Wow, has this turned into a scary thread or what? I have received 4 different reactions to the same question, mostly contradicting each other & the best anyone can come up with is what txinvestigator said, about being "Reasonable". Everyone in this thread had their own idea on what is reasonable. Remember, that this whole situation probably starts and ends in about 15 seconds. What you do in between will affect your life forever.

Just goes to show that having a CCP is serious business that can easily place you on the wrong side of the law in a hurry. I will continue to carry however, and pray my gun never has to leave it's holser.

This is very interesting. Most of the people on this forum probably have a reasonably good idea on when to brandish a firearm and they can't agree. Now imagine a jury that has no idea. These people are deciding your fate after a shooting. Scary huh?

Well, let's see.......

You expect a courtroom answer without a real scenario. There is a big difference between a few sentence scenario and reality.

You are going to get different opinions from everyone you talk to......why is that?

We are ALL different. Size, weight, height, abilities, training, environment, experience, etc.

To expect a single common answer for a complex scenario is asking too much.

A prime example is a small frame woman like my wife. One guy attacks her and she could easily justify shooting him, yet a male would have a harder time in that same situation.

Quoted: Well, let's see....... You expect a courtroom answer without a real scenario. There is a big difference between a few sentence scenario and reality.

Thank you.  Exactly what I said.  

The use of force or deadly force cannot be summarized in a few paragraphs. I recommend you read and understand the statutes.   Using your scenario - there is not enough information present to make an assumption, and anyone making such an assumption would be irresponsible, or ignorant of the legal process.

Really that is the net of it.  You better know why you did what you did, you better be able to present it in a way that will be credible to a jury, and in the end it's all a crap shoot and there is no good answer to what will happen in the mind of a DA, or a jury, or a civil trail even, until ya get there.

Quoted: I know there is a statistic out there regarding the distance between victim and assailant during a shooting.  Anyone know what that is?  My biggest concern about carrying is having an attacker get so close that my ability to get to my gun and/or aim it properly are removed.  Learning to 'create space' is one of the most important skills you obtain when carrying concealed, IMO, and having to make a decision as to whether you NEED to create space plays a big part in whether to draw or not.

In the 1.5 seconds that it takes most people to draw and fire one shot, an attacker with a contact weapon can move 21 feet and strike. Some people now believe the distance for this to be 30 feet or more, YMMV.

Quoted: Quoted: I know there is a statistic out there regarding the distance between victim and assailant during a shooting.  Anyone know what that is?  My biggest concern about carrying is having an attacker get so close that my ability to get to my gun and/or aim it properly are removed.  Learning to 'create space' is one of the most important skills you obtain when carrying concealed, IMO, and having to make a decision as to whether you NEED to create space plays a big part in whether to draw or not. In the 1.5 seconds that it takes most people to draw and fire one shot, an attacker with a contact weapon can move 21 feet and strike. Some people now believe the distance for this to be 30 feet or more, YMMV.

This is why even basic unarmed fighting skill is neccecary, if not only to give yourself time to make a contact shot.

And why my CRKT Cruiser is always with me.  Plus you need at least some basic training in using a folder as a weapon.

Quoted: And why my CRKT Cruiser is always with me.  Plus you need at least some basic training in using a folder as a weapon.

http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=447162  thread of mine on GT.

The legal side of drawing varies greatly by state.  In many states, you may not draw unless the conditions for using deadly force are satisfied.  In other states (such as Ohio), reasonable (non-lethal) force may be used to protect yourself and even to protect property.  The mere act of drawing a gun is non-lethal force, and whether or not it was reasonable given the circumstances will be determined by a jury if the matter comes to trial.  (The charge would most likely be aggrevated menacing.)  

I have displayed a gun and even fired a gun in several situations in Ohio without anyone ever pressing charges:

1.  A drug dealer was crossing my property on a regular basis on a gravel road.  I blocked the road with a vehicle to detain the driver for local LEO's.  While waiting, I displayed a shotgun to encourage the driver not to do anything stupid.

2.  A rotweiller was knockng my kids down and trying to enter my home.  I drew and fired at the rotweiller which then retreated.  I missed, but I have been practicing a lot more since then.

3.  A group of tresspassers threatened to kill the dog accompanying me when I confronted them.  They were on a 100' high ridge and I was on the bottom as the dog climbed up toward them on the ridge.  They threatened to throw the dog off of the cliff.  A warning shot into a tree ended that idea and sent them scampering away rapidly.

My wife was also recently on a jury that acquitted a CHL holder of an aggrevated menacing charge for drawing his gun in defense of one of his son's friends.

Michael Courtney

Add to the situation age or gender factors.  What if you're a 65 y/o woman being harrassed by what appear to be gang-bangers?  What if you're a 30 y/o guy with your wife and 2.5 kids in tow, and are verbally threatned by some 17/18/19 y/o gang-bangers? OR!! what if you are a 48 y/o male being accosted by 3 or 4 female thugs??

While there are numerous circumstances and tidbits of advise, I personally believe that threat avoidance is the key to not being involved in a shooting. However, if you are totally taken off-guard, then the key piece of advise is "are you really" as in REALLY, TRULY, facing serious bodily harm or death (you or your family member, etc.).

Sure, being a master of some form of martial art or boxing (or even the scary use of a weed-eater), might help stand your ground, but the moment you are outnumbered or a weapon enters the scene, there is only one person to make that life/death shoot/don't shoot decision - YOU... and after you make it, you will need to live with the outcome and defend your decision, never second guessing your choice publicly or privately. (no monday morning quarterbacking here!)

By making the commitment to carry a concealed weapon you need to have the mind-set that when the situation arises, you will use that weapon for the reason you chose to carry. Clearly a 45 y/o white male that shot a 17 y/o black/hispanic/whatever will have an uphill battle with the media and possibly civil action, "RIGHT IS RIGHT" and if the gang-banger wasn't out selling crack/meth/whatever and needed to prove-up his street cred by attacking you, then you would never have needed to resort to self defense.

Quoted: While there are numerous circumstances and tidbits of advise, I personally believe that threat avoidance is the key to not being involved in a shooting. However, if you are totally taken off-guard, then the key piece of advise is "are you really" as in REALLY, TRULY, facing serious bodily harm or death (you or your family member, etc.).

The question is "when to draw?" not "when to shoot a threat?"  As I mentioned above, a gun can be legally drawn in many states without having legal justification for shooting a threat.  Some states even allow for "reasonable force" to be used to prevent property crimes.  This opens the door to warning shots in some situations.

I already posted above a situation where I legally used a warning shot to save the life of a dog I was hunting with.  On another occasion, we had some animal rights activists coming onto the property and opening gates in order to let our cattle out.   I happened to walk outside and see a trespasser fiddling around near a gate a few hundred feet from my front door.  There were cattle close enough to the gate that they would probably escape before I could get there and close the gate.  Under Ohio law, the crime of opening a gate is relatively minor, and certainly does not justify deadly force.  However, the potential for loss of property and danger to human life is considerable with 1200+ lb cattle wandering through the streets.  I drew my gun and fired two warning shots into the ground to put a stop to the possibility of the gate being opened.

Had the animal rights activists stuck around to press charges regarding the warning shots, and a prosecutor secured an indictment, an Ohio jury would have decided whether or not the warning shots represented a reasonable use of force given the circumstances.  I believe the warning shots were not only reasonable, they were the best course of action in the situation.  Fortunately, I do not live in a state where drawing a pistol or even firing a warning shot is considered deadly force.

Michael Courtney

Quoted: This is very interesting. Most of the people on this forum probably have a reasonably good idea on when to brandish a firearm and they can't agree. Now imagine a jury that has no idea. These people are deciding your fate after a shooting. Scary huh?

The fact that people will tend to disagree on when it is reasonable to draw works in the favor of a potential defendent who has drawn his gun in the face of some criminal threat.  In Ohio, the only way the CHL holder will be convicted is if the jury is unanimous in agreement that drawing the gun was unreasonable under the circumstances.  This is unlikely to occur unless the criminal threat both has no criminal record AND the CHL holder is unable to make a decent case that he reasonably believed that he needed to draw to prevent a crime.

Michael Courtney

Michael restated what i said earlier in his first paragraph.  Drawing is different than firing.  When there is a potential threat to life or limb it is time to draw.  When that threat becomes imminent is when you fire.  Waiting too long to draw your gun is a good way to get yourself killed.

Generally i do not encourage "warning shots" but in a rural setting in michael's case they seem reasonable.

Originally Posted By Michael_Courtney <snip>

Unlike my rural Arfcomers, I live in an urban setting and my situation will be a little different. I believe that the pistol that is always in my pocket holster will serve as a deterrant, or to end the situation in seconds. I've never been involved in a shooting and would prefer to keep that as status quo. But, after re-reading your question, I guess we are talking about "scaring" the b/g away by showing our weapon, right?  (brandishing a weapon is not permited in any states that I am aware of.) If the situation calls for quick de-escalation and a display of the handgun appears to be an option to resolve the matter, then, yes, it is better than shooting the b/g and going through the aftermath (legally, etc.).  

But then again... I've always been told that if I "clear leather" than I better be prepared to use the weapon. I personally don't like the idea of whipping my "gun" out and looking like some kind of cocky bastard trying to scare somebody. Avoidance is the key, as I stated supra. If you're in the dark parking lot and you see some b/g walking toward you, and you wait for him to get close enough to be a real, physical threat, then it is too late. By being aware of the situation and making a mental plan prior to the situation, you could return to the store, or if appropriate, place your hand on the pistol, and ready yourself for the conflict to escalate. In Florida, we recently have the "no retreat" provision enacted and as far as I know, no shootings under same have been reported in the media.

So to answer from my point of view, displaying the weapon would be appropriate when that little voice in your head screams BAD SHIT IS ABOUT TO HAPPEN!!!

Drawing the gun has two potential purposes:

1) Communicating that you are armed and prepared to use a greater level of force.

2) Shortening the time delay before applying deadly force should it become necessary.

It is wrong to suggest that brandishing a firearm is univerally illegal.  Many states permit the use of reasonable force to prevent property crimes and physical attacks that do not justify deadly force.  Drawing a gun can be considered "reasonable" force necessary to prevent property crimes and physical attacks in many situations.

It is also extremely unwise to always wait until it's necessary to apply deadly force before drawing.  One example is the use of a saferoom during a suspected break-in.  A very good and often recommended home security plan is to get everyone into the safe room and cover the door with a gun.  Certainly no one recommends waiting until the door is breached before drawing, but almost everyone recommends waiting until the door is breached before firing.  

I assert that the optimal approach is to have one's gun in hand anytime a situation reaches condition orange.  The only exception is circumstances where visibly drawing a gun would necessarily be interpreted as an unwarranted and unjustified escalation in a situation where both the defender and the criminal have equal rights to be doing what they are doing up to that point.  However, in the case of an employee/business owner or a resident/homeowner defending the home turf against an outside agent, the defender has every right to draw a gun once the criminal intent of the outside agent is reasonably clear.  Of course, this action is going to fare better legally in states with some kind of castle doctrine and in areas where potential prosecutors and jurors have a strong sense of the castle doctrine when considering whether or not actions are reasonable.

Michael Courtney

Quoted: Drawing the gun has two potential purposes: 1) Communicating that you are armed and prepared to use a greater level of force. 2) Shortening the time delay before applying deadly force should it become necessary. It is wrong to suggest that brandishing a firearm is univerally illegal.  Many states permit the use of reasonable force to prevent property crimes and physical attacks that do not justify deadly force.  Drawing a gun can be considered "reasonable" force necessary to prevent property crimes and physical attacks in many situations. It is also extremely unwise to always wait until it's necessary to apply deadly force before drawing.  One example is the use of a saferoom during a suspected break-in.  A very good and often recommended home security plan is to get everyone into the safe room and cover the door with a gun.  Certainly no one recommends waiting until the door is breached before drawing, but almost everyone recommends waiting until the door is breached before firing.   I assert that the optimal approach is to have one's gun in hand anytime a situation reaches condition orange.  The only exception is circumstances where visibly drawing a gun would necessarily be interpreted as an unwarranted and unjustified escalation in a situation where both the defender and the criminal have equal rights to be doing what they are doing up to that point.  However, in the case of an employee/business owner or a resident/homeowner defending the home turf against an outside agent, the defender has every right to draw a gun once the criminal intent of the outside agent is reasonably clear.  Of course, this action is going to fare better legally in states with some kind of castle doctrine and in areas where potential prosecutors and jurors have a strong sense of the castle doctrine when considering whether or not actions are reasonable. Michael Courtney

I disagree, Condition orange is an evaluation phase.  Condition red is the fight/flight or freeze phase.  It can be broke down into the force continuum so condition red is not always using lethal force.

A little snippet from Texas LAw


Texas Penal Code
§9.04.  Threats as justifiable force.

    The threat of force is justified when the use of force is
justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to
cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or
otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an
apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not
constitute the use of deadly force.

Texas has NO brandishing law.  

By reading the posts in this topic I know one thing for sure:  

If you are honestly asking "When is it OK to draw?" you need to put up your pistol and buy some pepper spray, or a body alarm, whistle or something cause you.......well you may not have the mental capacity to carry a firearm.

The way I take the question "When is it OK to draw?" sounds like you are just itching to have the chance.  When or if you shoot someone you more and likely will be in the wrong if you 'honestly' have to stop and wonder if it is "OK to draw."

Everyone in here wants to give his opinion when it is 'ok'.  Some are respectable some are stupid.  So let just keep it simple:

If, God forbid, you ever have to draw your weapon in defense of your life, family or home, you won't have time to worry if it is 'OK to draw' all you will know is it is time.

Stop trying to sound like fricking lawyers guys.  Want to worry about something?  Can you put the bullets where they need to be?  and not into a 8 year old bystandard......... there is a law suit to talk about.  You going to carry a gun, you  better pratice pratice pratice.

Affirm?

Quoted: If you are honestly asking "When is it OK to draw?" you need to put up your pistol and buy some pepper spray, or a body alarm, whistle or something cause you.......well you may not have the mental capacity to carry a firearm.

I disagree with you.  Discussing the scenarios is healthy and thought provoking.  It is also good to understand the law so you will make wise decisions that will ultimately affect the rest of your life.

The way I take the question "When is it OK to draw?" sounds like you are just itching to have the chance.  When or if you shoot someone you more and likely will be in the wrong if you 'honestly' have to stop and wonder if it is "OK to draw."

That is ridiculous.  It is good to think anything out in advance.... that is a form of training.  That way you will respond, instead of react in a real situation.  Discussing the scenarios provides education.  I am sorry - you may have been born with self defense mechanisms... but you CERTAINLY were not born with an understanding of all the legal, phsychological, and moral issues surrounding drawing and firing your weapon at another human being.  

Everyone in here wants to give his opinion when it is 'ok'.  Some are respectable some are stupid.  So let just keep it simple: If, God forbid, you ever have to draw your weapon in defense of your life, family or home, you won't have time to worry if it is 'OK to draw' all you will know is it is time.

Again I disagree.  People pull their weapon all the time.... at the wrong time, and in the wrong place.  Sometimes they get away with it, sometimes they get arrested.  It happens every day.  People dont just "know" this stuff..... common sense is not always so common.  I think you drastically oversimplify the discussion.

Stop trying to sound like fricking lawyers guys.  Want to worry about something?  Can you put the bullets where they need to be?  and not into a 8 year old bystandard......... there is a law suit to talk about.  You going to carry a gun, you  better pratice pratice pratice. Affirm?

Nope... not at all.  People should understand the use of deadly force, and when it is justified.  The law is typically an excellent guide on when it should be excercised.  And a solid understanding of the legal ramifications surely cant hurt, can it?

Quoted: Quoted: If you are honestly asking "When is it OK to draw?" you need to put up your pistol and buy some pepper spray, or a body alarm, whistle or something cause you.......well you may not have the mental capacity to carry a firearm. I disagree with you.  Discussing the scenarios is healthy and thought provoking.  It is also good to understand the law so you will make wise decisions that will ultimately affect the rest of your life. The way I take the question "When is it OK to draw?" sounds like you are just itching to have the chance.  When or if you shoot someone you more and likely will be in the wrong if you 'honestly' have to stop and wonder if it is "OK to draw." That is ridiculous.  It is good to think anything out in advance.... that is a form of training.  That way you will respond, instead of react in a real situation.  Discussing the scenarios provides education.  I am sorry - you may have been born with self defense mechanisms... but you CERTAINLY were not born with an understanding of all the legal, phsychological, and moral issues surrounding drawing and firing your weapon at another human being.  h=85%

Everyone in here wants to give his opinion when it is 'ok'.  Some are respectable some are stupid.  So let just keep it simple: If, God forbid, you ever have to draw your weapon in defense of your life, family or home, you won't have time to worry if it is 'OK to draw' all you will know is it is time.[/quote] Again I disagree.  People pull their weapon all the time.... at the wrong time, and in the wrong place.  Sometimes they get away with it, sometimes they get arrested.  It happens every day.  People dont just "know" this stuff..... common sense is not always so common.  I think you drastically oversimplify the discussion. Stop trying to sound like fricking lawyers guys.  Want to worry about something?  Can you put the bullets where they need to be?  and not into a 8 year old bystandard......... there is a law suit to talk about.  You going to carry a gun, you  better pratice pratice pratice. Affirm?

Nope... not at all.  People should understand the use of deadly force, and when it is justified.  The law is typically an excellent guide on when it should be excercised.  And a solid understanding of the legal ramifications surely cant hurt, can it?

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