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Posted: 2/3/2006 6:41:18 AM EDT
I've been carrying my USP Compact .45, with 8+1 in the gun and another 8 round magazine. Does this seem like an adequate loadout? How many mags do you 1911 guys carry? (Same capacity and caliber)
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 6:48:22 AM EDT
The key is to have 2 different mags in case one has a failure. You have that covered.

It seems like 17 rounds should be enough to get the job done.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 10:29:05 AM EDT
I'll agree. One spare mag is plenty for normal CCW concerns.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 10:56:47 AM EDT
Stats and "normal" go out the window when you have to draw your ccw. Yes damn near all gun fights are less than 3 rounds and like 7 feet or some such shit. Guess what, damn near all of us who carry CCW will NEVER have to draw it. So fuck stats. I carry a Glock22, 15 in the mag one in the pipe and 2 more on my hip. Thats 46 rounds. That and I train like I'm going to war tommorrow. God forbid I ever have to use what I carry and train for, because even if I kill him before he gets a round off and save everyone and don't kill or harm any bystanders, not only is it gonna mess me up, but it could be videotaped and a textbook good shoot and I'll still get sued by someone.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 11:44:56 AM EDT

Stats and "normal" go out the window when you have to draw your ccw.

Nonsense. When you draw your CCW you will always be a part of the stats. Whether you fit within the normal range or not will be decided by a number of factors. Everyone makes their decisions based on what they expect, which is determined by the stats and what is normal. How accurately one makes that decision or how far from the normal one wishes to consider might be open for discussion, but you can't prepare for everything.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 11:57:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Phil_A_Steen:
The key is to have 2 different mags in case one has a failure. You have that covered...



+1

I carry a higher-capacity firearm for my primary CCW now, but when I made the switch (from a compact .45, FWIW) I knew full well that it didn't relieve me of the need for at least one extra magazine on me, just in case (regardles of total round count ).
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 12:04:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By darm441:

Stats and "normal" go out the window when you have to draw your ccw.

Nonsense. When you draw your CCW you will always be a part of the stats. Whether you fit within the normal range or not will be decided by a number of factors. Everyone makes their decisions based on what they expect, which is determined by the stats and what is normal. How accurately one makes that decision or how far from the normal one wishes to consider might be open for discussion, but you can't prepare for everything.

You can sure as hell try.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 12:26:33 PM EDT
I always carry at least one extra mag, giving me a total of 31 rounds. But I use that pussy 9mm stuff...
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 12:49:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dusty_C:

Originally Posted By darm441:

Stats and "normal" go out the window when you have to draw your ccw.

Nonsense. When you draw your CCW you will always be a part of the stats. Whether you fit within the normal range or not will be decided by a number of factors. Everyone makes their decisions based on what they expect, which is determined by the stats and what is normal. How accurately one makes that decision or how far from the normal one wishes to consider might be open for discussion, but you can't prepare for everything.


You can sure as hell try.



+1,000

I carry at least 35 rounds in two mags for my primary and a BUG.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 12:53:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Kreutzberg:
I've been carrying my USP Compact .45, with 8+1 in the gun and another 8 round magazine. Does this seem like an adequate loadout? How many mags do you 1911 guys carry? (Same capacity and caliber)



Yes.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 9:10:39 PM EDT
I say a big MINUS 1 to all the guys who are advocating packing a large ammount of ammo. If you get into a situation where you discharge that kind of round count, YOU have a major problem, and it doesn't involve any sort of attack on you. You were either:

A) in a place you NEVER should have been in the first place, and will most likely NOT shoot your way out of. There is a good chance that even if you DO get out of there, you will at least see some time in court for not retreating when you had the opportunity (even in FL). CCW is not a license to cruise the ghetto at 2am.

B) have discharged VASTLY more ammo than was reasonable expected, and you will most likely be doing time in prison as a result, and wont need to worry about how much ammo to carry, because you will NEVER own a gun again.

If you are ever in a real no shit self defense situation, and you need to reload (because you expended your magazine, regardless of capacity) you will most likely fall into either category A or B- and neither ends up going well for you

I carry my pistol with ONE mag loaded to its standard capacity. I keep my guns and mags well maintained and fire them regularly to ensure that they will work properly. I strongly believe that this is all that is necessary.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 9:32:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By USAF_Hop_N_Pop:
I say a big MINUS 1 to all the guys who are advocating packing a large ammount of ammo. If you get into a situation where you discharge that kind of round count, YOU have a major problem, and it doesn't involve any sort of attack on you. You were either:

A) in a place you NEVER should have been in the first place, and will most likely NOT shoot your way out of. There is a good chance that even if you DO get out of there, you will at least see some time in court for not retreating when you had the opportunity (even in FL). CCW is not a license to cruise the ghetto at 2am.

B) have discharged VASTLY more ammo than was reasonable expected, and you will most likely be doing time in prison as a result, and wont need to worry about how much ammo to carry, because you will NEVER own a gun again.

If you are ever in a real no shit self defense situation, and you need to reload (because you expended your magazine, regardless of capacity) you will most likely fall into either category A or B- and neither ends up going well for you

I carry my pistol with ONE mag loaded to its standard capacity. I keep my guns and mags well maintained and fire them regularly to ensure that they will work properly. I strongly believe that this is all that is necessary.



Go ahead and carry an amount of ammo you deem politically correct. That sounds like a great idea.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 9:37:09 PM EDT
I carry a 1911 w/ two spare mags and a J-frame with a spare speed strip of six rounds for a total of 36, and I wonder sometimes if that is enough.(Even though I know it probably is)
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 9:50:26 PM EDT


Originally Posted By USAF_Hop_N_Pop:
I say a big MINUS 1 to all the guys who are advocating packing a large ammount of ammo. If you get into a situation where you discharge that kind of round count, YOU have a major problem, and it doesn't involve any sort of attack on you. You were either:

A) in a place you NEVER should have been in the first place, and will most likely NOT shoot your way out of. There is a good chance that even if you DO get out of there, you will at least see some time in court for not retreating when you had the opportunity (even in FL). CCW is not a license to cruise the ghetto at 2am.

B) have discharged VASTLY more ammo than was reasonable expected, and you will most likely be doing time in prison as a result, and wont need to worry about how much ammo to carry, because you will NEVER own a gun again.

If you are ever in a real no shit self defense situation, and you need to reload (because you expended your magazine, regardless of capacity) you will most likely fall into either category A or B- and neither ends up going well for you

I carry my pistol with ONE mag loaded to its standard capacity. I keep my guns and mags well maintained and fire them regularly to ensure that they will work properly. I strongly believe that this is all that is necessary.



Your advice is terrible. Please keep it to yourself. If I ever have what you so lightly term a "major problem," I'd rather respond with ammunition from my third maagazine and explain that to the cops than have the cops explain why I'm dead to my faamily. Seems like a no brainer. Do this shit right or don't do it at all.

If you aren't carrying 2+ mags, you aren't serious.
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 1:50:57 AM EDT
I would pprobably have to say go with what you feel comfortable with. But, if you need more than that amount of ammo (god forbid) and you shoot that last round think of how silly you'd feel about posting on here that you only needed x amount of ammo! :P


<---Trying to lighten up the conversation. I've been carrying 8+1 w/ extra 8. However I think I'm going to bump that up to another spare mag myself.
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 2:02:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/4/2006 2:06:18 AM EDT by 1IV]
Cary the extra mag always. I also always have a spare box of 50 ball rounds in the car. Heay ya never know.
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 2:20:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By USAF_Hop_N_Pop:
I say a big MINUS 1 to all the guys who are advocating packing a large ammount of ammo. If you get into a situation where you discharge that kind of round count, YOU have a major problem, and it doesn't involve any sort of attack on you. You were either:

A) in a place you NEVER should have been in the first place, and will most likely NOT shoot your way out of. There is a good chance that even if you DO get out of there, you will at least see some time in court for not retreating when you had the opportunity (even in FL). CCW is not a license to cruise the ghetto at 2am.

B) have discharged VASTLY more ammo than was reasonable expected, and you will most likely be doing time in prison as a result, and wont need to worry about how much ammo to carry, because you will NEVER own a gun again.

If you are ever in a real no shit self defense situation, and you need to reload (because you expended your magazine, regardless of capacity) you will most likely fall into either category A or B- and neither ends up going well for you

I carry my pistol with ONE mag loaded to its standard capacity. I keep my guns and mags well maintained and fire them regularly to ensure that they will work properly. I strongly believe that this is all that is necessary.



I am having a great deal of difficulty responding to your post without calling into question your intelligence or lack there of. I feel that the information you have posted is not only inaccurate, but faulty, deceitful, ambiguous, lacking in facts, and down right dangerous.


Link Posted: 2/4/2006 2:27:39 AM EDT
Let me put it this way: your CCW is a strictly DEFENSIVE weapon. That means that you draw it to DEFEND yourself long enough to terminate the threat situation to you as fast as possible. If that means shooting a BG who means you harm, so be it. It DOES NOT mean to stick around and shoot it out with 10 BG's until they are all dead/gone. Just because you have a CCW does not make you Dirty Harry. If you have reasonable means of escape from a threat situation, you need to take it. "Shooting it out" is far more dangerous for you and everyone else.

I question those who bring tons of ammo around every day: do you also wear your tinfoil hat "just in case?"

As I said before, you will NEVER legally need that much ammo, and if you get into a situation where you think you do, you should never have been in that location in the first place.
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 6:51:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By USAF_Hop_N_Pop:
Let me put it this way: your CCW is a strictly DEFENSIVE weapon. That means that you draw it to DEFEND yourself long enough to terminate the threat situation to you as fast as possible. If that means shooting a BG who means you harm, so be it. It DOES NOT mean to stick around and shoot it out with 10 BG's until they are all dead/gone. Just because you have a CCW does not make you Dirty Harry. If you have reasonable means of escape from a threat situation, you need to take it. "Shooting it out" is far more dangerous for you and everyone else.

I question those who bring tons of ammo around every day: do you also wear your tinfoil hat "just in case?"

As I said before, you will NEVER legally need that much ammo, and if you get into a situation where you think you do, you should never have been in that location in the first place.

How ya gonna defend yourself with only 8 rounds? North hollywood robberies happen all over the country. If a pistol was all I had and I was caught up in that, I'd sure as hell want more than one mag. Real life is NEVER as easy as training and hitting anything, no matter how hard you train is hard. Guess what, all these cops we see missing shot after shot after shot when the SHTF, some of them are gun nuts that train way more than dept regs say. If you DON'T carry enough to ensure that you can exit a sitution, your irresponsible.
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 7:10:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/4/2006 7:12:26 AM EDT by PBIR]

Originally Posted By Dusty_C:

If you DON'T carry enough to ensure that you can exit a sitution, your irresponsible.





I've seen dozens (if not hundreds) of reports where a would-be victim defended themself with a few well placed shots. I can't think of any of the top of my head where 3 mags were needed.

North Hollywood bank robberies are the exception not the rule and frankly most members here would be a corpse if they jumped up with their glock .40's to take on two men with body armor and full auto ak47's. Like the man says in Heat, "Your money is insured".


IMO If you walk around with the type of mentality that allows you to get in a situation that you need 45 rounds to exit you're irresponsible. A permit is not a badge and should not be confused with one. Flame on internet ninjas, flame on



Link Posted: 2/4/2006 7:23:54 AM EDT
I do not have a CCWP, but I DO know that the weakest link in any reliable weapon is your mags and your ammo. Even proven mags can fail from time to time. There are thousands of scenarios where you may need more rounds than what you have on you. Are they likely? No. Do you want to be killed from a lack of shooting back? I plan on getting my CCWP soon, if the need ever arises that I need to shoot someone with it my plan will not involve firing 3 rounds at the threat and then turning my back to it, to run away. I will shoot until the threat is no more or I can no longer return fire. Faced with 3 attackers I lean more towards my shooting ability than my fleetness afoot. I had rather take two to the chest than one to the back.
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 7:29:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/4/2006 7:30:26 AM EDT by Gloftoe]
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 8:29:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dusty_C:
How ya gonna defend yourself with only 8 rounds? North hollywood robberies happen all over the country. If a pistol was all I had and I was caught up in that, I'd sure as hell want more than one mag. Real life is NEVER as easy as training and hitting anything, no matter how hard you train is hard. Guess what, all these cops we see missing shot after shot after shot when the SHTF, some of them are gun nuts that train way more than dept regs say. If you DON'T carry enough to ensure that you can exit a sitution, your irresponsible.



I'd agree that 8rds is on the low side for what is needed to defend yourself. Personally I carry 15rds of 9mm JHP, which I feel is more than enough to DEFEND myself and anyone I am with from IMMEDIATE danger. If a North Hollywood robbery were to break out, unless I am the target, my ass is OUT of there. You are NOT a LEO, and therefore should not be taking part in any shootout, in fact, if you WERE to just jump into a shootout like that, I wouldnt be suprised if you were held liable for any colateral dammage you caused, or were just shot by a confused cop who doesnt know the differnce from a BG in civilian clothing shooting a gun and a suburban internet commando in civilian clothing shooting a gun. As much as you may like to think so, a CCW license, and even one of those retarded CCW badges does not give you ANY sort of law enforcement capacity. It is merely a license to carry a weapon to defend YOURSELF and YOUR company from immediate danger. It is not an obligation, or even a suggestion to take it upon yourself to be a good samaratan. If you want to carry 2 spare mags plus one in the weapon locked and loaded, go be a real cop.

And as for mags crapping out: if you even remotely think there is a possibility of your mags/weapon taking a dump, you need to re-evaluate your selection of carry weapon/mags. I trust my weapon and mags with my life, and with good reason.
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 8:31:44 AM EDT
I carry a G20 in with 15rnd mags so I get 31, 10mm with one in the pipe.
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 8:33:23 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 8:53:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Gloftoe:

Originally Posted By USAF_Hop_N_Pop:And as for mags crapping out: if you even remotely think there is a possibility of your mags/weapon taking a dump, you need to re-evaluate your selection of carry weapon/mags. I trust my weapon and mags with my life, and with good reason.

ANYTHING mechanical can and will fail. It's not a matter of if, but when.

Two is one. One is none.

+eleventybillion. I carry 46 rounds total of 155gr .40 ranger. Why? Not because I ever think I'll have to dump 3 mags to unass the AO, but because even though I shoot a Glock, shit breaks or malfunctions. I'm not betting my life on one, or even 2 mags.
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 9:43:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Gloftoe:

Originally Posted By USAF_Hop_N_Pop:And as for mags crapping out: if you even remotely think there is a possibility of your mags/weapon taking a dump, you need to re-evaluate your selection of carry weapon/mags. I trust my weapon and mags with my life, and with good reason.

ANYTHING mechanical can and will fail. It's not a matter of if, but when.

Two is one. One is none.



What if you have to go to/are knocked to the ground and your floorplate is cracked sending ammo everywhere? I have seen it happen. If you have a spare mag you can reload and be back in the fight in seconds. If not, what would you do? You could chase your ammo around on the ground and load them into the chamber by hand one at a time.
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 11:20:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Gloftoe:

Originally Posted By USAF_Hop_N_Pop:And as for mags crapping out: if you even remotely think there is a possibility of your mags/weapon taking a dump, you need to re-evaluate your selection of carry weapon/mags. I trust my weapon and mags with my life, and with good reason.

ANYTHING mechanical can and will fail. It's not a matter of if, but when.

Two is one. One is none.



Agreed, sir. It is easy to take it too far and try to cart a crew-served weapon with you wherever you go, but it is just as easy to say you will never need more than is in your gun. Both are incorrect ideas and methods.

I personally carry 18 rounds, in 2 mags, and feel perfectly able to defend myself. The ability to change mags is much more important than how many rounds I can carry. 7+1 in the gun and a 10 round spare makes me feel fine. I am conscious to avoid situations where I could get into a prolonged gunfight or would need more than that. I'm not "providing cover fire" or "reconning by fire" so I don't more ammo.
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 1:08:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By vanilla_gorilla:

Agreed, sir. It is easy to take it too far and try to cart a crew-served weapon with you wherever you go, but it is just as easy to say you will never need more than is in your gun. Both are incorrect ideas and methods.

I personally carry 18 rounds, in 2 mags, and feel perfectly able to defend myself. The ability to change mags is much more important than how many rounds I can carry. 7+1 in the gun and a 10 round spare makes me feel fine. I am conscious to avoid situations where I could get into a prolonged gunfight or would need more than that. I'm not "providing cover fire" or "reconning by fire" so I don't more ammo.



That's about the right philosophy right there. Self defense starts with making a concious effort to not get into a situation where you need to defend yourself in the first place. I do see your points on broken mags, and maybe I will reconsider whether I carry a spare or not.

Just keep in mind: reloading is a CONSCIOUS decision that you need more ammo than what you have already fired. If you empty your weapon in self defense you can always claim panic trigger pull, but there is no such thing as a panic mag change. If you do change that mag, MAKE DAMN SURE YOU NEED IT! You WILL be asked why you felt the need to reload either by the responding LEO or god forbid by a grand jury.
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 1:49:35 PM EDT
I carry a Glock 26 with 13 rounds in the weapon. I have a second 17 round mag in my pocket. Some of the time I have a second 17 round mag or a 31 round mag close.

Now-a-days, it's not uncommon multiple BG's are involved in a crime. If you limit yourself to one mag, you are over estimating your ability in a firefight. You might be really great at shooting paper targets that don't pose a threat.

My Captain was involved in a shoot out. The bad guy shot at him two times before he could draw. The bad guys don't have to worry if they shoot and don't think twice about pulling the trigger. He fired seven rounds and hit the BG three times. He's not a slouch. He's a very good shot and qualifies 100%, with paper targets.

If your drawing from a holster, your first and maybe your second round will be into the ground. Ask people that have been involved in shootouts. It true. Then you have to get on target, while staring down the barrel of a gun that is about to throw another round, or two, in your direction.

The more ammo I have, the better equipped I am to handle a really bad situation and multiple targets.

_____________________


Link Posted: 2/4/2006 2:14:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Colt_SBR:
I carry a Glock 26 with 13 rounds in the weapon. I have a second 17 round mag in my pocket. Some of the time I have a second 17 round mag or a 31 round mag close.

Now-a-days, it's not uncommon multiple BG's are involved in a crime. If you limit yourself to one mag, you are over estimating your ability in a firefight. You might be really great at shooting paper targets that don't pose a threat.

My Captain was involved in a shoot out. The bad guy shot at him two times before he could draw. The bad guys don't have to worry if they shoot and don't think twice about pulling the trigger. He fired seven rounds and hit the BG three times. He's not a slouch. He's a very good shot and qualifies 100%, with paper targets.

If your drawing from a holster, your first and maybe your second round will be into the ground. Ask people that have been involved in shootouts. It true. Then you have to get on target, while staring down the barrel of a gun that is about to throw another round, or two, in your direction.

The more ammo I have, the better equipped I am to handle a really bad situation and multiple targets.

_____________________

img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/Colt_SBR/57985sm.gif



Stop making sense.

Link Posted: 2/4/2006 2:21:21 PM EDT
I carry one spare mag for my .40 cal sig. No spare mag is stupid. You may not have to fire 24 shots, but hit that mag release on accident and your screwed. I'm also comfortable carrying a 5 shot revolver with one reload.
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 6:56:02 PM EDT
OK, here is an honest question...

What about a revolver? The chance of mechanical failure is very slim. The chance of magazine failure is 0.

I carry a .357. It holds 5 rounds. I figure if I need more than that, I am certainly in a world of trouble that I most likely could have avoided.

Misfire? Dud? Very, VERY slim chance.

The NRA certified instructor who taught our CCW course told us <Paraphrased> "If you have time to reload, your life is not in immediate danger"
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 7:35:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FATMANTPK:
OK, here is an honest question...

What about a revolver? The chance of mechanical failure is very slim. The chance of magazine failure is 0.

I carry a .357. It holds 5 rounds. I figure if I need more than that, I am certainly in a world of trouble that I most likely could have avoided.

Misfire? Dud? Very, VERY slim chance.

The NRA certified instructor who taught our CCW course told us <Paraphrased> "If you have time to reload, your life is not in immediate danger"



Instructors ain't always the brightest lot around.....there was a thread around here where one claimed that a loaf of bread could stop a .45.

I look at it like this: The penalty for carrying too much ammo is far less than that for not having enough.

Link Posted: 2/4/2006 8:15:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FATMANTPK:
OK, here is an honest question...

What about a revolver? The chance of mechanical failure is very slim. The chance of magazine failure is 0.

I carry a .357. It holds 5 rounds. I figure if I need more than that, I am certainly in a world of trouble that I most likely could have avoided.

Misfire? Dud? Very, VERY slim chance.

The NRA certified instructor who taught our CCW course told us <Paraphrased> "If you have time to reload, your life is not in immediate danger"



Carrying a gun with no spare ammo is like counting on the air bag to save your life because putting on the seat belt is too much trouble.
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 8:28:15 PM EDT
It's not the odds, its the stakes. Sure, you are unlikely to need the gun, let alone a second magazine. But that is little comfort if you are the one poor bastard in a million who ends up lying on the pavement with a pistol at slidelock and attackers still breathing.
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 8:32:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
It's not the odds, its the stakes. Sure, you are unlikely to need the gun, let alone a second magazine. But that is little comfort if you are the one poor bastard in a million who ends up lying on the pavement with a pistol at slidelock and attackers still breathing.

Give this man a Gold star! wait he already has a platinum one Seriously though. This is exactly what I've been trying to say for a long time.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 2:11:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FATMANTPK:
OK, here is an honest question...

What about a revolver? The chance of mechanical failure is very slim. The chance of magazine failure is 0.

I carry a .357. It holds 5 rounds. I figure if I need more than that, I am certainly in a world of trouble that I most likely could have avoided.

Misfire? Dud? Very, VERY slim chance.

The NRA certified instructor who taught our CCW course told us <Paraphrased> "If you have time to reload, your life is not in immediate danger"



This was posted here long ago, where it was stolen from a GlockTalk post*. I won't post the entire discussion, but put yourself in this man's position and tell me whether you think 5 rounds of .357 is enough.

*If the original poster is here or somebody here knows him and me posting this is causing a problem, please let me know. This story was written and posted in a public forum, so I'm going on the assumption that it's OK to post again. Again, this is NOT my story, nor do I have any affiliation with the writer.


Originally posted by .45greg
I would like to hear of a story where a group of thugs are met by one of these heavily armed GlockTalk gun owners… imagine the look on their face.



A guy and his lady friend are walking down a street after eating a nice steak dinner on Friday night. The area is busy and the only parking available was a nice walk away, not a problem on a beautiful October night.

So the guy, who has had a lot of firearms courses notices a van slowly driving the other direction on the street. The guy notices the deep gurgling sound of the exhaust, but really doesn't think much of it. Then he notices a couple of thugs crossing the street; said GTer is uncomfortable because he and his lady friend seemed to get too much attention from the guys crossing the street. One of those "it just doesn't feel right" type of things.

So the couple continue walking toward the parking garage, when the GTer notices the gurgling sound of that van slowly passing by them. Then the GTer, who regularly uses windows to watch his 6, notices the two thugs that crossed the street coming up behind them. One of the thugs is clearly holding his right hand suspiciously around his belt buckle area. Then said GTer notices the van stopped on the side of the street just ahead and the 2 thugs behind them are getting closer.

GTer tells his lady friend that they are going to duck into any open business they see, but there were not any available. Just as they were coming up on the van, 2 ****-eaters jump out of the van and block the sidewalk. Gter draws his Kimber .45, and moves to engage the thugs 5 feet behind them; the intention was to go to low ready and size up the situation. The two from the van did not appear to be armed and one behind them was already spotted as armed.

So GTer turns and starts to shout at the two thugs on foot when the armed one begins to pull a revolver (SW .38 special). GTer, had the jump because the thugs in the rear did not see him remove his pistol from his daytimer style carry (they had been where alcohol was sold, but he did not drink).

The GTer always, always, always shoots failure drill at the range and trains at least twice a month.

As the BG #1 pulls the pistol, the GTer puts two rounds COM and moves up and puts one in the eye area. There was absolutely no reaction to the chest shots in the BG. The second thug turns to his falling comrade and tries to get his pistol, as GTer puts 2 slugs in his COM and one in the side of the head, GTer didn't know he hit BG #2 with the first 2 rounds. The second thug didn't have time to get turned around to face GTer, and didn't go down from the two to the chest, so said GTer puts one is the side of his head. Both third shots, at 5 feet, were very messy. Luckily for GTer, the second thug did get his hands on the pistol (a fact that would greatly help him in the future). So after the two in the rear were neutralized, GTer turned to check on the two from the van who had started moving his way. When GTer turned to engage them, gun at low ready, they turned and ran to the van got in and the van sped off.

The thugs were linked to other rapes and 2 abductions of similar method, and had sheets as long as your arm. (funny how that wasn't admissable in court) The thugs from the van looked more pissed than scared, and GTer would encounter them later in life. Turns out they were members of the Gangsta Disciples. The Gangsta's don't take lightly to seeing their bro.s being shot down in the street.

The aftermath: Said GTer was charged with manslaughter (the jury was given other options too) and was found not guilty by a jury of his peers. Deliberations took less than 3 hours. Some of the city council PERSONS believed that failure drill represented too much force and GTer should have not made the last shot on the guys. Of course, if he had not made the third shots in the failure drill, the thugs would be alive today. So city council PERSON, pressures the DA and viola, the decision is made to charge him.

The cost to GTer to stay out of prison was $18,000+. That works out to be $3k per shot, or $9k per bad guy.

The situation doesn't often end as well in his dreams, as it did in real time, but he never can quite get it behind him. He carries a strange sense of guilt.

The girlfriend that GTer was trying to protect, broke up with him 3 weeks later. She just never could get over it and could not understand the violent nature of his counterattack. She dumped him, which broke his heart, but she was a very good witness for his defense, and for that he is eternally grateful.

The follow up encounters (turns out during a trial, it isn't hard to get the home address of the defendant) with the Gangsta Disciples were a little better; and no charges were placed in those instances.

Sorry if GTer wasn't armed with and AK, but then they would never have picked us to attack.

The morals of the story: Live with what happened, or with what may have happened- his girlfriend being abducted..... It is better to be tried by 12.... When the SHTF, you fall back on your training in automatic mode. So train well and often.


Link Posted: 2/5/2006 4:39:41 AM EDT
The guy fired 6 shots in what I am sure is an extraordinary situation. This shows that carrying 999+ rounds in your backpack is not necessary.

Most times, after you clear leather and fire a shot or two, dirtbags are going to leave.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 5:15:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FATMANTPK:
The guy fired 6 shots in what I am sure is an extraordinary situation. This shows that carrying 999+ rounds in your backpack is not necessary.

Most times, after you clear leather and fire a shot or two, dirtbags are going to leave.




some people are hopeless, it is STUPID to trust your life to one mag or cylinder full of ammo. no one is saying you need to carry 1000 rounds or even a hundred rounds, but at LEAST have one reload.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 6:21:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FATMANTPK:
The guy fired 6 shots in what I am sure is an extraordinary situation. This shows that carrying 999+ rounds in your backpack is not necessary.

Most times, after you clear leather and fire a shot or two, dirtbags are going to leave.



He fired six rounds from what was likely a pistol holding eight rounds. What if the guys in the van HAD got out and wanted to fight?
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 6:41:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FATMANTPK:
The guy fired 6 shots in what I am sure is an extraordinary situation. This shows that carrying 999+ rounds in your backpack is not necessary.

Most times, after you clear leather and fire a shot or two, dirtbags are going to leave.

And if the other two attacked, by my count he will have fired twelve rounds, not knowing for sure whether the van is empty, or there are others waiting in it, even with Tactical Tupperware, you'd be almost out of ammo, and unable to face another threat effectively!
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 6:53:44 AM EDT
lot o'bullshit flying around in this thread.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 11:19:20 AM EDT

You can sure as hell try.

Sure you can try, but even that decision of what to try to prepare for first is based on stats and norms. The more information you have the more accurate your decisions can be. You might be able to try, but you cannot be prepared for everything, so you might as well make the decision on what to prepare for and how to prepare for it based on reality.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 11:25:30 AM EDT

I carry my pistol with ONE mag loaded to its standard capacity. I keep my guns and mags well maintained and fire them regularly to ensure that they will work properly. I strongly believe that this is all that is necessary.

That is pretty much it. Way to many CCW holders seem to have fantasies that they will get into extended gunfights with gangbangers where they will be able to swap lead for hours without ever getting over-run or shot. For most people, if you need these huge amounts of ammo the problem you need to worry about is not running out of ammo, it is something far more basic.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 11:28:39 AM EDT

North hollywood robberies happen all over the country. If a pistol was all I had and I was caught up in that, I'd sure as hell want more than one mag.

As a non-LE CCW holder, why would you get caught up in that in a manner that would cause you to need more than 8 rounds? Look at all those non-LE folks who didn't have any guns at all and they made it through the fight OK.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 11:45:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By modog:
lot o'bullshit flying around in this thread.



Ayup.

For the record I carry a 20" AR cocked and locked with 6 extra magazines on a daily basis. People look at me funny in Walmart but hey, at least the greeter leaves me alone.



Seriously, I think 1 or 2 extra mags are okay, depending on the size and capacity of the magazines and the comfort level of wearing it and the ability to conceal them. You go too much farther than that on a daily basis and you're probably wandering deep into urban commando territory. However, just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you.

As for "you're stupid if you don't carry an extra mag", lighten up. If someone carries a gun, period, they're part of the 99th percentile. It's up to the individual to determine if the reliability/capacity benefit of an extra magazine or 2 outweighs the pain in the ass to actually wear them and conceal them. Same goes for a BUG.

Some of you guys are kinda out there with this stuff to the point where I wonder if you feel safe on the freeway without a M240 mounted on your vehicle.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 11:55:41 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 2:14:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FATMANTPK:
The guy fired 6 shots in what I am sure is an extraordinary situation. This shows that carrying 999+ rounds in your backpack is not necessary.

Most times, after you clear leather and fire a shot or two, dirtbags are going to leave.



Well shit, if that doesn't happen you should just give up, right?
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 5:36:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By USAF_Hop_N_Pop:
I say a big MINUS 1 to all the guys who are advocating packing a large ammount of ammo. If you get into a situation where you discharge that kind of round count, YOU have a major problem, and it doesn't involve any sort of attack on you. You were either:

A) in a place you NEVER should have been in the first place, and will most likely NOT shoot your way out of. There is a good chance that even if you DO get out of there, you will at least see some time in court for not retreating when you had the opportunity (even in FL). CCW is not a license to cruise the ghetto at 2am.

B) have discharged VASTLY more ammo than was reasonable expected, and you will most likely be doing time in prison as a result, and wont need to worry about how much ammo to carry, because you will NEVER own a gun again.

If you are ever in a real no shit self defense situation, and you need to reload (because you expended your magazine, regardless of capacity) you will most likely fall into either category A or B- and neither ends up going well for you

I carry my pistol with ONE mag loaded to its standard capacity. I keep my guns and mags well maintained and fire them regularly to ensure that they will work properly. I strongly believe that this is all that is necessary.



Any chance you might have some case law to back all that up?
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 5:49:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By USAF_Hop_N_Pop:
I say a big MINUS 1 to all the guys who are advocating packing a large ammount of ammo. If you get into a situation where you discharge that kind of round count, YOU have a major problem Just like everyone who carries a gun has a small penis, those who need re-loads have an even smaller one, and it doesn't involve any sort of attack on you. You were either:

A) in a place you NEVER should have been in the first place, and will most likely NOT shoot your way out of. There is a good chance that even if you DO get out of there, you will at least see some time in court for not retreating when you had the opportunity (even in FL). CCW is not a license to cruise the ghetto at 2am. because we all know that bad people only hang out and do bad things in certain areas that are cordoned off and clearly marked so unsuspecting folks will never either accidentally travel there, and the residents of said areas never travel outside of these areas to commit crimes

B) have discharged VASTLY more ammo than was reasonable expected, and you will most likely be doing time in prison as a result, and wont need to worry about how much ammo to carry, because you will NEVER own a gun again. Any more than 17 rounds fired is a crime, this is a law written somewhere. If more rounds than 17 are fired a felony has been committed and you will goto jail for pre meditated murder because obviously you were out looking for a shoot out.

If you are ever in a real no shit self defense situation, and you need to reload (because you expended your magazine, regardless of capacity) you will most likely fall into either category A or B- and neither ends up going well for you. It is better to end up dead than in a litigious situation. It would probably be best that if you were to fire more than one magazine worth of rounds to off yourself with a remaining round so as to save yourself from the possibility of going to court

I carry my pistol with ONE mag loaded to its standard capacity. I keep my guns and mags well maintained and fire them regularly to ensure that they will work properly. I strongly believe that this is all that is necessary. I am cooler than you, I carry only one magazine so I can be like Musashi, the great Samurai warrior who went to duels with only a wooden sword. I will never shoot someone too much.



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