of knowing that, but because the suspect had attempted to carjack and kidnap him, refused to exit the vehicle when faced with the business end of a .44 Magnum revolver, and made threatening motions, he (the driver) was in absolute fear for his life.

The driver was not charged and was, in fact, cleared and released from the crime scene within one hour of the shooting. He did not spend a night in jail. He slept in his own bed. He did not have to face a Grand Jury or a trial by his peers. He was in the right and the cops knew it.

BTW, the driver took his carry class from the instructor I'm working with now.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 12:11:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By hamishdhu:
Change of scenario: you're on the ground having the crap beat out of you. A bystander has called the police and left quickly so as to not become involved. Others are watching from a safe distance but nobody has taken the initiative to bring the struggle to a halt. Nobody has shouted orders to cease fighting. Everybody is safe and will go home to their families with a good story.

Good luck! We all hope you make it but we can't take the risks associated with getting involved. We know you'll understand, if you live.



Change of scenario:

you get jumped on the street by a robber (druggie, etc) and are in a brawl, you are unarmed after just leaving an alcohol serving establishement, in the fight you get on top and are trying to restrain/subdue the guy who was beating on you. A CCW holder rounds the corner, sees you "beating the crap out of this guy", draws his gun and shoots you.
Feel better now? Happy that someone "got involved"?

Here's my take...observe the situation, call the cops if any doubts AND LET THE FIGHTERS KNOW COPS WERE CALLED, if it's a cop on top, he's most likely not going to execute the guy on the ground. If there is a weapon involved...it's a judgement call on you if you shoot and the weapon is not directed at you. It's not all "clean and simple" as watching a guy pull a weapon on an employee (identified by clothing) in a store, gas station, etc. Two guys in the street can be anything or anybody.

No Expert
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 10:48:06 AM EDT
with the circumstances you have outlined, no life threat against yourself, no weapon visable, you do not know them........NEVER you have just put yourself in jail. as a weapons carrier you are to be an unwilling participant...which means you are not aware of any threat. if you intervine with a gun, you are now willing to engage, and in a situation you do not know. you do not know who is the victim, if you shoot the wrong person you will be tried and convicted.
CCW trainer
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 9:14:08 AM EDT
Intervention (shouting at them, telling them police are on the way, verbally trying to separate them) and intervention with your firearm are 2 very different things are they not? That being said, not every random altercation should be dealt with with your gun. Can't remember where it's from but there's a saying "if your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail." Beyond that though it's just plain sad how so many people won't even call the police let alone stop to help someone in serious trouble because they don't have the courage to stand up for what's right or dont want to get "involved."

zcu64, to answer your question my opinion is "don't shoot" but that doesn't mean "don't help."
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 10:20:11 AM EDT
The first story I related is first hand. It can go wither way, but many jurisdictions are incredibly abusive to gun owners. Even in the good ones you have some splaining to do.
Link Posted: 3/17/2006 5:56:45 PM EDT
That's why I never eat at places that have dress codes. Too many years of not being allowed because of leather coats or T-shirts. Now it's fashionable, but I have flash backs whenever I see the dress code signs.
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 6:55:16 AM EDT
Well, i'd like to know what happens if the raggedy man is an undercover police officer fighting a criminal who is being uncooperative, i'm not talking kicking his ass but the two of them rollin around and such. you draw down on him, he's gonna shoot you, or he's gonna be real pissed cuz the perp will probably get away and the cops are gonna have a field day with you in court...
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 7:49:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By zcu64:
You are walking in a parking lot after you've just come out of dinner from a relatively nice place (most people are dressed nicely, no jeans, that kind of place) and you see a man in a suit on the ground getting the crap beat out of him by a man wearing raggy clothes. Do you draw or don't draw?



If you are of a mind to help, I wouldn't start with a gun unless the suspect had a dangerous weapon showing (baseball bat, pipe, knife etc.). This is where those guys who carry pepper spray, or know self defense moves, might do well. However, if you enter the fight, you might end up getting beat on too, and then have to draw. You must know your state's laws on this matter.

Such a situation can be well resolved without a gun if you've got some fighting savvy. Is it a risk? Yes. But you might have to take it. A hammer fist to the ear. Grab the face from behind with a finger hooked under the nose and pull back. He'll come.

And it could all backfire on you. The guy in the suit might have done something egregious to the attacker at an earlier time. You can't know, so you do your best and hope for the best. But the gun should only come out to defend your life, or that of one you know to be 100% innocent and right as rain.

It's even possible that such a scenario is a set up to suck you in, in order to turn on you.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 8:49:11 AM EDT
ALERT THE INTERNET! CALL THE ECUADORIAN NAVY!!!

Link Posted: 3/25/2006 11:19:07 AM EDT
Yep first Call 911 verbally yell at them let them know the LEO’S are on the way. Do your best to attract attention to you and the situation. Keep watch and attempt to determine what’s going on and why keep your gun holstered unless you see one of them has a weapon and is about to use it. If one of them brings out a weapon or picks one up at that point draw and present. Yell at them to stop and drop it. But be noisy and yell allot attract attention to you and the situation. It would be wise to yell things like I am armed but do not wish to do you harm but you must stop. Please stop now. Make it known that you are an unwilling participant just doing the right thing. The last thing you want a witness to say on the stand is that you shouted I will kill you or testify that you were out to do harm. Chances are if one of them is a cop by this point he/she will say so. If there is a fellow LEO around he would not be waiting in the wings he will be there helping out his/her partner.

Whiteness can and will help you in a legal situation if you let everyone know in that situation and at that moment that your intent is not to harm anyone but to protect a victim. Be smart and in control of yourself and use common sense.

But no matter what you can’t and never will be able to avoid possible legal ramifications
In a situation like this because you do not fully know all the circumstances until afterwards. However you can display your proper intent at the time and that will be your best defense in a court of law should it come to that.

Very few people die from a fist fight or wrestling match. So what you decide to do in those seconds before you take any or no action is a crap shoot. Therefore you should not be judged upon your decision. However you should at the very least get a call into 911.

Link Posted: 3/25/2006 11:34:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/25/2006 11:40:21 AM EDT by guardian855]

Originally Posted By hamishdhu:
Change of scenario: you're on the ground having the crap beat out of you. A bystander has called the police and left quickly so as to not become involved. Others are watching from a safe distance but nobody has taken the initiative to bring the struggle to a halt. Nobody has shouted orders to cease fighting. Everybody is safe and will go home to their families with a good story.

Good luck! We all hope you make it but we can't take the risks associated with getting involved. We know you'll understand, if you live.



Change of scenario, you pull your piece and yell at them to stop. The guy who looks like a bum looks up at you, and draws a gun. You fire and the bum falls to the ground. As he hits the ground, his police badge falls out of his pocket and hits the ground. Turns out he's an undercover cop trying to make an arrest, and saw you with a weapon but didn't understand what you were yelling. The cop chased two guys who split up, and was struggling with one of them, and thought you were the other one coming back to help his buddy with a gun. What do you think will happen to you when the cops backup arrive and see that you shot the cop while he was trying to arrest someone?

Unless your life is in danger, don't jump in the middle of it, you don't know the whole story....
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 11:35:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Brians_45:

Originally Posted By ASU1911:
If you are in a shooting, especially outside of your home, you will almost certainly spend the night in jail. If you acted in an illegal fashion, you may spend the rest of your life in jail.

When the police arrive, everything on your person will be confiscated. They may search your vehicle. They will attempt to find guilt. They will assume that everyone at the scene may be guilty of something.

You may or may not be charged with a crime. Even the case is clear cut, you may be facing hostile prosecution. If you cannot afford the 200,000 dollars that it takes to get off a murder charge, you will be assigned a lawyer who squeaked through law school. You will be considered lucky if he is awake and sober through the trial.

The police report will be rife with errors. If you are lucky, it will still support you. If you are not, or if you pissed the cops off, it will be full of errors or lies ("misunderstandings and ommissions") that will have to be dealt with before you can begin talking about a plea bargain.

You will not only be charged with murder or assault. They will add unlawful discharge and anything else they can think of, most of which will be to get you to plea bargain.

Assuming that you were right to enter the situation and fire a shot, and the police and prosecution support you, you will still have to deal with the recriminations of your friends and family. Some people will become hard to reach. Some of your friends will become distant and wary. Expect lectures on why guns are evila nd how much trouble they cause.

Do not expect anyone else who was there to support you. They may not know what happened. For all you know, the "victim" will end up supporting the man you just shot. That isn't good for you, my friend.

I may never have faced this dilemma, but I have a few friends that have, and their stories have been enlightening to say the least.

It is not worth this trouble for me to become involved in a situation that has not invloved me already. Your mileage may vary.


So what you are basically saying is that you would stand there and watch someone get executed rather than intervening?



Pretty much, yes
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 11:36:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ORinTX:

Originally Posted By ASU1911:

Originally Posted By Brians_45:
So what you are basically saying is that you would stand there and watch someone get executed rather than intervening?



Yes.



It's too bad that things are that way, but that's how our society has become. It sounds callous, but we simply do not have reasonable laws regarding use of force in this country. It's insane that you have to even think twice about shooting someone over a violent encounter, but you do. Just a few generations ago things were quite different.



In that scenario, who do you shoot? Do you know what is happeneing? Choose wisely, your liberty is at stake....
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 5:09:00 PM EDT
What you have to decide is whether or not YOU THINK the person being beaten is in danger of death or serious bodily injury.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 6:41:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/25/2006 6:43:33 PM EDT by Rollyman]

Originally Posted By 1000yds:
What you have to decide is whether or not YOU THINK the person being beaten is in danger of death or serious bodily injury.



Yep that is the point here.
But what we all need to recognize is this. We can come up with different scenarios to back up our individual points.
The original poster gave the scenario and asked would you shoot or not. Get involved or not. Your answer should be strictly based on just that. In real life you will have to choose on what you see then react and deal with the aftermath of your decision. Lets face it you will not have time to cover the required thought processes and evaluate completely.

Lets not smear the area with the what ifs here. But the truth is if you commit and come to the aid of a stranger and an unknown situation then you need to understand that you are placing yourself in a situation that will have major possible ramifications. Including your own possible death or serious injury, criminal charges and jail or prison time, and then civil suite.

I gave my couch interpretation of what I would do if I encountered the scenario in my earlier post.
I think this would cover to the best one could do. If other people, LEOS, or Bad Guys enter the scenario after you commit then you need to do what the situation required at that time.

If you kill the BUM/LEO and the real bad guy survives are you now the bad guy? Not in my opinion. If the LEO was the bum and pulled a weapon I would think he would also be stating the fact he was a cop.

If you happen to get shot by the LEO’S partner well that is what can happen and why this discussion can help us all decide before we get into a possible gun fight.
I would hope that the second LEO who enters the situation would identify himself before he shoots. I would think and hope that the undercover LEO’S would have some training on this particular situation. Maybe this is nothing more but my wishful thinking.

I do know that if you get into a gun fight there are no magic rules that can get you out of trouble. Legitimate shooting or not. Even if you are justified by a court of law on your actions you can and will be held accountable in civil court and most likely loose weather the shooting was justified or not that’s the real world.

So as I stated in my earlier post, Call 911, attract as much attention to yourself in a beneficial way meaning; Being in/on the defensive side of the situation not the aggressor. Do not draw your weapon until it is at the point of no return. Meaning you see one of the people in the altercation get or draw a weapon. Do not draw your weapon on a fist fight or wrestling match.
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