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Posted: 9/4/2010 7:51:12 PM EDT
I've looked over some FNH and Sig Sauer's that I liked a lot but they were a little pricey.
Link Posted: 9/4/2010 8:03:58 PM EDT
M&P 45C
Link Posted: 9/4/2010 10:08:25 PM EDT
Does price matter?

There are sooo many different .45s out there ranging from a couple bills to like 3 grand.

I have Kahr CW45 and like it for CCW. I used to have a Sig P245, and didn't like it. They have a lot in common, but usually it's the little things that sell you on a particular gun.

Go finger as many as possible at the next Indy1500, and then choose. BTW, if you have never been to that show, it's amazing.


Link Posted: 9/4/2010 10:20:30 PM EDT
Do not look at price when it comes to lifesaving equipment. When you need the thing you are not going to be thinking about how good a deal you got on it.

I like the feel of the M&P 45 and it seems like it would be a better carry option than the Sigs or FNH's that I have seen. Also consider the G30sf or a good 1911.

I do have to ask, why the .45? That caliber choice limits the platforms and configurations available to you for a marginal or even non-existant ballistic edge. If that is what you are most comfortable with then cool, but I would hate for you to limit yourself because of some mythical notion of .45 being a death ray. I am not intending to be critical, just objective.

Anyhow, welcome to the forum and good luck in your search.
Link Posted: 9/4/2010 10:31:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/4/2010 10:32:19 PM EDT by 0311Hoosier]

Originally Posted By yekimak:
Do not look at price when it comes to lifesaving equipment. When you need the thing you are not going to be thinking about how good a deal you got on it.

I like the feel of the M&P 45 and it seems like it would be a better carry option than the Sigs or FNH's that I have seen. Also consider the G30sf or a good 1911.

I do have to ask, why the .45? That caliber choice limits the platforms and configurations available to you for a marginal or even non-existant ballistic edge. If that is what you are most comfortable with then cool, but I would hate for you to limit yourself because of some mythical notion of .45 being a death ray. I am not intending to be critical, just objective.

Anyhow, welcome to the forum and good luck in your search.

Price IS a concern for most people, and plenty of cheap guns work just as well as thousand dollar guns. I was merely trying to ascertain his price range.

Which of the guns you mention do you own, and what do you carry? It's relevant to the thread.
Link Posted: 9/4/2010 11:44:35 PM EDT
I run a gun store. AO1911, p220, g21 I have all owned and carried. The others handled. I carry a G17 most of the time now.

Yes, price is a concern but it shouldn't not be a huge deciding factor or else we'd all be carrying HIPoints. People want to say they got a good deal.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 8:33:24 AM EDT
Originally Posted By anjan9:
M&P 45C


This.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 9:48:22 AM EDT
HK45C.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 10:21:46 AM EDT
Here's a pretty good article comparing three excellent .45's:

Battle of the Plastic .45's

I recently had the opportunity to shoot some of the front runners in the current crop of fantastic plastic .45 ACP service pistols in a side by side test. While very subjective and relatively informal, this testing proved quite informative. All firing was performed at 7 yards on three IDPA type targets evenly spaced apart about 1 meter center to center. The other shooter, David, was of similar skill and experience level - he's a buddy who is a SWAT operator, firearms instructor, and anavid IDPA Master Class shooter.
The pistols tested were the HK45 full size in Variant 1 configuration (cocked & locked, with decock capability), Glock 21, and S&W M&P .45 4" with thumb safety. We would run each string once or twice with one pistol, then either alternate shooters or switch guns. Strings of fire included two on each target, failure drills (2 body, 1 head), strong hand only 2 on each target, and two body on each then one head on each. All ammunition was Winchester Q4170 ball fed from the factory magazines. Due to the issues with juggling holsters and mag pouches, we did not perform any reloads or draws for the protocol. All firing was initiated from the high ready.

Each of the review sections refers to the guns "tracking", so I want to make sure we are all on the same page as far as what we're talking about. Tracking primarily refers to the gun's characteristics when moving in recoil, which has significant effects on sight recovery. The shooter's physical characteristics and mechanical capability also affect tracking, but each gun also has particular traits that it imparts to the experience. Tracking can also refer peripherally to the ability to drive the gun between targets in recoil, as the gun's recovery in recoil in conjunction with its overall pointability and muzzle balance have a profound effect on this. My buddy David and I rate guns critically on their tracking and ergonomics, as these two sets of characteristics have the most significant effects on the utility of a gun.


Glock 21
The Glock 21 wore a 10-8 .140" rear notch sight with a .215" trititum front and was otherwise stock. This was one of my buddy's IDPA guns and the stock trigger was quite smooth from countless rounds. The reset was positive as with all Glocks. He has larger hands than I do and did not have issues with the gun's grip circumference. I wear a size 8 flight glove and I immediately noted how thick and wide the grip felt. The Glock was the only one of the test guns which held more than 10 rounds in the magazine. I wonder how the gun would feel if it had been made with a 10 round magazine instead of 13. Despite the huge feel in the hand, I was able to shoot the gun well in the testing. I would expect that the size would come into play during the drawstroke as well as manipulations such as hand transfers and reloading.

Overall the gun behaved as most Glocks, and tracked well in recoil, returning positively to a neutral position after firing. The recoil impulse was soft, but sometimes exhibited a loose mechanical feel much like the impulse of an AK-47 where you can feel the parts moving around in recoil. The gun behaved quite differently when it was fully loaded than when it was almost empty. The difference in the felt recoil and speed in tracking was significant - the gun moved more sharply when empty and more slowly/softly when fully loaded.


HK45
The HK45 tested was bone stock and featured the Variant 1 configuration, which permits cocked & locked carry with a decocking capability if you press the safety down past "Fire." The overall feel of the pistol gained positive marks from all who handled it, and it does feel good in the hand. The single action trigger was very good, but no one volunteered to shoot it DA/SA as the DA pull was quite long and heavy. All test firing was done in single action only. The overall trigger movement was a bit long in that the trigger had to be let out most of the way for the reset, but it did not cause any issues in live fire.

The litmus test of course was live fire, and this is where the HK45 really got interesting. Its high bore axis made for a detached feel in regards to pointability and created a rather pronounced muzzle flip. The muzzle flip was such that shooters remarked that they were "spectators" in the gun's recoil recovery, and that you had to put it back rather than it returning on its own. I likened it to holding on to a pogo stick. It wasn't that the recoil was violent - the straight back recoil was quite soft, but that the muzzle bounced around a lot. After rising and then falling in recoil, the muzzle bounced around a bit prior to stopping at neutral. The gun was quite a chore to shoot one handed in any type of hurry, as the muzzle simply did not want to return on its own.

The HK45 also has a few other issues of note. The Variant 1 decock/safety was often pushed down to the decock position (especially when shooting one handed), and required conscious effort not to decock the gun. If I wasn't careful, I could lock up the trigger trying to decock the hammer as I was pressing the trigger. There is a trough in trigger guard that the bottom of the trigger rides in, and this can abrade the trigger finger of some shooters. Of the three guns, it is the heaviest when empty. The gun's long magazines and unique mag catch design (the typical HK lever that needs to be pressed down to release the magazine) make reloading a bit more difficult. I ended up using my trigger finger to drop the mag as I can't reach it with my thumb. The length of the mags can make indexing them into the magazine well somewhat harder to make repeatable.

The HK45 wasn't all bad news, as its saving grace was its exceptional inherent accuracy and how easy it was for shooters to exploit that right away. The barrel uses the same rubber O-ring setup seen on other HK pistols, and it blows my mind that a plastic service pistol with a rubber ring on its drop-in barrel can outshoot a lot of custom 1911s. The magazines were easy to fill, and feature an excellent corrosion resistant finish.


S&W M&P45, 4"
The last gun has already been reviewed in great detail in a previous newsletter (CLICK HERE TO READ THE REVIEW), and it is likely no surprise that it fared very well in this comparison. Of the three guns, it was the lightest and most ergonomic. It was the snappiest in recoil, but it tracked extremely well and returned sharply. I likened the M&P's tracking to watching the Glock 21 in fast motion. Once it came down out of recoil, it stopped moving. Period. It was an interesting contrast going between this gun and the HK. The low bore line and light weight made the gun extremely quick to move between targets. When transitioning between the different pistols, I found that the M&P sometimes returned before I was ready to shoot.

The Achilles heel of the gun is its gritty trigger with indistinct reset. For dedicated individual users, this is easily remedied with a trip to David Bowie's shop. Each generation of the M&P has had improvements in the triggers, and it is my hope that the maturation of the platform brings a consistent out of the box trigger. The other main issue is the magazines, which rust quite easily. All of my dull blue mags were speckled and brown or orange. This is with routine handling and even spraying or wiping with Shooter's Choice Rust Prevent. As I've noted before, bluing is a lousy finish for a service weapon, particularly in the humid climate like that of South Florida. S&W is phasing in a grey electroless nickel looking finish for the .45 magazines, and a black spray on polymer coating in the 9/.40 magazines. In my experience with all the generations of magazines, these new finishes resolve the fuzzy brown mag problem.

Overall Impressions:
After finishing the shooting, I came up with a few "big picture" impressions of each gun.

The Glock 21 is a big, thick gun that is soft in recoil, tracks well, and benefits from the classic consistent Glock trigger with positive reset. It is a solid performer, if it fits your hand, which is a critical caveat. For me, the weight and size were very much of a deal breaker.

The HK45 has good overall ergonomics and it is very easy to exploit its inherent accuracy. Most shooters who picked it up were able to print excellent groups with it right away. It simultaneously bugs and amazes me that a plastic gun with a rubber O-ring around the end of a drop-in barrel can shoot as well as many hand fit custom 1911s. The Variant 1 decock/safety and weird mag catch make for challenging manual of arms. If I could, I would lose the decock function by going to the Variant 9 if/when the parts become available. Users may also want to take a hard look at the LEM trigger module. The high bore axis makes the gun point in a somewhat detached manner and recoil recovery is a bit of a chore. The gun is big and relatively heavy, so handling and carry can be an issue for smaller users. It is pushing the maximum size for an exposed carry duty gun. The upside, and it is a big one, is that this big gun boasts the famous HK reliability and performance.

The M&P45 is lightweight and exudes excellent ergonomics. It is hands down the most comfortable of the three guns tested. Its trigger is useable but most specimens could benefit from some work. It is snappy in recoil but extremely fast returning on target. The low bore axis in combination with fast tracking made this a very shootable setup. For me, I feel that it is the clear winner with many positives overshadowing a relatively small and fully correctable gripe list.

Not surprisingly, the S&W was my overall pick after running the three. Its excellent ergonomics and tracking characteristics made it the best shooting and handling gun. The HK wins hands down in the accuracy and trigger categories, but is a harder gun to shoot for speed and multiple rounds. It has a high build quality as expected, and has the famous HK reliability. The Glock was predictably Glock-like, and is a very functional gun as long as it fits your hand. I would characterize the 21 as the most "middle of the road" gun in that it did not have severe deficits or benefits over the other two guns in most categories (other than size). The durability/longevity record of the Glock 21 is somewhat mixed. The HK45 and M&P45 are both still too new to have full track record, but I hope for good things.

Anyone looking for a pistol for uniform patrol or tactical team use would do well with any of the three guns tested. However, the size and weight of the HK and Glock would limit their utility for plainclothes use for some personnel. Here is where the M&P would shine. Conversely, the M&P works fine in the other roles too, making it the most versatile of the three. I hope that this little shooting test gives folks some food for thought and is of value in making the right choice in a service pistol.


Good Hunting.
Hilton Yam
10-8 Performance
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 11:03:34 AM EDT
Whatever you do, don't buy a hi-point....

Let us know what you decide on!
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 11:38:13 AM EDT
I like my G36 and my Springfield Champion. Got a weak spot for Para CCO too, but don't have one in the gun safe at this time. They ain't giving any of the way, but they don't exactly break the bank either.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 11:45:52 AM EDT
Sig P220 Compact
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 12:26:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/5/2010 12:34:42 PM EDT by AzB]
Here's an interesting video:

FNP45 vs. HK 45

Az
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 12:46:30 PM EDT
I like 1911's, I carry a Kimber Pro Carry. Love it. But whatever you get, practice with it, a lot.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 3:22:41 PM EDT
I carry a G21 with a TLR-1 in a Raven Consealment holster with a spare mag on my weak side. I'm tall but not a huge guy. 6'3" 195-200lbs. I wear the holster IWB and the mag pou h OWB right in front of my iPhone.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 8:27:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 0311Hoosier:
Whatever you do, don't buy a hi-point....

Let us know what you decide on!


Definitely NO HI POINTS!!!!! They are only good as paper weights, or as a throw down
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 9:05:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By anjan9:
M&P 45C

Yes! M&P 45C is an outstanding carry gun.


Link Posted: 9/6/2010 7:22:22 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AEnemaBay:
Originally Posted By anjan9:
M&P 45C


This.


This
Link Posted: 9/6/2010 7:49:14 PM EDT
My vote goes for Glock 30SF or M&P 45C both excellent pistols.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 5:24:16 AM EDT
GLOCK 36
Kahr P45/PM45
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 7:59:06 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EdgecrusherXES_45:
My vote goes for Glock 30SF or M&P 45C both excellent pistols.


...or 36.

Link Posted: 9/10/2010 5:03:46 PM EDT
I've been carrying a Springfield XD service 4" .45ACP for years, and recently swapped out for a FN-45. I am a larger guy 5'9" 235lbs so I can freely carry these full size guns easily, However, I am also beginning to convert to strict open carry on my main gun while keeping the other two concealed.
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