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Posted: 3/1/2006 11:24:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/1/2006 11:26:02 AM EDT by topgunpilot20]
Looking for ideas on what the GF and I can practice at the range. After a post on glocktalk about a member using his pistol defensively, I decided that failure drills were a good idea. I started my GF on them at 3 yards--I figured this is the distance she would most likely have to shoot defensively. She also has a lot of fun practicing failure drills.

From 5 yards out, I have her practice controlled pairs since she can't make reliable head shots from that distance under pressure (she can do it easily with slow fire though). I figured two to the chest would probably stop a BG before he could make the 5 yards to her. If not, he'd be within 3 yards by the time she shot to the head.

Any other ideas? What drills can make a shooter more accurate under pressure--my GF shoots very accurately during slow fire, but sucks at any attempt to be faster.

ETA: I posted this under Carry Issues, because I am asking about drills related to defense while carrying.
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 11:31:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/1/2006 11:40:52 AM EDT by ORinTX]
Drawing from holster.

Reloading drills.

Firing while moving towards cover or backpedaling.

One handed shooting!

Turn and run like a bitch drills.
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 12:06:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/1/2006 12:07:11 PM EDT by photoman]
Couple questions

So either of you have any formal training besides a CCW class if you had to take one(former military don't count in that BTW, they don't teach CCW)

If not, look for a good defensive pistol/fighting pistol class to take, and take it together.
Never fire only one round, you don't want to get into that habit, pistols are already bad enough when it comes to being fight stoppers. Get used to shooting 2-3 rounds at a time. The don't have to be fast, just make sure they are quality hits, because only hits count.


*Remember slow is smooth smooth is fast.* The more you do it the more it becomes reflex basicly.

Beyond that stuff

Work on the draw, besure to use a cover garment. Don't worry about speed that will come as you get used to the motions, the more you practice it the faster you will eventualy become.

It may seem simple but run a lot of draw and fire 2 rounds.

Once thats down pretty well and yer good and comfortable with it, work on adding a side step to the draw. As in step to the left/right while drawing. This gets you used to getting off the line that the "attacker" would be taking at you also your now forcing them to react to you. It can gain you that valuable second to two that you need. Practice it to the left and the right. The last thing you want to do is just stand there. Once you get comfortable with that one step, add a second and third step. And again go slow don't worry about doing it fast, that will come

You already mentioned failure drills, practice every type of failure drill, not just the old two to the chest one to the head, becasue the head may not be a viable target at the time. As far as the head shots stuff goes at 5 yards, she should be able to do it. Perhaps yer adding strees to soon. First get her used to going for that head shot, also have her work taking that shot low to the pelvic area(I know dsopme guys will dis agreew ith that but if you don't have a head shot and two in the chest didn't stop them ya got to do something and hell it might be the only open shot to take becuase the head might not be available to shoot at.) Also try having her work on shooting smaller targets from that distance like some 3-4 inch circles. That might help too.

Practice reloads, both from slide lock and tac relaods.
Work malfunction clearance drills. Put dummy rounds in mags when you practice(load each others mags if yer together so you so you don't know when they will come up)

Something that Sully drills into us at defensive edge classes.
Fire-Self explanitory
Access- Check the "BG" make sure they are down and out of the fight and pose no threat. This helps break any tunnel vision etc.
Scan- Check yer 6 look all around you, all 360 degrees.
Tactical reload- You don't know if that BG you just had to smoke had buddies, get a fresh mag in the gun just in case, the last thing you want to have happen is to have to shoot it out again and have a weapon that may only have 1 round left in the mag.

Again this is stuff you need to do everytime that you practice/train. Even if people give you wierd looks and shit like that(and trust me some people do) because this is stuff you need to do automaticly if you get stuck in a shooting situation for real.

Get used to shooting from non standard and just plain wierd and unomfortable positions, you never know when the only real cover you have is going to put you in some wierd ass position that you'll have to shoot from.


Also for working on accurecy I like targets that have shapes on them, circles, triangles and squares. I also like them when working on the basics(don't forget those you can never practice them enough) And when soing things like working on my draw, or whenever working on something new.

Also practice all the drills you practice at close medium and long range. 5 yards is only 15 feet. Thats actually not a good distance and anyone with a knife/pipe will have it in you/accross yer head before you can even clear leather. My standard distances for working drills are 3/5/7/15 and 25. I skip 20 and 10 because well I just do.

Thats about all I got for ya right now. I'm sure I can come up with more but by the time I post this I'm figureing others have probably covered that stuff. Got any questions feel free to shoot me an IM.
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 12:21:23 PM EDT
good stuff photoman. keep it coming.

i have basically just worked on reloads, drawing from my concealed carry mode - sweep the garment back, etc.

i need to look closer at what you posted - shooting from odd positions, while moving back, to side.

i do some failure drills - need to do some more of course.
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 12:38:06 PM EDT
Thank you for your advice. I shoot IPSC, steel challenge, and 3-gun matches (no IDPA around here), so I practice draws and reloads a lot anyway. My GF has started shooting matches with me also. I know speed will come for her eventually, but I'm wondering if there is anything that could accelerate the process.

I would very much like to attend some formal training, but I'm still in college and can't afford it right now(and when I can, I can't afford the ammo I would use).
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 4:03:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/1/2006 4:15:04 PM EDT by Face_N_The_Crowd]

Originally Posted By topgunpilot20:
Thank you for your advice. I shoot IPSC,...... My GF has started shooting matches with me.....I'm wondering if there is anything that could accelerate the process.



As an IPSC shooter you KNOW that speed on a COF is largely related to two things - presence of mind and gun handling. Transfer that to the street - situational awareness and gun handling.

Sounds goofy as hell - and I would advise going easy at first so she doesn't think you are a freak - but work with her on situational awareness. Preach "See the problem before it happens".

As an excercise / example: When you go thru the drive through at Miky D's - let her drive, are the windows down?, are the doors locked?, is the car in gear?, is there space between cars to exit the drive thru in the event of an issue?, does she keep the music up?, does she scan the area and continue to watch her mirrors? When she leaves - does she drive in the right lane or the left lane of a multi lane (same direction) street [you should be in the right BTW].Get her to understand that it takes the average person .25 seconds to react to anything. Get her to understand that even under the best conditions, drawing from cover and firing a single round means 1.3 seconds. Show her some of your split times (presumably in the teen's) and explain - thats all it takes. Get her to realize the importance of a mere second.

Gun handling - not sure about you but I do a lot of dry fire practice - I call it 3 (or more) hat . I place a few ball caps around the room and practice just like I would at the range. Everything from an El Pres drill (complete with reloads - full mag of dummies for the mag change, paritial mag with dummies to start with) all the way to walking / running. I also do this with an AR and an SG.

Clearing a room - if you know how - practice working a room - practice being quiet, practice with a flashlight, practice working a hallway with multiple rooms off the hallway. Practice clearing stairs both going up and down, practice opening and clearing doors and the subtlties associated with those that swing in vs swing out. Use the opportunity to not only understand the safest way to clear your own home (mine has to be cleared in specific order so as to minimze exposure) but also to understand how you can set up your home to be safer - use of mirrors for example.

Lastly - and I would strongly suggest getting some training here - but dovetailing on to what Photoman stated :

- Since most are right handed, when you make the initial movement at the point of the draw be moving to your left (thier right) because as Saurez and others have pointed out - it is harder for a right handed person to shoot (swing) to their left side. By moving to your left - you are swinging to the right the BG is swinging to his left.

- Learn to fire from a point of retention - fighters stance, use the weak hand (shoulder / forearm / hand to protect ribs / head - blocking incoming fist, bottle, bat) draw, pull the gun tightly into your body with the muzzle just protruding beyond your ribs, use the centerline of your body to index - fire. With practice you will shoot A / C zones out to 10 yrds.

- Learn to fire from a 'Speed Rock' postion - facing T1, draw, clear holster, rotate muzzle 90 degrees to the floor, simultaneously lean back (rock) to index - fire.

The last two are for bad breath distance problems.

- Understand penitration issues - may need to take a knee and shoot at an upward angle if in a crowd

- Shoot in low light / the dark - I can not emphasise that enough

This is a VERY shot list of things to be well versed in. Again this is not really stuff to glean over the net - get some training understood on the $$ issue - meantime purchase some books from respected trainers.

Good luck

Link Posted: 3/1/2006 5:38:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Face_N_The_Crowd:
- Since most are right handed, when you make the initial movement at the point of the draw be moving to your left (thier right) because as Saurez and others have pointed out - it is harder for a right handed person to shoot (swing) to their left side. By moving to your left - you are swinging to the right the BG is swinging to his left.



Can you please explain this in another way? I keep picturing what you're saying and I'm thinking both shooters would then be swinging right. The image isn't right in my head I think.

Thanks
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 11:12:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ORinTX:
Can you please explain this in another way? I keep picturing what you're saying and I'm thinking both shooters would then be swinging right. The image isn't right in my head I think.


Im with you. If you are stepping out the the left and swinging the gun back right, the BG (even if he doesnt step laterally in either direction) will still be swinging right in order to acquire you in his sights.

Link Posted: 3/3/2006 3:31:37 PM EDT
Lately I have gotten into drill shooting as opposed to target shooting.
My primary drill is using a life size silloutte, positioned at an accurate height, about 10 yards away.
I practice draw and shoot from an IWB holster concealed under a shirt or jacket. Every string is three rounds.....a controlled doubletap, with a follow up shot. The first two should come as soon as the target is acquired...these arent rapid fire, just two quick shots that are reasonably aimed with the goal being center mass. The third shot is the follow up and comes maybe a full second after the second shot...it is more of an aimed shot tracking up from center mass into the upper chest region.

From the holster, you should be a few seconds from three holes in the target, in critical areas.
Also practice with additional shots, like 5 shot strings......a doubletap, followed by a another, and then the final follow up shot. This should only take maybe a second more than the 3 shot string, with similar results.

I am a big fan of shot placement. It is the single most important parameter. Caliber and equipment is meaningless if you cant hit the target in a real situation. Slow fire aimed target plinking isnt a good way to prep for a defensive shoot.

Definitely take a class. Then practice every chance you get. Commit to a day at the range only practicing doubletaps, drawn from the holster...make the goal getting good critical hits.

If you cant make it to the range, dry fire practice at home can be a good opportunity to practice getting your weapon out of the holster and into your hands properly. The biggest problem I had when I first started drills was that I was trying to move too quickly and I never got a firm grip on the weapon. Mechanics should be practiced until they are instinct. Practice drawing the weapon, bringing it up to acquire the target, and having your hands in the proper position by the time you are ready to pull the trigger. This is the best way to help make sure your shots are going to hit the target without a concentrated aim. Train for mechanics and drill with realistic situations.

If you guys are shooting together here is a good team exercise.
Have your GF load and then holster her CCW. Then turn around and face away from the range.
You move the target out to a distance and dont let her know how far out - vary it sometimes close, sometimes far - when set up, signal for her to turn, draw, and shoot. Give her a one at 10 yards, then 20, then mix it up and have it only 7 feet away.

Stay safe!
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 7:46:10 PM EDT
Weakhand firing, drawing from cocealment w/ weakhand, one handed reloading and firearm manipulation. When I had better range facilities, vehicular defense drills, fire while moving, firing with obstacles, etc.
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 7:47:52 PM EDT
Mainly Mozambique El Presidente
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 8:34:36 PM EDT
Ok, made it out to the range today. Last night, we worked on drawing from her purse while taking a defensive stance. I would come at her to simulate a threat. With her hands at her sides, she could draw and fire at a close target in 2 seconds pretty consistantly. I also emphasized situational awareness as the most important defensive tactic, and went over the post from glocktalk.com where a member used his CCW.

At the range, we started with Bill Drills for about 100 rounds. This dramatically improved her ability to fire accurately quickly. Then we practiced drawing from her purse while backing up in a defensive stance. Once drawn she would stop moving and fire until I said the target was down. Then I would say whether the BG was still acting agressive toward her (like pulling a gun while on the ground). If the BG was, then she would fire until I said he was no longer moving, otherwise, she would scan for other threats. I would either say there was another target (we had several silhouttes set up) where would repeat the above pattern, or I would say the area was clear. This pattern is based on Sully's FAST concept that photoman shaired. The only thing left out was the tactical reload--I haven't figured out a way for her to carry a spare mag yet.

Her defensive ability has increased exponentially over the past 24 hours. Still need a lot of practice, but we can usually make it to the range about once a week. We can't afford any of the big name formal training centers, but there is a local law enforcement / military trainer that offers one day classes to civilians for a fair price. The name is Law Enforcement Educators near Waco, Texas if anyone's ever heard of it. The place is legit--I've personally seen soldiers from Fort Hood out there doing sniper training.

Thanks to everyone for the information. I will keep scanning through the thread for more drills to practice.
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 6:56:49 AM EDT
I'm gettin' in this a little late, but I didn't notice anyone mentioning the "Tueller Drill".
www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Tueller/How.Close.htm

I've always considered 21 ft to be the limit of the "get hurt zone". I've been told that most judges will also take serious note of a mention of the "drill".

GarBin
http://GreyBeard.igogg.com




Originally Posted By topgunpilot20:
Looking for ideas on what the GF and I can practice at the range. After a post on glocktalk about a member using his pistol defensively, I decided that failure drills were a good idea. I started my GF on them at 3 yards--I figured this is the distance she would most likely have to shoot defensively. She also has a lot of fun practicing failure drills.

From 5 yards out, I have her practice controlled pairs since she can't make reliable head shots from that distance under pressure (she can do it easily with slow fire though). I figured two to the chest would probably stop a BG before he could make the 5 yards to her. If not, he'd be within 3 yards by the time she shot to the head.

Any other ideas? What drills can make a shooter more accurate under pressure--my GF shoots very accurately during slow fire, but sucks at any attempt to be faster.

ETA: I posted this under Carry Issues, because I am asking about drills related to defense while carrying.

Link Posted: 3/10/2006 10:28:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/10/2006 10:29:45 AM EDT by topgunpilot20]
Ok, we went to range again last night. First of all, she traded her 1911 for a full size XD9 . She will use the full size for competition and the subcombact for carry. Also, I convinced her that carrying on the body is superior to purse carry. She bought a Comp-tac CTAC IWB slide holster that fits both of her XDs. Also got a box of Speer Gold Dots to use while carrying.

We started out with a lot of dry fire, then moved on to drawing and shooting two from concealment with her new holster. The Bill Drills really paid off--she can put two rounds COM much quicker now. Then we practiced drawing while moving backwards and firing until I yelled "down." Finally, we did the same thing, only kept walking back while still shooting. We did this with both single and multiple targets.

On the next range trip, I will introduce side stepping while firing and work some more on Sully's FAST concept.

Garbin, I have introduced the 21ft rule to her and shown her how to move off to the 45 while drawing. Also, there is a women's defense (using hands, guns, knives, whatever) course in April that she will probably be taking. Thank you for your suggestion, and welcome to arfcom.
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