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Posted: 10/13/2003 10:44:07 AM EDT
Figured this may help someone...

http://www.gunsnstuff.net/p/023f.html

Galil US made milled receivers $299.99

Link Posted: 10/13/2003 10:59:23 AM EDT
Hesse.

Scary stuff.
Link Posted: 10/13/2003 1:00:53 PM EDT
C'mon, Lumpy. Don't judge it until you've had actual experience with one. I am not a Hesse defender, but I do have two of his receivers (the other is the gen 2 stainless FAL) and I have had absolutely zero problems. I got the Galil/Hegal receiver back when they came with the trigger/mag release installed and were only $199. I have loved it. I got a little help barrelling it (see my post in the sticky section) 'cause it was my first AK. It is holding up very well with no signs of battering, etc. And that's with cheap Russian ammo.

The only problem is that FAC advertises them, but never has them in stock.
Link Posted: 10/13/2003 1:04:55 PM EDT
Sorry, Im a Galil snob.

If I were in the market to build one, I MIGHT consider the Hesse reciever, but I wouldnt buy it without inspecting it first.
Link Posted: 10/13/2003 2:49:44 PM EDT
Hesse is not shipping any recievers.
Link Posted: 10/14/2003 5:26:46 AM EDT
Why did Hesse get a bad rap? Its like every catalog that i look at has rifles being build on Hesse receivers, 1919 A4, Ak's, FAL's, Galil's...Now im seeing Vulcan labels...is this Hesse?

What about CNC receivers for the Galil any good or another knock-off?
Link Posted: 10/14/2003 8:30:38 AM EDT
Hesse got a bad rap because (a) their original FAL receivers were way out of spec, and (b) their customer service is non-exitent.

The original FAL receivers were so bad that some of them were expensive paperweights. And on all their products, you pays your money and you takes your chances. Their complete guns are notorious for not working or needing rebuilding by a competent gunsmith, but there is no warranty or guarantee whatsoever.

All that being said, Robert Hesse is probably singlehandedly responsible for the popularity of the FAL kitbuilding craze of the '90s. He was first out with a receiver when nobody else would touch it. And his receivers in general (other than the early FAL) are pretty decent.

I like Lumpy. He's honest. And it is a free country, so he can be a snob if he wants to be and I don't hold it against him. ;) But for Galils, the Hesse is your best bet right now.
Link Posted: 10/16/2003 2:59:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/16/2003 2:59:38 AM EDT by Ross]
So who has Galil recievers, and what type/makers? It's been gnawing at me to build a Galil for a while now, and while I have several other things that need building first, I may have to put one of these together.

Ross
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 12:20:49 PM EDT
I have a Galil kit, but no receiver like a lot of other readers. Since I don't hear good things
about Hesse, I am sitting on my kit waiting for an alternative.

I keep hoping Firing Line will come out with a Galil receiver. They already make an underfolder milled AK receiver, a Galil can only be a few CNC program lines different! Maybe if everyone on the board would email them (I have)they would give it a try!
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 1:26:00 PM EDT
Uh - Robert Hesse didn't single handedly do jack shit. DSA, Entre'prise, and Armscorp were all making US receivers while he was still grinding off proofmarks.

Vulcan IS Hesse. An the CAI FAL receivers have "interesting" markings when compared to a Hesse. Looks like CAI bought the Hesse moulds and inserted a new name plate over the Hesse markings.

His FALs ARs AKs and .50s are garbage. Every single part he made for the fal from pisol grips to handguards has been garbage. I have not built on his Galil receivers. They may be the best ever made - but with his sorry reputation (confirmed by my own experiences) for quality and complete lack of post-sale support on his out-of-spec junk, I don't see any point in trying it out.

The only thing Hesse did well was target a section of the gun-buyer population that thinks only of price.

Link Posted: 10/21/2003 6:44:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Gunplumber:
Uh - Robert Hesse didn't single handedly do jack shit. DSA, Entre'prise, and Armscorp were all making US receivers while he was still grinding off proofmarks.



And he outsold all of them put together three to one in his heyday.

So I stand by my remarks. Popularizing isn't the same as manufacturing a high quality product - just look at Microsoft.

I don't make my living building guns like you do, so I, and others like me, can afford to waste our not-so-valuable time tinkering with Hesse stuff. I would never buy a complete gun made by Hesse, but after a few thousand rounds in guns that I built on his receivers, I have no complaints.

Hey, I even have some C.A.I. parts I am happy with. And I'm not alone.
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 10:24:04 PM EDT
>>He was first out with a receiver when nobody else would touch it.

Sorry - I misinterpretted the above sentence to be your assertion that Robert Hesse was the first to prduce a US made FAL receiver.

Sometimes I make the mistake of believing words have meaning.

Armscorp, Entreprise, and DSA had receivers long before Hesse (in that order), but I guess little things like chronology shouldn't interfere with a good post.

Link Posted: 10/22/2003 4:09:27 AM EDT
Ahh, you are correct and I stand corrected. Hesse was not the first to come out with a FAL receiver, although, with such a wonderful lead dispensing platform as the FAL, it is curious to me why the others did not aggressively market their products. Even a year after Hesse started production, I still remember thinking that the FAL was an oddity, and I passed on one of the Browning imports for $500 (and yes I am still kicking myself).

But back to the subject of the thread. I would like your opinion, Mark, on what it would take to produce a high-quality Galil receiver. How much would it cost to do, say, a run of 500, excluding development costs? What do you think the market is for them?

Personally, I think 500 would sell out in a couple of months, and if the AWB sunsets, 5000 might sell out in a few months. But I have nothing to base that on. How does one do market research for firearms? I don't think gunboards are a good measure, because they only attract the really hardcore aficianados, and we are not enough to sustain a market. Plus, the pricing issue looms large. The Vz-58 recievers are out now, but at $800 a pop, they are not exactly selling like hotcakes.

Hesse/Vulcan was selling complete Galils as the "Hegal" for a while, but I don't see them any more.
Link Posted: 10/22/2003 9:17:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/23/2003 8:42:25 PM EDT by ONEGOODCOP]
"HESSE" YOU GOT TO BE KIDDING ME. Hesse / VULCAN ARMS is a joke and a bad one. junk...garbage...nothing good ever came out of the metal abortions that hesse welded together.
How you idiots can defend that thief / moron is beyond me . HOW many people lost their money because of that asshole..you will get no singing and hand holding from me on that subject...now you want me to tell you what I really think..........hesse /vulcan arms = bad joke
Link Posted: 10/23/2003 2:48:21 AM EDT
Hesse AK receivers are nice. That's the only positive that ever came out of that company.

take care,
Tec
Link Posted: 10/23/2003 10:29:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ONEGOODCOP:
"HESSE" YOU GOT TO BE KIDDING ME. Hesse / VULCAN ARMS is a joke and a bad one. junk...garbage...nothing good ever came out of the metal abortions that hesse welded together.
How you idiots can defend that thief / moron is beyond me . HOW many people lost their money because of that asshole..you will get no singing and hand holding from me on that subject...now you want me to tell you what I really think..........fuck hesse /vulcan arms



Are you speaking from experience, or are you parroting what you read on the internet?

BTW, I hope your board name is a 'wannabe' handle. I would hate to think that there are real LEOs out there who stereotype statements like yours above. I would like to think that LEOs give credit where credit is due, and make judgements based on thorough investigations, not heresay from the internet.

Either way, your handle is as much of a misnomer as you are misinformed.
Link Posted: 10/23/2003 8:36:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/23/2003 8:45:14 PM EDT by ONEGOODCOP]
First of all let me address falphil when I say I am a leo and I don't make rash desisions based on what is on the internet. My statements come from first hand knowlege. My part time job away from the police dept. is working at a gun store and having to deal with customers that bring those hesse products in for me or our store gunsmith to fix. falphil I think it is you that is misinformed and don't know what you are talking about. My store and quite a few other stores in the area refuse to carry or sell them because they are junk and do not convey good quality to our customers. NOW that being said a friend of mine bought a hesse ar-15 (before I could inform him not to) and after several seriously dissapointing range sessions(ftf,fte,not mil spec )he brought it to to me to fix. The end result not fixable send it back to where you got it ....1 week later after going rounds with hesse and the dealer that he got it from nothing but headaches he ended up selling at the next gunshow for 100.00 less than he paid just to get rid of it. I think I hit the nail on the perverbial head when I said thief(hesse) and moron (falphil) for defending a thief you are probally a defense attorney. either way I stand by what I said as it was truth..... I am from the old school make the customers happy by selling quality products at good prices and on my other job criminals hate me because I am a good cop.....
Link Posted: 10/23/2003 8:55:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/23/2003 9:02:08 PM EDT by Gunplumber]
First, I have personally inspected representative samples of every Hesse product except for the galil receiver. I wouyldn't touch any of them with a ten foot pole. I have been accused of "arrogance" (I am arrogant, damnit, I earned the right) for refusing to build on low-quality Hesse junk. But why should I spend hours upon hours trying to force an out-of-spec piece of shit into a one-of gun that may work, but has no parts interchangeability? As to the AK receivers - I guess the poster hasn't seen the warped and twisted AK receivers that hesse won't warrany replace. I think he is a criminal fraud, but there is always someone willing to buy whatever is cheapest.

The big question is, can somone make just enough galil receivers to maike a profit? Are there enough interested buyers? My experience, and it is shared by several other manufacturers with whom I have discussed the issue, is only 20% of the "you make it and I'll buy it" crown actually pony up the money.

I made 100 postban galil brakes. It was a sizeable investment in tooling, and programming, and I am thrilled with the results. But I also expected to sell most of them in the first few weeks. Thus far, sales have been much lower than anticipated. The same results with a costly receiver couyld bankrupt a company.

By the way - shameless plug - see the US galil brake (flashider replica) at

www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/smith/ak/pagesmithak.htm

The reason Hesse casts his recievers is that, despite a high initial investment in the moulds ($50K+) the per unit cost is low. Suppose the cost is only in the mould and the units are free (not true of course, but for comparison). At $500 a pop, that is still 100 units to sell just to pay for the mould.

The lowest price DSA has ever retailed one of their receivers for is $350. I figure its about the same complication. Slightly more so maybe because the headspace is not adjustable, and with chrome-lined barrels, is really tough to compensate for even a .004" tolerance (difference between a GO and NOGO).

All my builds thus far have been on IMI Sporter receivers and all have headspaced and timed with only minimum fitting.

Then there is the liability issue. How much insurance? Don't have to have done anything wrong to get sued because someone's receiver blew up. And it will cost tens of thousands of dollars to be found not guilty.

So yes, it can be done, but when DSA started making receivers, they already had 100,000 kits and plenty of import recievers and parts to use to keep cash flow going while the production ran. Then they slowly started replacing their import parts with US made parts. I just don't think there is enough demand or parts availability to make it worth while. I'd certaitly like to see it. Maybe if the AW ban is not renewed and ATF eases their arbitrary imported parts restrictions, there would be enough interest. But I charge $500 for my builds. Of course, you get a gun built to the same exacting specs as the original, but how many people are willing to drop the $1500 for a high quality gun?

Century guns suck, but there are lots of people who will pay $500 for garbage. Not as many willing to pay $1500 for quality.

And anyone willing to take the time to machine one from a forged billet is probably not going to skimp on quality. There is too much per-unit cost to eat for bad machining.

So while I have hopes for otherwise, I suspect cast receivers are all we are going to see.



Link Posted: 10/24/2003 5:07:38 AM EDT
As a followup on Gunplumbers brake, I ordered two of them and they look great haven't attached them yet. Thanks for the great product Mark!
Link Posted: 10/24/2003 7:35:29 AM EDT
Look, all I know is what I have learned from my own experience. Currently, I own a Hesse stainless FAL receiver and a Hesse Hegal receiver. I build both guns from parts kits. Both are giving me excellent service; so excellent, that if I coverd them up so you couldn't see the manufacturer, you couldn't tell the difference between a DSA or an IMI. I have assisted on 2 AK builds with Hesse receivers (1 riveted and 1 screwed). One of those builds has had at least 10 cases of ammo through it and it too has given excellent service, so much so that you couldn't tell it from a Russian receiver.

So, we cannot both be right and I know for a fact that we can't both be wrong.

So which is it? If you tell me that the Hegal receiver is shit, I'm calling you a liar.
Link Posted: 10/24/2003 12:31:19 PM EDT
hesse defenders are idiots. look if you don"t take my word that hesse is crap then at least listen gunplumber he builds more in a day than you have in a life time probally one of the best in the buisness. me I only build ar-15's for a living not as a hobby and if I can't make one work then there is something definitely wrong three hesses i've had my hands on were garbage out of spec trash. falphil i'm calling you a liar ...damn defense attorneys
Link Posted: 10/25/2003 5:47:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FALPhil:
Look, all I know is what I have learned from my own experience. Currently, I own a Hesse stainless FAL receiver and a Hesse Hegal receiver. I build both guns from parts kits. Both are giving me excellent service; so excellent, that if I coverd them up so you couldn't see the manufacturer, you couldn't tell the difference between a DSA or an IMI.



Personally, I think a 1" section of the reciever would be enough to differentiate between a cast Hesse and a machined from billet DSA FAL receiver.
Link Posted: 10/27/2003 8:49:16 PM EDT
just because you haven't experienced problems with them (in your very few experiences) doesn't mean that hesse makes good receivers.

their ratio of junk to quality seems to be FAR, FAR lower than any respectable company. which is why those companies are respectable, and hesse/vulcan/whatever their name will be next year are not.
Link Posted: 10/28/2003 1:43:17 AM EDT
HeXXe = Junk

Poor Customer Service = HeXXe


www.angelfire.com/ak5/rpkman/

KF
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