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Posted: 11/4/2005 3:24:09 PM EDT
How much muzzle flash is there, and what muzzle device do you have (if any)?

I want to see if a flash suppressor is even needed.

Thanks for responding!

Roy
Link Posted: 11/4/2005 6:47:58 PM EDT
I believe ammunition is also a big player in muzzle flash.
Link Posted: 11/5/2005 3:21:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Readmenace:
I believe ammunition is also a big player in muzzle flash.




+1

there is always going to be some sort of visible flash and especially when shooting at night.
Link Posted: 11/5/2005 7:59:22 AM EDT
I have not, but a slant break isnt going to extinguish much flash at all, you will need a FH for night shooting, keep in mind, a FH is not meant to hide flash from the targets perspective, but instead, keep you from temporary blindness.

you might try one of those AK birdcages in the EE for $8.50, I dont know how well they work, anyone know?
Link Posted: 11/5/2005 10:06:57 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Freakzilla:
keep in mind, a FH is not meant to hide flash from the targets perspective, but instead, keep you from temporary blindness.

Wow. I didn't know that was its primary purpose. I thought it was to avoid enemy disclosure.

Roy
Link Posted: 11/5/2005 11:48:55 AM EDT
its true, its just so you do not lose your night vision, you can still see a glow, and so will anyone on the business end
Link Posted: 11/6/2005 9:48:23 AM EDT
I just have a slant break on mine. At night while shooting tracers made by wolf I noticed a little flash, but not too much. Standard wolf ball was the same. When shooting my handloads loaded with federal cases, projectiles and H-335 there was a lot more flash, almost with a bluish hue twards the end.
Link Posted: 11/12/2005 7:05:29 PM EDT
With a '74 type break.... the fire flies out of both ends horizontally. It looks really cool.
Link Posted: 11/13/2005 7:27:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Freakzilla:
I have not, but a slant break isnt going to extinguish much flash at all, you will need a FH for night shooting, keep in mind, a FH is not meant to hide flash from the targets perspective, but instead, keep you from temporary blindness.

you might try one of those AK birdcages in the EE for $8.50, I dont know how well they work, anyone know?



someone posted a video on the ak general section a week or so ago of the birdcage in action.
it worked amazingly well and i saved the video. let me see if i can find it for you
..

..

..

http://www.ak47.net/forums/topic.html?b=4&f=64&t=77986

there you go. watch for the effect.
Link Posted: 11/13/2005 10:09:59 AM EDT
Not much flash at all with just a slant brake and Wolf ammo.
Link Posted: 11/14/2005 4:44:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/14/2005 4:45:18 PM EDT by Muskrat]
Why would you want a flash suppressor on an AK, anyway?

1. It's not a standard accessory.
2. It increases your IR signature on night vision devices.
3. You typically give up the recoil reduction of the standard muzzle break.

I don't go completely blind when shooting at night. Do you?
Link Posted: 11/14/2005 5:22:06 PM EDT
July 4th, I cracked of a few from my Legend, with just a muzzle nut. My audiance claimed there was a 2 foot diameter fire ball with each round, but I never saw a damn thing.
Link Posted: 11/14/2005 8:09:23 PM EDT
I took my Romy AK-74 out the other evening for the first time and I showed my four year old son the dual fireballs. It was fun. Old Russian 5.45 I bought back in the early 90's from a sealed, light green tin. It sure sparked a lot when I was shooting my steel gong at 50 yards! I wonder...............??

Does anyone know headstamps on this ammo??
Link Posted: 11/16/2005 6:53:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Muskrat:
Why would you want a flash suppressor on an AK, anyway?

1. It's not a standard accessory.
2. It increases your IR signature on night vision devices.
3. You typically give up the recoil reduction of the standard muzzle break.

I don't go completely blind when shooting at night. Do you?



Because some of us want to bring the AK into the 21st century.

What modern rifle does not have a FS?

I dont buy that IR signature thing. I know that the huge fireball is pretty visible with the naked eye at night, even without night vision, and if someone does have NODs, it cant be much worse.
Link Posted: 11/17/2005 4:00:59 PM EDT
13.5 in barrel, Uly fmj.

cya

http://www.hunt101.com/img/345060.jpg
Link Posted: 11/22/2005 8:20:48 AM EDT
I ve shot my SAR 2 a few times at night,its the neutered model(not for long!) with no brake at all.Lots of fireball action with the Wolf FMJ!
Link Posted: 11/26/2005 4:44:44 PM EDT
This site, http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=454539&highlight=chevrofreak posted in the Kalashnikov Klub on www.glocktalk.com will show the video of the flash suppressor. Chevrofreak is the person who did the posting.
Link Posted: 11/29/2005 3:27:51 PM EDT
I fired some 123gr Lapua through my SAR1 at The Hun Farm, without a FS, and nobody saw a flash. Ammo is going to be the real determining factor.
Link Posted: 11/30/2005 6:11:13 PM EDT
All of the silver bear ammo I have shot through mine has been really "sparky" . Not alot of flames, just a big shower of , ....well....sparks.
Link Posted: 11/30/2005 8:01:23 PM EDT
If the Olympic 7.62x39 is anything like their 8mm and 7.62x54r, it should give you a good size flash.

At dusk, Silver Bear put off a good flash every fifth round on a brake free gun.
Link Posted: 12/1/2005 5:54:00 PM EDT
I've been fired at by an AK at night not sure if it was a Romanian or not.
Link Posted: 12/2/2005 7:30:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/2/2005 7:33:03 PM EDT by Muskrat]

Originally Posted By Freakzilla:

Because some of us want to bring the AK into the 21st century.

What modern rifle does not have a FS?

I dont buy that IR signature thing. I know that the huge fireball is pretty visible with the naked eye at night, even without night vision, and if someone does have NODs, it cant be much worse.



AK rounds aren't nearly as hot as modern 5.56mm ammo, so the fact that most modern rifles have flash suppressors doesn't mean much. Everything uses NATO rounds these days. With 5.56 rounds, you need a flash suppressor just to keep from going blind at night.

As for the night vision issue, that's one of the main reasons that snipers don't use flash suppressors (other than the detramental effects to accuracy.) Tests have shown that at a distance, through a night vision device, a regular crowned barrel creates a pinpoint of light. A rifle with a flash suppressor creates a large doughnut of light. This is because night vision devices pick up some infrared radiation in addition to the visible spectrum. The flash suppressor forces hot gasses out to the sides, while a crowned barrel pushes the gases forward, for the most part. Assuming that these tests carry over to assault rifles, I'd say that the best option for an AK all-around would be a slant break. It controls muzzle rise, but it doesn't seem like it would noticeably increase an IR signature the way that a flash suppressor or traditional muzzle break would. Once again, it's not like you need a flash suppressor to keep from going blind at night from an AK47, anyway.

EDIT: Look at backblast's picture. Notice how much the width of the fireball is increased by the muzzle break. (Look at the jet of flame going out to the side.) The effect when viewed through a night vision device would be even more dramatic.
Link Posted: 12/4/2005 11:14:07 AM EDT
Shooting my WASR-3 (bare muzzle) at dusk with Lake City XM193 flashes me pretty good. it definately takes a moment longer to reaquire your target after having been flashed.
Link Posted: 12/6/2005 2:50:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/6/2005 2:52:00 PM EDT by Freakzilla]

Originally Posted By Muskrat:

Originally Posted By Freakzilla:

Because some of us want to bring the AK into the 21st century.

What modern rifle does not have a FS?

I dont buy that IR signature thing. I know that the huge fireball is pretty visible with the naked eye at night, even without night vision, and if someone does have NODs, it cant be much worse.



AK rounds aren't nearly as hot as modern 5.56mm ammo, so the fact that most modern rifles have flash suppressors doesn't mean much. Everything uses NATO rounds these days. With 5.56 rounds, you need a flash suppressor just to keep from going blind at night.

As for the night vision issue, that's one of the main reasons that snipers don't use flash suppressors (other than the detramental effects to accuracy.) Tests have shown that at a distance, through a night vision device, a regular crowned barrel creates a pinpoint of light. A rifle with a flash suppressor creates a large doughnut of light. This is because night vision devices pick up some infrared radiation in addition to the visible spectrum. The flash suppressor forces hot gasses out to the sides, while a crowned barrel pushes the gases forward, for the most part. Assuming that these tests carry over to assault rifles, I'd say that the best option for an AK all-around would be a slant break. It controls muzzle rise, but it doesn't seem like it would noticeably increase an IR signature the way that a flash suppressor or traditional muzzle break would. Once again, it's not like you need a flash suppressor to keep from going blind at night from an AK47, anyway.

EDIT: Look at backblast's picture. Notice how much the width of the fireball is increased by the muzzle break. (Look at the jet of flame going out to the side.) The effect when viewed through a night vision device would be even more dramatic.



does our enemy have night vision capability? OK then I guess you have to change your story.

your post is a load of crap
Link Posted: 12/6/2005 2:59:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Freakzilla:

Originally Posted By Muskrat:

Originally Posted By Freakzilla:

Because some of us want to bring the AK into the 21st century.

What modern rifle does not have a FS?

I dont buy that IR signature thing. I know that the huge fireball is pretty visible with the naked eye at night, even without night vision, and if someone does have NODs, it cant be much worse.



AK rounds aren't nearly as hot as modern 5.56mm ammo, so the fact that most modern rifles have flash suppressors doesn't mean much. Everything uses NATO rounds these days. With 5.56 rounds, you need a flash suppressor just to keep from going blind at night.

As for the night vision issue, that's one of the main reasons that snipers don't use flash suppressors (other than the detramental effects to accuracy.) Tests have shown that at a distance, through a night vision device, a regular crowned barrel creates a pinpoint of light. A rifle with a flash suppressor creates a large doughnut of light. This is because night vision devices pick up some infrared radiation in addition to the visible spectrum. The flash suppressor forces hot gasses out to the sides, while a crowned barrel pushes the gases forward, for the most part. Assuming that these tests carry over to assault rifles, I'd say that the best option for an AK all-around would be a slant break. It controls muzzle rise, but it doesn't seem like it would noticeably increase an IR signature the way that a flash suppressor or traditional muzzle break would. Once again, it's not like you need a flash suppressor to keep from going blind at night from an AK47, anyway.

EDIT: Look at backblast's picture. Notice how much the width of the fireball is increased by the muzzle break. (Look at the jet of flame going out to the side.) The effect when viewed through a night vision device would be even more dramatic.



does our enemy have night vision capability? OK then I guess you have to change your story.

your post is a load of crap



What kinda one war fighter are you?
You adjust your tactics to the strongest enemy you will have to fight.
Does our enemy have tanks?
An airforce?
Not this current one, no.
But China, Russia, France, Germany, Iran, DPRK, etc do have NODs.

If you are going to be so cranky, you'll feel more at home on the AR side.
Link Posted: 12/6/2005 5:48:56 PM EDT
what kind of warfighter am i?

US Army

And yes, you adjust your tactics for the particular enemy you are dealing with, not "for your strongest"

that is bunk

BTW, our snipers are not using suppressors because they are "adapting" not because they are scared of an IR sig
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 12:09:32 PM EDT
What I was saying was that since flash suppressors hurt accuracy and make you more visible at long distances through a night vision device, the only point to using a flash suppressor on a sniper rifle would be if you were shooting reasonably close to an enemy that didn't have night vision capabilities. Flash suppressors would be such a specialized item that they're just not worth it for snipers. Besides, if you're worried about muzzle flash, sound suppressors are the best flash suppressors, anyway... My post made a good point and was not a "load of crap."

My real point was that since the 7.62x39 round doesn't have a tremendous muzzle flash anyway, it's not worth it to have a flash suppressor. All a flash suppressor would do is shoot hot gasses out to the sides and make you more visible with NV or IR at longer distances. The only advantage a flash suppressor would have in that case would be to make you slightly less visible to the naked eye, especially at close ranges. I was just saying that a slant break seems to be a good balance between concealment vs. enemies with or without night vision.
Link Posted: 12/10/2005 3:08:36 PM EDT
My $0.02:

When I owned a Polytech M14, it came with a fake FS...basically it was just a tube with shallow "divets" milled out of the outside. (The inside had an ID of about 3/8")

With this thing on, I got groups averaging 8" at 100 yards...this, with a .308 and a scope!

I put on a USGI FS, and the groups dropped to 1 1/4"...now I'm no sniper but it seems to me that in this case a FS improved accuracy a lot...and although I didn't fire it with a bare barrel to compare, I would think it would be difficult to improve on this; anything less would indicate I owned a sub-MOA Chinese rifle out of the box.

Never fired anything at night 'cept a Luger 9mm. Big, big fireball.
Link Posted: 12/10/2005 8:42:33 PM EDT
Yes, some flash suppressors are more accurate than others. When air rushes out of the barrel, flash suppressors create turbulance, which throws the bullet off a little. When I said that flash suppressors hurt accuracy, it was a hasty generalization, though. Now that I think about it, Vortex flash suppressors are said to help the gasses come out smoothly. They're actually supposed to enhance accuracy. Until someone shows me a picture of a Vortex with NV, though, I'm going to stand by my choice of a slant break.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 5:49:52 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 9:52:37 PM EDT
It depends on ammo mostly and barrel length.

I fired a 7.62x39 AKSU with and with out the flash hider/brake thingy in front at dusk. With out the brake thingy the flash was stout and other people stopped shooting because they thought my gun had blown up. With the brake it was still very stout but not near as bad. As for standard AKs-Czech ammo has quite a fireball, so does Egyptian, and Syrian ammo. Russian and Chinese military production ammo weren't too bad.
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 4:01:56 AM EDT
ALL THE FLASH HIDER FLASH SUPPRESSORS ON THE END OF THE AK AND MOST
ASSAULT RIFLES ARE FOR RECOIL THE OBJECT IS TO KEEP THE SITE ON THE TARGET
LESS RECOIL MORE TIME ON THE TARGET FOR BETTER RIFLEMAN
ITS ABOUT 2FT DIA ON THE FLASH AT NIGHT
I PLAYED OPFOR WITH THE NATIONAL GUARD WITH MY OTHER 3 OF
MY AK BUDDYS WITH BLANKS AT NIGHT WITH FOUR AK GOING AT ONCE
IT LIGHTS IT UP PRETTY GOOD
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 1:34:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/30/2005 1:35:08 PM EDT by Freakzilla]
You AK people really are a different crowd, the "gunshow gun expert" crowd

I am now ashamed that I have joined the darkside




BTW Mustang, ALL CAPS MEANS YOU ARE YELLING

and welcome
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 11:13:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/3/2006 11:14:16 PM EDT by KMFDM]
Really, interesting observation, hehehe
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