Lets see if I can do this short while giving enough details .

I attend a pretty small church.  About 70 or so on Sundays.  Well last Sunday we had a "visitor" during Sunday School before the service.  One of the elders noticed him riding his bike in the parking lot.  Well that Elder went upstairs to see what the deal was and this "visitor" was in the building nearing the office.  When the elder confronted him he said he was looking for the Bathroom.  The "Visitor" then attended the rest of the Sunday School.  After Sunday School before service he had a good story (of course) about needing money and was looking for some.  The pastor gave him 19 dollars and he left.  

Well, Wednesday we have AWANA (Childrens fun and bible study thing) and this "Visitor" showed up again.  This time he showed up in a SUV, and the same elder that confronted him last time saw this person talking to the SUV.  It appeared as if he was being dropped off by someone.  Well after a few minutes this elder again said hello and what was going on and of course this guy was buddy buddy with him.  The SUV left and this guy stayed and repeated the same story wanting a handout.  This time he was reluctant to leave after the Pastor told him it was time to go.  Said he had bad knees and couldn't walk anywhere.  

Now, keep in mind, this guy wasn't dirty, and didn't look like a bum.  I didn't talk to him but he really didn't "look" like he was a problem.  He did look like he was in good shape though.  

Anyways......  since this guy was not really wanting to leave, the elder I've been talking about offered to drive him to to the bus station, as this was part of his story was needing to take the bus to see his "nephew" in the hospital.  Well, the visitor wanted to stop at a place to get a duffle bag.   Side note, the other elder rode with on this trip and they both carry.  One was driving and the other behind him in the back seat.  

So they make this stop, and the "visitor" comes back without the bag.  And they asked him whats up and he said it wasn't there but to keep going to the bus station.  Well, right as they start to leave, 4 police cars pulled them over and pretty much yanked the "visitor" out of the car as soon as the elder unlocked the doors.  They of course got the two elders' statements and it was all good.  But they were actually staking out a few houses that this "visitor" was known to frequent because he had a warrant for his arrest and an apparent wrap sheet.  They shared a few of the things this guy did with the elders and one of them was assault and battery.  

So.......    I'm not sure what exactly what I'm saying other than be vigilant guys.   I failed to see this guy as a threat and it was a wake up call for me.  In my defense I teach my classes in a back room and I didn't see much of all this going on.  I did know that he was there both Sunday and Wednesday asking for money and that was a red flag.   But I didn't know about how he got there and other details.  HOWEVER, I failed to see this guy as a threat and problem and in the back of my mind was just thinking "mooch" and I should've been more concerned with what was going on with him.  I was so caught up in my job at church,  Plus I probably didn't want to be racist and jump to conclusions, as this "visitor" was a different race than most of the congregation.  

But if something is out of place, don't overlook it.  My situational awareness sucked in this case.  And I'm openly admitting to it.  I'm thankful the other 2 guys were on top of it and handled it as best they could.  They could've maybe handled it differently and called the police from church, but in the end they basically helped get a bad guy apprehended.  

So I learned a few things.  And our church needs to probably have better policies and procedures in place for possible people issues.  We're so small we don't have a "security team" per se.  We have 4 guys that carry all the time.  Well, 3 of us do.  Me and those 2 elders.  I'm a deacon.  I know of another guy that carries regularly but he's a busy guy who owns a restaurant and he's not always there.   A 5th guy has had his concealed carry license but never carries.  Well, he's going to start now.  

For me it also brings up gear questions as I am lightly armed.  I figure my J frame that goes with me everywhere is better than not carrying at all.  We live in a pretty safe place.  But I think at church I need to change it up.   And that's hard for me.  For my first few years I always carried at 4 oclock. A few different guns but always in that spot.  Then a year ago or so I changed to AIWB with my J frame and I like that.  It's fast,  It's convenient, it's comfortable.  But I do feel like there are times I need more.   But I can't really carry much bigger guns AIWB.  Most of my other guns will have to go back at 4 oclock.  I suppose I could carry in both places.  Therefore if my subconscious goes for the old spot at 4 oclock, I could have a gun there and if it goes for AIWB I could have my J frame.  

I hate changing like that on a regular basis because I think that could really mess me up in a stress situation.........

I think I'd be content with 2 j frames.  But I only have 1.  My next smallest gun is a G26.  Today for church band practice I carried my HiPower at 4 oclock in an OWB (first time for OWB).  But my j frame was in my backpack.  

Anyways.......  

Any comments are welcomed if they are meant to be helpful.   And hopefully it's a good reminder to you all.  Not that we don't have enough of those.  Like some guy shooting up a church.  I don't watch the news but my wife told me about some guy shooting up a church somewhere.   People......  what are you going to do with them?  I think churches are especially vulnerable because were there to help people commune with God.  And are open to sharing our worship.  So bad people are going to take advantage of that.  Like about a year ago someone broke into our tool shed and stole some things.  I mean, who steals from a church?  Someone really messed up in the head.   God will have his vengeance.  But I'm going to keep trying to sharpen my sword until he returns.

I think your elders did a pretty good job walking the line between trying to be helpful, decent human beings and keeping the church secure.

On a side note, I like your choice in handguns!  J-frames and Hi-Powers, nice and old school....

ETA:  I'm an elder myself, in an area that sounds a little more urban than yours.  I rarely carry  I need to work on that....

I think your elders were perfect. Some might second guess -- not me.  I always carry at church.

Yeah, we had a board meeting Friday night and one of the deacons said they shouldn't have taken him and should've called the police at the church and they went over and above the call of duty were his words.  But it's easy to armchair that whole deal.  I was just irritated with myself for not recognizing what was going on and how serious it could've been.  I, hopefully, would've been prepared to react if something happened in the church, but they were right in getting him out of there.  I mean it was during a children's event and if something went down there and then, it would've been particularly bad.

The one deacons comments were annoying.  He doesn't even carry.  But I think he thinks of himself as some kind of expert cuz he lives closer in the city and his daughter is a police officer.  Yet he wasn't even there at the time.  Anyways....  I shouldn't be badmouthing him.  He's a nice guy.  I think he just didn't think about how that would come across.



But this whole thing makes me think about what's that saying that I think I've heard Marines say?   Something like:  "Be polite and courteous, be professional.   And have a plan to kill anyone you meet?"   Something like that.

I agree that maybe they shouldn't have transported him anywhere.  But, they made up for it by being armed and having one of them in the back seat.  Hence, I cannot criticize -- especially since they were trying to a charitable Christian deed.  After all, charity is pure religion if I remember my New Testament correctly.

Yeah, old skool.  I do have a G26 but I prefer the HiPower.   I'm a fan of the late Stephen Camp's teachings and choices.  However, I think I'd like a G43 or something to go 4 oclock and keep my j frame AIWB.   The 26 is kind of bulky.  

Yeah, that's part of the reason it makes that job particularly hard.  We are looking to add people to church.  Not send them to jail.    But of course if they deserve jail, then that's where they should go.  Ugh.  What a mess.  People.

There is no perfect answer.  I am on the church security team but haven't had to deal with anything unusual.  We are volunteers -- not professional security by any means. I'm not sure we would be as "charitable" as your guys were -- and I say this as a compliment.  

I hope I don't have to find out.

Everyone's a threat until they prove otherwise.
He was given cash that was a bad idea. Now he will come back when he is out next looking for a handout.
   More importantly for your church it needs to be known if gunfire starts EVERYONE unarmed needs to try to melt into the floor so those that are armed can fight effectively. You also need to figure out who else is armed so you don't shoot someone who produces a weapon but you may not recognize well.

Good luck with that in any but the smallest congregations.  I agree though this would be a risk if folks don't know each other well.  I also serve as an usher so I have a pretty good idea who attends.  But, we have 400 in a given service so I can't see everyone.  


I can only imagine some of the old boys that carry in our church.  

"Be polite, be professional but have a plan to kill everyone you meet." General Mattis.

I think your elders did a good job.

Try a jmcustom aiwb 2.0 for your g26. Get it with an extra tuck.

That's 10 RDS, double the .38. and a 17 Rd reload.

That's 27 RDS that I bet you could get off faster and more accurate than 15 rounds from the snub.

Even a g43, kahr, shield,etc would triple your fire power. You really just need a good holster

I'm a retired high school teacher, and served on the school's emergency management and safety committees... one issue we always faced was the lack of portable radios when we were outside in the parking lot or student commons area... something you might think about addressing... with a shoulder strap and ear bud it would keep all of your security team informed of potential situations...

Good point.  Our volunteer team has radios.  It really helps.

I like 'em!  I need to find myself a nice Hi-Power...

Here's an article about the dude.  No mention of our own church's help in apprehending him.  Would've been nice.  But he's been stealing from other churches too.  I prayed for this guy tonight but I didn't pray for mercy.  

Another point, drugs.  BAD.  No good.  Not the first time I know of people being so addicted to cocaine they'd steal from their own families to help fund that addiction.  Man.

http://journaltimes.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/article_0187595a-4b36-5463-abc6-ba25d9b339da.html

Half my PT's are in detox, mostly from opioids. Drugs are such a bane on society it's a shame.  I wish there was a better way to handle addiction.

about to roll out the door with a p229 with 9 18 round mags and a backup P220 with 8 10 round mags.
the Lord is my shepherd, I am but one of his sheep dogs

Tell us more about what radios, ear buds, and about this shoulder strap. How do you do push to talk in order to transmit?

Church in Mogadishu?

I rarely go to church.  Maybe I'll bring my 42 when i do.  Or, you know, my Garand and a bandoleer.




OP, ditch the wheel gun, of have a secondary.   6 rounds isn't a whole heck of a lot, especially if a pair walks in. Agree you need a better holster to carry something bigger.  And a Glock 26 is probably less wide and tall than a revolver.

Do you wear a vest as well?  

I honestly don't know what to think about your go to church load out -- except to say WOW.  

one of the pastors did ask if I would bring my suppressed 6.8 SBR. keep in mind this is in the same state where one lone muslim killed 49 and wounded 53 in a gay nightclub. Bad things happen in nice places, you just need several plans to avoid trouble 

You make me feel unprepared carrying my Sig 938 with one spare mag.

You mentioned a G43 and appendix carry already being comfortable.  You need that exact setup.  Add some HYVE or Taran Tactical extensions and you have a 8+1.  go with ETS mafs and you can go up to a 12+1 with no extensions.  


Love my little g43.  


Unfortunately churches are always targets for bad guys.  They dont have to shoot up the place to ruin the vibe.

What I was saying is I carry my 442 and I was thinking a G43 at 4 o'clock along with that would be sweet.    But you're right, I think in theory the G43 is a really good size for a carry gun.  And acceptable capacity for things other than going to war.  I don't know.  Seems like a good balance between size and firepower for us normal guys.  One of the elders mentioned, that's what he carries.  In fact I think he bought the G43 with the money he got from me when I bought his G26......  

Ah, no.  If there is any point wider, it's the cylinder, but it's only a small portion of the gun in comparison.  That thing feels about like toting around 1/2 of a G26.  And it's pretty much way thinner in most places.   Now, is comfort the most important thing?  No.  But for most of my daily duties, I'm alright with just carrying that and 15 extra rounds.  It is not ideal firepower.  But it's ever present.  Actually, today I wore it as a BUG for the first time in my front right pocket and my G26 at 4 Oclock.  That wasn't a bad set up.  I had 30 rounds on my person within 2 guns.  20 9mm 10 .38.  I really do like the idea of having a second gun.  Murphy and all.  

I need a better pocket holster though.  I was using an uncle mikes IWB holster.  LOL.  I probably didn't NEED a holster at all, but I play bass in church and it just made me more comfortable to know the trigger guard was covered up.

Yeah, I'm sorry to hear that.  Life is rough sometimes and I understand.  I've got a buddy I went to high school with that is an alcoholic and it's pretty rough for him.  It nearly broke up his marriage and all that.  But She was very gracious.  Because he has / had a difficult time staying away from it.  And it all started with anxiety and not being able to sleep.  I've dealt a little bit with that too.  

I know soldiers have it rough.  But even normal people have crazy crap happen to them that is just hard to reconcile.  Check this out, this guy, he had a get a way weekend with his Mom and Dad right before he got married.  So it was like him and his fiance, his mom and Dad and I think his sister and her husband.  They went horse back riding.  His Mom fell off a horse and broke her leg.  His Dad, rushed to her aid, and I guess because of the excitement and maybe an issue that was lurking for longer, had a heart attack and died.  So something that was meant to be a start of a beautiful thing ended up a, pardon my french, big shit sandwich.  I don't think he ever got over that.  

And then like 10 years later in the prime of his career he started having anxiety attacks bad and couldn't sleep.  And for lack of a better fix, starting drinking.  I'm not making excuses, I'm just saying......  Life, is no picnic sometimes and I understand.  

BTW, what's a PT?

I also highly recommend a TLR-6.  Not a fan of lasers on everything but in a crowded place like a chrurch it could make a big difference.  


Not mine but close to my set up

Traveler...just standard Motorola hand held on whatever freq they were assigned... I used a single ear bud that allowed you to hear above the noise of 800 to 900 kids at one time in the cafeteria or commons area, as well as keep the communication somewhat secure... the shoulder strap was just a nylon double ended clip that attached to the "D" rings on the leather cases... you still had the standard the push to talk requirement, but allowed you to have your hands free at other times

when we changed the switchboard/classroom phone system, I tried to get them to adopt something similar to a Siemens 2.7gHz portable handset with classroom base system that had range that would have covered the city block we covered, as well as having an "all call" feature, where any hand held could make a broadcast to all other phones... it would have been very useful for building evacuations... both scheduled and not scheduled...during one 3 1/2 hour building evacuation, as soon as the TV helicopter appeared on the news over our school, both our front desk system, and the county's 911 system was made useless

I wanted one for my G26. but I didn't like how far the button was and activating with your trigger finger might be a no go.  I know you can do it with your support hand though.  It might be a different story on the 43.

PT = patient. I'm working at a psychiatric hospital now. We deal a lot with addiction.

We're all one crisis away from a mental break. Some are more resilient than others but it's possible for all of us.

Amen.

On another note, I picked up a tip from here today that has me liking the 26 even more now.  But it's a matter of finding more clothes options for cooler weather.   Plus I should just get a real OWB holster.  But I saw someone on here state he uses his IWB holster by just wrapping the belt around the outside of the holster.  I'm not sure why I didn't think of it earlier.  I already do that with my OWB galco holster for the HiPower.  

There's no doubt OWB'ing is more comfortable.  But it's a matter of keeping the muzzle covered with the right shirts.   And there again, back to 4 oclock.  I think I just need to get used to my guns are going to be in different places.  I don't really like that cuz I feel like I do better when I keep things simple.   Like with my grip.  That's another area.  Ever since I started shooting revolvers, AND when I started shooting my HiPower, I went to a low thumbs hold.  I know it might give you a bit less control than  high thumbs, but on the Hipower you're not going to hit the slide stop.  ON a revolver it's crucial.  And then I seem to shoot other guns just fine like that.  And my XD and Glocks have the spot for your strong hand thumb to fall into.  

But to be sure, if I switch from shooting Revolvers to Autos and try to do high thumbs with the pistols, I almost always do my thumbs like a revolver and it's hard to break that habit.  On the G26, it shortens up the real estate you have for your left hand to grip on to.  But I think I can still make it work.

Actually, I think I might have found a solution to my problem.  Overcome my fears about carrying a Glock AIWB.....  I'm going to try my 26 there today.  I really like the 442 there.  It's fast and convenient.  But I've always been leary of carrying a striker gun there.  I think I would prefer a DA/SA or DAO pistol for this type of carry.  And a single stack, but this will do for now.  

What was this thing about a backplate that acts as a safety when holstering?

I carry a G19 AIWB about 90% of the time and a jframe the other 10% (also AIWB). The Glock 19 is safe to Holster there as long as you insure everything is clear in the trigger guard. Look up training videos on it too.

Revolvers have their place... Most auto pistols are all but useless in contact distance merge.  I can press a revolver against an object and fire an auto not so much if it pushes it out of battery.

I use one. I've always covered the hammer on hammer fired guns so there was no learning curve.

SCD thread

Link to device

How often do you actually carry? Those guns look new.

I'll +1 the JMCK AIWB holster.  I carry a P30 or G19 in mine.

Aaaaaah, every day for the last 3 years?  But I don't carry the G26 that much.  I carried it for about 6 months and I mostly carry the 442.  I carried a DS before that.

I'm sorry they don't look beat to death for you and for me to look all commando.  I shoot them too.  pretty regularly.  Not as much as some but way more than others.  I go once a month and the 442 always gets shot.  Sometimes a lot, sometimes a little.  

Does holster wear pass muster with you?



So many critics and experts round here.     We can't all be John Wayne / Chuck Norris I guess.  Some of us are just normal people.  

Actually the G26 has a good amount of wear near the muzzle.  But it wasn't from me.    But obviously you can't see that from this end.  

Wisconsin has not had legal carry for as long as some other states.

I'm old school and always wear a suit or sport coat to Sunday morning services.  This enables me to carry my full size CZ-85 in an OWB with 2 spare mags.  For other times at church when I'm not in dress clothes, I have my Kahr CW9 in an OWB with 2spare mags under a loose fitting shirt.  We're supposed to help those in need,,,, but not let them endanger our family or church family.
God bless and stay vigilant.

The only safe place is heaven.

Make sure you make it there as late as possible.

With that said, carry whatever you want as if you were foing to war/combat.

If you think combat starts when you draw, imo, you're already to late.

I'll start looking at them but do you have a recommendation as to where to buy them?  And do you know the model number of the ones you use?  Plus the ear buds?  I'm starting to search this out now.  This was a good suggestion and thank you!!!

I think he's using commercial licensed radios. And if you don't have a very large church it will be too expensive to go that way.

If I were you, I'd look at FRS (Family Radio Service). They are unlicensed and inexpensive. Then I would go on Ebay and find some ear buds for whatever radio I was considering. If I couldn't find earbuds for the radio I wanted, I'd keep looking at other radios until I found one.

Heck, just for grins I did a search on eBay for "frs ear buds". Here is the first response:

Motorola FRS ear bud

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Earphone-Ear-bud-Speaker-Mic-For-MOTOROLA-Talk-About-2-Way-FRS-GMRS-Radios-1-pin-/181155046272?hash=item2a2daea380:g:rukAAOxyf~hRyluV

But I don't like this one. I would want a cool coil cord. So then I found this...

Cool coil cord earbud with 2.5mm jack

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Surveillance-Acoustic-Tube-Earpiece-Hands-Free-Earphone-Headset-for-2-Way-Radio/263095778340?_trkparms=aid%3D555018%26algo%3DPL.SIM%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D41376%26meid%3Dd721fe6ca4104f09af594367a7e08eea%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D122729792518&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

Now all you need to do is find an FRS radio with a 2.5mm headphone jack....

Edit: Found the links don't work. Arfcom is doing something weird, so I copied the url in as a not hot-link. Hope you can get the links to work...

JJREA sorry, don't remember the number (I've been retired 9 years) but they were probably in the 3 to 5 watt range as we could talk to another school when standing on top row of our football stadium,  about 2 1/2 miles... unit was re charged in a dock ...  IIRC about $300 each

the earbud was just a cheap WalMart set I bought for my use, same with the strap which came off a small camera case

as Traveler commented, the FRS is probably a good idea if they work inside your church's structure...

The last two churches my wife has attended are sort of "out in the country".

They lock the doors before services start.

They have "security teams" that monitor the door, insure anyone wanting in/out during services is watched/covered and the doors locked again once they are in/out.

Better to be ready and have nothing ever happen, than to be complacent and some day pay the price.