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Posted: 2/20/2006 2:16:44 PM EDT
I'm buying a AK in 7.62 and then I'm going to spend some money on a "sniper" style rifle. I'm trying to decide whether to spend some money on a Rem 700 ADL I have sitting at home by senting it to George Gardner of GA Precision and having a Mike Rock 5R barrel put on it and get it squared and trued......... or to spend the money on a NDM-86 in 7.62x54R if I can find one. I know the Rem 700 will be more accurate but the NDM (chinese SVD) is rare and they aren't seen too often. I'm looking at $2500. Here's sort of a breakdown for those of you not familiar with precision rigs...

Rem700 ADL in .308(Have)
Mike Rock 5r 24" barrel installed, trued, and squared ($700)
Used AICS 1.5 ($500)
Badger rings and 20MOA base ($250)
Harris Bipod ($70)
Leupold MK 4 10x M3 ($1050)

That totals $2570 for a precision rig that will shoot 1/2 MOA all day long.

On the other hand, if I can find a NDM-86 in 7.62x54r for around $2500, I'll have the exact same thing as a Russian SVD which will be collectable, keep increasing in value, and probably only shoot 2 MOA. I want a "sniper" style rifle. I won't be sitting on a benchrest shooting at targets all day to see how small of a group I can get, so accuracy doesn't have to be under 1 MOA. I usually shoot empty propane cylinders out at the farm. I've heard of hits with the SVD at 1000yds on enemy troops by Russians in Afghanistan so it can make long range hits, even though it was only designed to be a DMR. It's kind of a difficult decision with this much money, but I guess if I don't like one I can sell it to get the other. My question is...what would you do?
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 2:35:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/20/2006 2:36:14 PM EDT by AC_Doctor]
I have owned 2 NDM-86's and 4 GA Precision rifles. The NDM-86's are a one-of-a-kind and generate alot of attention from those who have never shot one or seen one up close. They are not very accurate and will give you a nice little shove in the shoulder when shooting. I would definately get the GA Precision rifle. My best 300 yard 5-shot group from the bench is a little over 1.2".
I am not knocking the NDM's but would personally rather have the more accurate rifle ( which I can also get parts for ). Try getting a firing pin for the Norinco...

AC
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 3:15:30 PM EDT
I would seek out an NDM-86 in .308. That way you will have the unique rifle and they are also very accurate.

Link Posted: 2/20/2006 3:42:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/20/2006 3:46:10 PM EDT by Q-gunner2]
Try to get a deal on a real Russian SVD. You might find one for a good price if you look...

As far as the NDM, some say they get less than an inch at 100 and others say their accuracy sucks. I think it depends based on the rifle and how it is treated.

Or, you could get a Yugoslavian M-76. Ohio Rapid Fire offers one with scope and 4 10 round mags for $2,000... 8mm ammo is dirt cheap, and it will be simple but accurate and since the barrel ban it will probably gain in value. No 922(r) problems so everything but the reciever is original Yugo.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 6:10:11 PM EDT
I took my NDM in 7.62x54r out to the range today... I would say one of the biggest drawbacks to accuracy in the NDM is the ammo. It is hard to find match level ammo for it. As someone suggested get one in 7.62x51 and you'll be set. You'll be able to find ammo at 95% of gunshops in the US and you'll never have to worry about corrosive ammo. You can even shoot surplus 7.62x51 through it all day long...

I guess the question you're going to have to answer for yourself is - do I want a 2 MOA unique rifle or a .5MOA precision M700 like most of the US has? Is it an investment or for shooting?

Spooky
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 6:27:06 PM EDT
I think either of the NDM rifles would be the way to go. If you want the best of both worlds go for the .308 version since there is match ammo available for it. I think the NDM rifles are going to hold their values a lot better as well.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 11:53:30 PM EDT
What should I expect to pay for a NDM in either 7.62x54r or .308 in good shape with original scope and one or two mags? If its going to be as much as a Sako TGR-42 I'll buy one of them and splurge for a scope later...
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 5:28:14 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 1:51:37 PM EDT
There are much better semi-automatic DMR type weapons in 7.62 NATO than a NDM86. For the price you could buy a Springfield M1A, JLD PTR or DSA FAL. All of which are better, more accurate weapons than an NDM86. I personally think 7.62x54 is one of the weapons strong points. While MG ammo isn't suitible for match use, its great for practice or minute-of-badguy, at moderate ranges. NDM's chambered for NATO use obscure, albeit more reliable magazines. Rimmed cartridges aren't conducive to feeding from a box magazine and failures can occur, though I have not yet experienced one. NDM's have a reputation for mediocre accuracy. My NDM86 in 54r wouldn't hold much better than 4MOA with Black Hills, while my Russian SVD and Romainian PSL will break under 2MOA with the same ammo. David Fortier did an article about the abhorent accuracy of his .308 NDM, which he sent to Krebs for fixin', in a SGN article a month or so back.
It turned out great, but alot of money was no doubt spent. Personally, 54r is one of the appeals of the SVD, otherwise I would greatly prefer a JLDPTR 91A1 with 168grn TAP and 20 round magazines. 7.62x54r is a very effective round and when done right, it can encroach upon .06 levels. Finding accurate ammo isn't too dificult, but its not quite as easy/availible as .308. BH probably makes the best/most accurate, followed by Wolf Extra and Winchester. With magazines being so expensive and only holding 10 rounds, 500 rounds goes along way. I cant see the sense in buying .308 NDM when there are cheper, more avaiible and better .308 weapons. I wasn't happy with my NDM 86. While a true SVD, which looks amazing its performance was abysmal. My PSL is a much more functional weapon. There isn't a SVD that can match the effectivenss of a MSG90, Mk11 or M21.
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 4:42:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/21/2006 4:44:15 PM EDT by cms81586]
I'm to the point where I have no clue which weapon I want to buy next. I have a HK-91, a SLR-105a1R, and a Colt LE 6920. I'm getting a Polish PMKMS underfolder so I have both Russian caliber AK's and then I want to long range weapon. I like weapons that are more obscure. I'm not shooting to see if I can get tiny groups on paper. Between 1 and 3 MOA will make me happy. That last 1/2 or 1 moa you might be able to get out of a bolt gun won't be noticable in the field anyhow. I still want a NDM even after some advice against it. I can always sell it if I don't like it. I guess I was just looking for major reasons that go against getting a SVD/NDM. CMS


ETA: This will be an investment, but I'll be shooting it. I do take care of my weapons though.
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 4:51:38 PM EDT
I have a total Custom Remington in .300 RUM, Badger Rings, 20 MOA base, Vaiss Comp, totally blueprinted from the ground up- but I never shoot it.

Link Posted: 2/21/2006 5:01:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Creeper:
I have a total Custom Remington in .300 RUM, Badger Rings, 20 MOA base, Vaiss Comp, totally blueprinted from the ground up- but I never shoot it.




Got something you like a little more eh?
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 5:06:04 PM EDT
How accurate are Vepr compaired to the NDM?
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 5:07:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/21/2006 5:11:44 PM EDT by Creeper]

Originally Posted By cms81586:

Originally Posted By Creeper:
I have a total Custom Remington in .300 RUM, Badger Rings, 20 MOA base, Vaiss Comp, totally blueprinted from the ground up- but I never shoot it.




Got something you like a little more eh?



Honestly I like the rifle but really you need a long range to take it out, I mean .300 RUM is one hell of a round. Honestly the guy who built it fired it three times and I fired it twice. It's an 11 lb 1500 meter gun with 25" free floated barrel, OD green, 10x mil dot, all set-up for field carry but I like shooting my AR's and AK's a bit more I guess. Cool thing though, with the Viass comp it kicks maybe like a .308 yet the .300 RUM is running around 3400FPS factory loads, about 18% greater than .300 WM plus some guys re-load to around 3700FPS in a .30 cal!!!
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 5:18:43 PM EDT
For shooting and accuracy the Rem 700 GA package.

For collecting and investment value the SVD.

Just depends what you want more?
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 5:22:13 PM EDT
I would say SVD- sustained fire. The bolt guns are cool but you can buy a Savage that will do near the same unless your planning on reloading anyway.
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 5:26:55 PM EDT
I got rid of my 700 P right before I found a bunch of places to shoot....two of which are more than 1000yds and are less that 20 mins from my house. Now I want a something cheap to shoot but good at long range work. If I get a bolt gun from GA Precision or even another Rem 700 P I'd feel guilty running surplus through it. I don't reload and I don't want to pay $20 for a box of 20rnds. I want something that can make hits in a few shots on targets out to say 800 meters. That is why I looked into the NDM-86. That and I'm seeing them in pics in Iraq and I really want one. We'll see...
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 5:30:56 PM EDT
It really depends on what you want IMO, the svd will retain its value if not go up in price, as the custom rifle will decrease in value and you will never get what their worth if you ever try to sell it. So with that said:

Accuracy, if your just looking for something to shoot sub moa= custom bolt gun
Resale value, Rarity of type of rifle= svd

Link Posted: 2/21/2006 5:44:07 PM EDT
Why don't you just send the Rem700 directly to Mike Rock?

Last time I checked, about $200 cheaper.
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 6:19:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By kythri:
Why don't you just send the Rem700 directly to Mike Rock?

Last time I checked, about $200 cheaper.



Don't have any contact info. I was planning to have other work done as well though. If you have Mikes info I'd appriciate it! Thanks,

CMS
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 6:29:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cms81586:
I got rid of my 700 P right before I found a bunch of places to shoot....two of which are more than 1000yds and are less that 20 mins from my house. Now I want a something cheap to shoot but good at long range work. If I get a bolt gun from GA Precision or even another Rem 700 P I'd feel guilty running surplus through it. You can drop 2500 on a custom rifle but not the 20 bucks a box for Match target ammo? I don't reload and I don't want to pay $20 for a box of 20rnds. I want something that can make hits in a few shots on targets out to say 800 meters. Even with the NDM your gonna have one hell of a time making shots out to 800 meters Especially using surplus ammo! What's even more a kick in the ass is the match stuff for the 7.62 x 54r is harder to find than the dozens of brands of .308 you can get. A bone stock Rem 700 with some nice glass will do with surplus Nato .308 that a SVD will do with match.. That is why I looked into the NDM-86. That and I'm seeing them in pics in Iraq and I really want one. We'll see...



Man for all you want this gun to do, your not going to be impressed alot with the accuracy of the NDM. If you like the way they look at have the $$$ to drop on a real russian or chinese SVD then by all means go for it. It will probably be nothing more than a uber cool Collectors piece still capable of sum nice Minute of Man accuracy.

The biggest argument I hear from people the AK side is Minute of Angle doesn't mean much because most engagement distances are with in 300 yds anyway. Something an AK can do very well with in. But When you start to talk about precision rifle shots especially walking a target to 800 yds the Minute of Angles starts to make a difference as well as match ammo.

Man not to be rude but your talking about Night and Day with these precision rifles. The only other semi auto than can come close to a bolt is the AR system. The SVD will be a nice investment that you can shoot and later sell for another rilfe. If you did go with the rem 700 GA package it would be for real use, and real accuracy (sub MOA). Which is pretty damn cool once you get into it.

If you have the money drop it on an SVD if you can find one. You can always get a Bolt later. SVDs will do nothing but go up in price as time continues.

Just my two cents , good luck with the SVD hunt if you choose to do so.
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 7:59:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cms81586:

Originally Posted By kythri:
Why don't you just send the Rem700 directly to Mike Rock?

Last time I checked, about $200 cheaper.



Don't have any contact info. I was planning to have other work done as well though. If you have Mikes info I'd appriciate it! Thanks,

CMS



www.rockcreekbarrels.com/

Link Posted: 2/22/2006 5:16:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/22/2006 5:18:03 AM EDT by Tomac]
I own 4 .308 NDM's and have put several thousand rds of 168gr match downrange with them so I'm speaking from personal experience. I am not a trained/professional shooter, I use cheap Russian 8x/3-9x optics and the Georgia Arms "Canned Heat" 168gr budget match ammo. My personal best 4-shot ctc group at 100yds is .44", my personal best 3-shot ctc group at 100yds is .24" and my personal best 4-shot ctc group at 500m is 4.5" (see pics). If the wind cooperates I can hit the 36" gong all day at 900m. A 20yr-old copy of a 40yr-old semi-auto design w/chromed bore should not be that accurate, especially right out of the box. If you want the most authenticity then get the '54 but if you want the most accuracy then get the .308. If you want a bolt gun then get a bolt gun, but the Dragunov is the only military semi-auto sniper/DM rifle designed from the ground up for that role. It's unique, rare and a real pleasure to shoot but it's not for everyone. HTH...
Tomac



Link Posted: 2/22/2006 5:32:13 AM EDT
It seems like $2700 is a lot of money to spend on a gun that'll do 1/2 MOA. I bet any new, quality bolt rifle will do that with a tasco scope and a knock-off harris.

I know my friend's $550 used Savage 110FP with a cheap Ncstar scope could.


Link Posted: 2/22/2006 5:42:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Chris_1522:
It seems like $2700 is a lot of money to spend on a gun that'll do 1/2 MOA. I bet any new, quality bolt rifle will do that with a tasco scope and a knock-off harris.

I know my friend's $550 used Savage 110FP with a cheap Ncstar scope could.





There is a huge difference between holding 1/2 MOA at 100, and doing that at 1000, grasshopper. Bring your tasco and your savage and snatch pebble from hand......

I say work on the Remington. Ditch the AICS idea. Have Mike install your barrel and lap your bolt. You can easily lap your own bolt. If you have a factory HS precision stock, bed it yourself. Watch the EE for a used Harris. I find them for $40 to $50 all the time. I also find scopes for $700 or less. I like the LR M3 variable, much cheaper than the MkIV fixed 10x you mention. Stop looking for the NDM, and then you will probably stumble on a good deal and will have saved enough money to be in ARFCOM fashion and "buy both".

Interesting post, because I had planned to send George my 700. I will probably send it directly to Mike. My gun shoots tight, but I want a new barrel, threaded for my Gemtech.....
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 7:46:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Tomac:
I own 4 .308 NDM's and have put several thousand rds of 168gr match downrange with them so I'm speaking from personal experience. I am not a trained/professional shooter, I use cheap Russian 8x/3-9x optics and the Georgia Arms "Canned Heat" 168gr budget match ammo. My personal best 4-shot ctc group at 100yds is .44", my personal best 3-shot ctc group at 100yds is .24" and my personal best 4-shot ctc group at 500m is 4.5" (see pics). If the wind cooperates I can hit the 36" gong all day at 900m. A 20yr-old copy of a 40yr-old semi-auto design w/chromed bore should not be that accurate, especially right out of the box. If you want the most authenticity then get the '54 but if you want the most accuracy then get the .308. If you want a bolt gun then get a bolt gun, but the Dragunov is the only military semi-auto sniper/DM rifle designed from the ground up for that role. It's unique, rare and a real pleasure to shoot but it's not for everyone. HTH...
Tomac
www.gunsnet.net/album/data//500/97New_8x42_Scope_For_NDM86_003s-med.jpg
www.gunsnet.net/album/data//500/972004-04-16_001s-med.jpg
www.gunsnet.net/album/data//500/97NDM-86_RangeReport2_005-med.JPG
www.gunsnet.net/album/data//500/97NDM-86_RangeReport2_009-med.JPG



Damn I want one of those guns in the worst way. Stop hording them
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 2:55:42 PM EDT
The M1A can outdo the AR... get a standard Springfield M-1A and then have a Douglas match barrel put on it, and pair it up with a good scope.

The NDM has collector intrest in it, which places it above most match guns. You can invest $1,000 in a match rifle and have it be worth the same as what you put into it, or buy a imported rifle and have the prices double overnight because of some new wierd ban being placed on them. The Chinese guns have already seen this happen, and due to more and more people sporterizing theirs, original rifles are going up in value.
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 3:33:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dskeet:
Damn I want one of those guns in the worst way. Stop hording them



No problem! Hock a kidney and one of my NDM's is yours!...
Tomac
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 4:04:33 PM EDT
In my estimation, semi-auto sustained fire is much better than any super precise bolt gun since most work would be inside of 500 meters. The Dragonav .308 offers such, sub MOA accuracy, Ak reliability, and a relatively lightweight system overall. If I honestly had the money I would own the SVD over the bolt gun any day. You can easily hit man sized targets to 1000 meters and if you miss- well you got nine more rounds to go.
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 4:51:22 PM EDT
1. Its Dragunov.

2. The Dragunov is NOT an AK. Totally different gas system.

The NDM and SVD and Tigr are Dragunov systems. The PSL and M-76 are AK type systems.
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