Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 2
Posted: 2/28/2006 3:45:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/28/2006 3:47:40 PM EDT by usamma]
I believe the only country that still uses it as a service round is Russia, all the other former com-block countries have switched to 5.56.

How many of you think that Russia will eventually abandon the round and go to either 7.62, 5.56, or something completely different in the next 20 years?

If this happens what will happen to 5.45? Will the left over surplus be enough to last for the life of the rifles remaining?

Will russian manufactuers continue to make 5.45 for the domestic market? If so will the prices go significantly up?

I have an SAR-2 as my SHTF weapon but have been thinking of trading for a 7.62 due to the possiblity of 5.45 going the way of the do-do bird in my lifetime.

I dont think this will be an issue with 7.62, as it is so widespread, its not going away for a long, long time.

I really love my SAR-2, the 5.45 recoils very lightly, is fairly accurate, lighter, more controllable, but I dont want to be stuck with a dead caliber for a SHTF weapon

Thoughts?
Link Posted: 2/28/2006 3:50:30 PM EDT
No. There is always going to be interest. Look at .222 Rem. Why would you buy one when match ammo is easily available for .223? .222 ammo is still available. With all of the kits brought in country, along with the 5.45 rifles already here...Wolf would be stupid to stop producing ammuntion in this caliber... Just my opinion.
Link Posted: 2/28/2006 3:51:51 PM EDT
Considering that the 5.45 re-vitalized the AK action, I think its going to be around for a while. Its going to take the rise of something better both action-wise and round-wise to get the Russians to change (the AN-94 is a specialty weapon and isn't really suitable for widespread use due to its potentially frail design). Other countries are just getting on the 5.56 bandwagon because its a NATO round, albeit they are getting on about 40 years too late. In the US, the military is debating about the 5.56 being outdated. I really think 5.45 will remain the Russian standard for at least 10-15 more years.
Link Posted: 2/28/2006 3:57:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By usamma:
I believe the only country that still uses it as a service round is Russia, all the other former com-block countries have switched to 5.56.



Romania still uses it



How many of you think that Russia will eventually abandon the round and go to either 7.62, 5.56, or something completely different in the next 20 years?



Maybe if Russia becomes substantially richer, as it stands they have no money to replace anything



If this happens what will happen to 5.45? Will the left over surplus be enough to last for the life of the rifles remaining?



It will go the way of 7.92 Kurz and the dodo bird. FYI, surplus Russian ammo is not importable to the US



Will russian manufactuers continue to make 5.45 for the domestic market? If so will the prices go significantly up?



My guess is production will cease altogether. There is no international demand for the ammo and the civilian market even in the US is tiny at best



I have an SAR-2 as my SHTF weapon but have been thinking of trading for a 7.62 due to the possiblity of 5.45 going the way of the do-do bird in my lifetime.



I would switch to 7.62 or 5.56 for TSHTF if I were you. Keep the 5.45 as an oddity if you want, but don't count on being able to get ammo in the future



I dont think this will be an issue with 7.62, as it is so widespread, its not going away for a long, long time.



Agreed, and US made 7.62 is available, if expensive



I really love my SAR-2, the 5.45 recoils very lightly, is fairly accurate, lighter, more controllable, but I dont want to be stuck with a dead caliber for a SHTF weapon

Thoughts?



Have you looked into a 5.56 AK? Mag cost and non-interchangeability between variants are issues, I admit.
Link Posted: 2/28/2006 4:18:33 PM EDT
5.45x39 will always be around, but will never be as cheap and plentiful as 7.62 or 5.56.

There are far more 5.45 shooters than there are 6.5 Grendel or 458Socom, etc. If the imports cease entirely someone will start domestic production. Just won't be cheap.

Right now, 7.62x39 is kind of scarce, without the import stuff coming in the US ammo manufactures will have no incentive to offer lower cost white box, etc ammo.

I hope the import situation improves soon for both 5.45 and 7.62, or it will put a real damper on our fun.
Link Posted: 2/28/2006 4:19:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/28/2006 4:19:58 PM EDT by uxo2]
How many countries still use on a large scale these catridges....
8mm mauser....7mm mauser....30.06.....30.40krag...45.70.... and a slew of others that were thoght to be the ultimate...
I got rid of my 5.45 for the same reasons you did and got a few 7.62x39's...
It is so imbedded in the world and here in the states that you could even go to walmart and get ammo....
Read the writing on the wall people...The 5.45 will fall by the wayside....
There are only 3 major calibers that are used world wide for combat rifles....
7.62 nato....5.56.....and.........................7.62x39
yeah there are others but these dominate.
al of this are my oberservations from jane defense weekly...and IMHO of course
Link Posted: 2/28/2006 4:24:31 PM EDT
Fear Not...Even if the Russian Army ditched the 5.45 rounds, as long as there is a demand from the US shooting public, someones would still be making the bullets. The round itself is quite good; it just doesn't have a long history of War to back it up. If you are going to pick a caliber for SHTF, you will have to pick from a list of calibers that is the MOST popular(eg. 7.62 and/or 5.56).
Link Posted: 2/28/2006 4:50:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By uxo2:
How many countries still use on a large scale these catridges....
8mm mauser....7mm mauser....30.06.....30.40krag...45.70....
and a slew of others that were thoght to be the ultimate...
I got rid of my 5.45 for the same reasons you did and got a few 7.62x39's...
It is so imbedded in the world and here in the states that you could even go to walmart and get ammo....
Read the writing on the wall people...The 5.45 will fall by the wayside....
There are only 3 major calibers that are used world wide for combat rifles....
7.62 nato....5.56.....and.........................7.62x39
yeah there are others but these dominate.
al of this are my oberservations from jane defense weekly...and IMHO of course



And most of those old cartridges are still widely available, both surplus and new. If you are arming your self for the "Apocalypse", get whatever makes the most sense. Keep in mind that very few first world country's use 7.62x39, not even the country that originated it, not China, nor most of eastern Europe, so 7.62 could be considered on its way out also. The reality is you can get just about any ammo you want, independent of what the worlds military are doing.

If you enjoy collecting and shooting military weapons, you should have an 5.45x39 AK in your collection.

Link Posted: 2/28/2006 6:44:16 PM EDT
If you enjoy collecting and shooting military weapons, you should have an 5.45x39 AK in your collection.


I compleatly agree on the collecting part....As for the Chinese...They went their own way on calibers......
But still...for a SHTF weapon...The M43....5.56.....308 ...22lr and 12 ga will be just about every where....MAINLY .22lr

This is a dead horse issue...But if you retain the 5.45....stock up on as much ammo as you can....
Even if it is a common caliber that you might have ...stocking up is the way to go..
As for performance between them????I don't want to get hit by any of them because they WILL ALL ruin your day..
Choose wisely....Educate yourself and decide what fits your needs.....
Link Posted: 2/28/2006 7:53:12 PM EDT
I would say it is ......because Russia is the only country that still has it ......bulgy and poland are getting rid of their 5.45 ak's for 223 ak's.....something to do with the U.N
Link Posted: 2/28/2006 8:10:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/28/2006 8:10:39 PM EDT by STG77]

Originally Posted By Lando12:
I would say it is ......because Russia is the only country that still has it ......bulgy and poland are getting rid of their 5.45 ak's for 223 ak's.....something to do with the U.N




NATO, not the UN.
Link Posted: 2/28/2006 8:23:42 PM EDT
I believe it will be around but in limited quantities, the 5.56 is the new 5.45 for most of the com block countries since most were 7.62 prior and waited to change to 5.56. Which means that while 5.56 is readily being developed and standardized- so will the weapons that use them. For the most part the only non-standard 5.56 is the Romanian pattern guns while the others use a more 7.62 pattern. Honestly I believe we are seeing so much 5.45 kits simply because the com bloc nations are dumping their surplus of these weapons in trade for tooling up for the 5.56. Just the way I see it, really why keep an old caliber around when limited changes in production for 7.62 will accomidate 5.56. I don't see 7.62 ever being phased out completely simply because it is so widespread.
Link Posted: 2/28/2006 8:53:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/28/2006 8:54:06 PM EDT by usamma]

Originally Posted By STG77:
FYI, surplus Russian ammo is not importable to the US



Why is that?
Link Posted: 2/28/2006 9:15:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By usamma:

Originally Posted By STG77:
FYI, surplus Russian ammo is not importable to the US



Why is that?




www.ttb.gov/regulations/tdatf6.htm
Link Posted: 2/28/2006 9:18:26 PM EDT

It's dead and gone. I haven't seen new 5,45 ammo for months. It's strange that people say there is a 7,62 shortage because it's all being bought by the .gov, but not a word on the disappearance of 5,45. There is no way it’s all being diverted to Iraq!

One of the local AK gurus nearby me just sold off all his AKs and is shooting his AR again. He says the AR ammo is more affordable in comparison, which is why he got into AKs years ago in the first place.

What this means is the AK is moving into collector status. It’s not likely it will ever be cheap to feed again.

I have a .223 AK so I’m still covered if I need to shoot an AK cheaply.
Link Posted: 2/28/2006 9:53:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Robert2011:
What this means is the AK is moving into collector status. It’s not likely it will ever be cheap to feed again.



Umm I dont know about that, there are a ton of sks and ak's in the us and the world chamber in 7.62, its probably still the most if not the second most common round in the world
Link Posted: 2/28/2006 10:21:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By usamma:

Originally Posted By Robert2011:
What this means is the AK is moving into collector status. It’s not likely it will ever be cheap to feed again.



Umm I dont know about that, there are a ton of sks and ak's in the us and the world chamber in 7.62, its probably still the most if not the second most common round in the world



The UN has already completed the process to prevent military surplus from being exported. That leaves new ammo. Wolf 7.62x39, when you can find it costs as much as I was paying for surplus 7.62 NATO and XM193 a couple of years ago. Wolf 7.62 was $75 last year. Now it's $150 and hard to find even at that price. The only 5.45 on the market is what people are dragging out of the garage to sell for double the money they paid for it.

Unless the Russian/former combloc world economy collapses I don't see any cheap ammo hitting the shores anytime soon. I wish I bought more at $75 a carton when I could.
Link Posted: 2/28/2006 11:02:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/28/2006 11:05:03 PM EDT by clange]
With all the 5.45 kits that came in there is a market. It may be small, but I think its here to stay.

There hasnt been new surplus 7.62x39 in many years, its all been new production. As long as theres a market for 5.45 there will be new production from wolf and barnaul, albeit in spotty supply. This same kind of talk was on the board almost a year ago, and my back order for a case of 5.45 eventually made it to my door.


It's dead and gone. I haven't seen new 5,45 ammo for months. It's strange that people say there is a 7,62 shortage because it's all being bought by the .gov, but not a word on the disappearance of 5,45. There is no way it’s all being diverted to Iraq!

A lot of wolf ammo is being affected by something, not just 7.62x39. I just ordered 100 rounds of 12ga and its back ordered as long as 7.62x39.
Link Posted: 2/28/2006 11:42:40 PM EDT
The 5.45 round is DOA. It has IV's in both arms, both intraoseous sites, and has had 3 AED attempts and has been intubated and had O2 at 30lpm. It has not responded to anything, and is now officially dead!!

If you have a 5.45 rifle, you had better sell it now!!!
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 12:07:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/1/2006 12:09:14 AM EDT by STG77]

Originally Posted By Robert2011:
The UN has already completed the process to prevent military surplus from being exported.




That explains why that Guatemalan surplus just showed up on the market.


The UN has nothing to do with surplus 5.45 being unavailable. No one has ever imported surplus 5.45 into the US in quantity. I'm not sure why not (except for the Russian stuff which is not legal to import), but the bottom line is that it hasn't happened.
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 12:46:54 AM EDT
I do not think it is dead but it will never be like 7.62x39 or 5.56.
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 3:49:15 AM EDT
there will always be wolf 545-39 available.......think about how many 545 rifles the ruskies have issued......and if they do change most of those rifles will end up over here for us to buy...........
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 4:31:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BlackandGreen:
there will always be wolf 545-39 available.......think about how many 545 rifles the ruskies have issued......and if they do change most of those rifles will end up over here for us to buy...........




No, they won't.
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 4:34:49 AM EDT
I only wish someone would start selling bullets and brass so I could reload my own.
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 4:47:15 AM EDT
Wonder why clinton and company made that arangement with the RF? Imagine all the Tokerov's, dragunov's, siminov's, mosin nagant's, and kalashnikov's we will miss out on. Not to mention all the ammunition. Same with the ban on chinese made arms. It may be tin foil hat, but it seems our government is plotting something.
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 4:49:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By LUGERMAN:
I only wish someone would start selling bullets and brass so I could reload my own.



Isnt the winchester cases boxer primed? And .311 bullets can be had all day.
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 5:16:08 AM EDT
Russian Pride will never let them adopt a NATO rounds...just like our own Pride would not let us adopt the RPGs...
the 5.45 mm is here to stay!!!
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 6:06:53 AM EDT
dumped my 5.45 and 7.62 AK's for .223 AK's. No regrets at all! Now I can share ammo with my AR, G36k conversion, HK53, etc.
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 6:29:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/1/2006 6:36:37 AM EDT by HermanSnerd]
Wolf ammo just announced the 5.45 and 7.62x39 Military classic ammo line
with the old red sealant. It will be more affordable than the new polymer coated stuff.

I wouldn't worry about 5.45 availability after this announcement from Wolf.


img146.imageshack.us/img146/6744/wolfammo1pg.jpg

Link Posted: 3/1/2006 6:50:07 AM EDT

img146.imageshack.us/img146/6744/wolfammo1pg.jpg


Wtf is up with the velocity of 5.45 on that ad?
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 7:48:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ROMAD-556:
Russian Pride will never let them adopt a NATO rounds...just like our own Pride would not let us adopt the RPGs...
the 5.45 mm is here to stay!!!

......................exactly.........and as far as the "ban"........just politics......."subject to change without notice"......and it will.....fast as uncle sees the $$$ he will get.................
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 8:04:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By HermanSnerd:
Wolf ammo just announced the 5.45 and 7.62x39 Military classic ammo line
with the old red sealant. It will be more affordable than the new polymer coated stuff.

I wouldn't worry about 5.45 availability after this announcement from Wolf.


img146.imageshack.us/img146/6744/wolfammo1pg.jpg




thats a very valid point
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 8:09:10 AM EDT
There was a reason I bought an AR instead of an AK.

US military and Law enforcement both use the 5.56 round. It's produced domestically and you can find it everywhere. To me it makes sense to be able to aquire ammo from local sources in case the S does HTF. Granted having a stash is nice but in the end S happens and you can end up seperated from the cache. Being able to forage for ammo may become key.
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 8:41:58 AM EDT
I believe that 90% of the people who post on here are lard-assed beer-gutted fat bodies who would probably be "foraging" for beer and food rather than ammo if the much talked about SHTF really happened. Most of the folks here aren't able to run around the block, much less able to "bug out" with their AK and defend America. They're too fat. So I wouldn't worry about it too much.
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 8:57:33 AM EDT
Hell WOLF is making/ selling .303. If they have the resources to do that then they can keep making 5.45x39mm.


Link Posted: 3/1/2006 9:10:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By usamma:

img146.imageshack.us/img146/6744/wolfammo1pg.jpg


Wtf is up with the velocity of 5.45 on that ad?



An earlier post stated that the velocity was from an 8" krink with a 70 gr projectile.
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 10:15:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By pieceofstink:
I believe that 90% of the people who post on here are lard-assed beer-gutted fat bodies who would probably be "foraging" for beer and food rather than ammo if the much talked about SHTF really happened. Most of the folks here aren't able to run around the block, much less able to "bug out" with their AK and defend America. They're too fat. So I wouldn't worry about it too much.



Hey! I resemble that remark!!

As to running around the block, I see no freakin point in it, like here I am, why run half a mile just to get where I already am?


Oh, if SHTF happens, you better already have all the ammo you need, caus Walmart may not be open.

Link Posted: 3/1/2006 10:35:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ROMAD-556:
Russian Pride will never let them adopt a NATO rounds...just like our own Pride would not let us adopt the RPGs...
the 5.45 mm is here to stay!!!



+1 The Russians are a proud group..and stubborn. They've proved that many times. I think 5.45 will stay around.

Seriously though, this issue comes up like once a week. We might as well have a tacked "Is 5.45 dead?" thread. I have a solid prediction for those of us that shoot 5.45: either we're screwed or we aren't. Time will tell.
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 11:06:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mco119:

Originally Posted By ROMAD-556:
Russian Pride will never let them adopt a NATO rounds...just like our own Pride would not let us adopt the RPGs...
the 5.45 mm is here to stay!!!



+1 The Russians are a proud group..and stubborn. They've proved that many times. I think 5.45 will stay around.

Seriously though, this issue comes up like once a week. We might as well have a tacked "Is 5.45 dead?" thread. I have a solid prediction for those of us that shoot 5.45: either we're screwed or we aren't. Time will tell.



Good idea
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 1:09:15 PM EDT
you know, if the S has truly HTF, ammo supply would be among the lowest of my concerns.

What are you going to do? stumble across crates and crates of 5.56, and go "oh noeses! i should have bought an AR instead of a 5.45 AK, because of ammo availability!"

No way; if you are finding ammunition in bulk, then I'd lay you odds there's a weapon or two to go with the ammunition nearby.
I really can't fathom what some of you are envisioning when you say "resupply ammo in SHTF situations."
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 1:28:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/1/2006 1:28:45 PM EDT by MauserMark]

Originally Posted By sic_ness:

I really can't fathom what some of you are envisioning when you say "resupply ammo in SHTF situations."



resupply ammo in SHTF should be what you're carrying in your backpack and in your mag pouch/vest.

that's all I'm counting on.

God help me if I needed more than 400 rounds to at least get to a safter location of the country.
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 1:31:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By STG77:

Originally Posted By Lando12:
I would say it is ......because Russia is the only country that still has it ......bulgy and poland are getting rid of their 5.45 ak's for 223 ak's.....something to do with the U.N




NATO, not the UN.



oooo my bad ....nice to have someone on the ball
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 1:36:15 PM EDT

It's as if there is an ammo embargo against us. I think I have more 5.45 ammo in the basement than Wolf or Barnaul has imported to the U.S. in the last year. Factories just don’t stop production or stop selling to you for a year unless something is up.

Now there is new “Wolf” M193 ammo arriving, but it is from Serbia. It just says Wolf on the box, it’s not from Russia. It’s marketing by someone, probably someone in an office in New York set the deal up, not the Russian factory.

I plan to get into reloading but doubt I can reload 7.62x39 for old Wolf prices. It will cost no different than reloading .308 (more if I can’t find the spent brass) so what’s the point? I haven’t seen any 5.45 reloading gear, brass or bullets , but would buy in bulk today if it was available and the price was right.

My first round of 5.45 from back in my ammo collection days was $10 and that was a special deal because I knew the right people so got one of the rare rounds that made it west. At this rate I might look back on that as a "good deal" someday.
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 1:57:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MauserMark:

God help me if I needed more than 400 rounds to at least get to a safter location of the country.



EXACTLY my point!!
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 2:42:10 PM EDT
That I know of, no one makes bullets or brass for 5.45. If somebody does, they're far from common.

I have an AK-74 and have no plans on replacing it, in fact I may end up with 2 or 3 guns in 5.45. But it will die and become largely unavailable. Old Western Scrounger or someone like that may carry it for $3 a round. Not tomorrow, not next year, not 5 years from now. 10? Maybe. 20? Almost definate. You have to remember, the AK-74 kit builds by various reletively small builders represent 95% of the 5.45 guns in this country...that's a pretty small market.

As someone else on these boards says, this is my opinion and it's worth what you paid for it.
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 6:33:42 PM EDT
you can get 5.45 dies from huntingtons.don't know what to do about brass & bullets or even loading data. you could probably use imr 2230 powder. wish the reloading community would step forward & help us out. I e-mailed both lee & rcbs neither one cares about that cartride. maybe they will once it's completely obsolete? R1150R
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 7:19:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/1/2006 7:21:51 PM EDT by Robert2011]

Huntingtons lists it as a special order RCBS die.

Here is something that came up on a search of another forum:
"Ammo is no problem. I use a set of RCBS 5.45x39mm dies from www.huntingtons.com to resize new .222 Remington brass and trim to length. Resize Hornady .224" 68gr hpbt match bullets with a special order Lee lube and size kit to resize the bullets to .221".
http://leeprecision.com/catalog/brow...=lubesize.html"
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 10:21:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NH_AR_Shooter:
5.45x39 will always be around, but will never be as cheap and plentiful as 7.62 or 5.56.

There are far more 5.45 shooters than there are 6.5 Grendel or 458Socom, etc. If the imports cease entirely someone will start domestic production. Just won't be cheap.



Doesn't matter that there are more. The 6.5 and Socom shooters are willing to part out with mega $$ to enjoy shooting those rounds. If Russia drops the 5.45 the price of it, as you stated, will go up, way up, and I doubt very much AK fans will be willing to pay 6.5 Grendal amounts for 5.45, which means it will almost certainly all but disappear.
Link Posted: 3/2/2006 2:25:52 AM EDT
I said this before in the AK ammo forum, Why can`t someone here make steel cased ammo for AK`s, like CCI Blazer?
Link Posted: 3/2/2006 4:26:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By GeorgiaBII:
There was a reason I bought an AR instead of an AK.

US military and Law enforcement both use the 5.56 round. It's produced domestically and you can find it everywhere. To me it makes sense to be able to aquire ammo from local sources in case the S does HTF. Granted having a stash is nice but in the end S happens and you can end up seperated from the cache. Being able to forage for ammo may become key.



In case the S does HTF you are not going to be able to aquire ammo from local sources.
Link Posted: 3/2/2006 6:06:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Parrandero:

Originally Posted By GeorgiaBII:
There was a reason I bought an AR instead of an AK.

US military and Law enforcement both use the 5.56 round. It's produced domestically and you can find it everywhere. To me it makes sense to be able to aquire ammo from local sources in case the S does HTF. Granted having a stash is nice but in the end S happens and you can end up seperated from the cache. Being able to forage for ammo may become key.



In case the S does HTF you are not going to be able to aquire ammo from local sources.



This is correct. If a societal breakdown did occur, the military will seize all outlets of firearms, ammunition and booze. So if you ain't got it you won't get it. On the 5.45 issue: as long as it is profitable to sell it, it will be sold.
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 2
Top Top