Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Posted: 2/5/2006 10:53:24 PM EDT
I have a AKMS from Ohio Rapid Fire with a stamped receiver. It is reliable but doesn't produce a grouping anywhere near that of my AR-15. I was wondering if any of you have solved the accuracy issue by using a milled receiver instead?

By the way, I came across this AKMS with a milled receiver from Arsenal Inc. I thought it was kind of expensive for an AK (with an MSRP of more than $1,000), but if it shoots like my AR, I might seriously consider it. Does anyone have any experience with this company?

I appreciate your feedback!
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 10:58:52 PM EDT
I have never shot an Arsenal and can not speak for them, save the great reviews they have. I shot my VEPR-k 76239 today and was getting 2.5MOA with Wolf ammo. Thats not quite AR grade accuracy but its still pretty damn good for an AK, IMHO.

Arsenal, VEPR, or Krebs would be your best bets. 5.45x39 shoots a little tighter that its big Russian brother but I prefer 762.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 11:07:25 PM EDT
The AK, though perhaps the most successful weapon in history will never group like an AR. Its a simple mechanical issue, and changing the reciever type will not help. The Vepr is one attempt at that, and though they are pretty accurate (about 2 moa, 100 yards), the mechanical differences between the AK and AR is the root cause of the accuracy gap. I wont bother to explain both mechanisms because im sure you are versed in their operation. However I will say this, the large moving mass that is the AK bolt, bolt carrier, and gas piston assembly causes alot of vibration and shock shot to shot (no a recoil buffer will not help this, usally they only aggrevate it). This inherantly affects the stability and therefore accuracy of the weapon, also the movement of the bolt carrier assembly is tethered to the barrel by the gas chamber, causing a fluttering of the barrel after each shot, you can actually see this effect with high speed cameras. Next the machining tolerances are nowhere near comparable. The AR is tightly machined for precision operation, the AK is more loosely machined for unbeliveable reliability. Its a trade off. And lastly, and perhaps most significantly, the bores and chambers of AKs can be anywhere from .310 to .311 inches in diameter, again, this was done intentionally to ensure correct feeding and cycling of the weapon even when the worst of ammo is used. All of these decisions were made intentionally and are clearly tradeoffs for reliability. I love my AK, more than any other rifle, I understand its strengths and limitations. Even though it will never group like your AR, do not ever underestimate the AK, practice has a HUGE affect on your accuracy with it, FAR FAR too many of our countries finest have been struck down by this weapon. NEVER underestimate it, no matter how much the AR guys bash it.

REMEMBER, the AR is more reliable than you might think, but the AK is more accurate than you might think.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 11:46:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Kalahnikid:
I have never shot an Arsenal and can not speak for them, save the great reviews they have. I shot my VEPR-k 76239 today and was getting 2.5MOA with Wolf ammo. Thats not quite AR grade accuracy but its still pretty damn good for an AK, IMHO.

Arsenal, VEPR, or Krebs would be your best bets. 5.45x39 shoots a little tighter that its big Russian brother but I prefer 762.




What would your AR group with Wolf ammo though?
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 1:54:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By GuitarGuy:
The AK, though perhaps the most successful weapon in history will never group like an AR. Its a simple mechanical issue, and changing the reciever type will not help. The Vepr is one attempt at that, and though they are pretty accurate (about 2 moa, 100 yards), the mechanical differences between the AK and AR is the root cause of the accuracy gap. I wont bother to explain both mechanisms because im sure you are versed in their operation. However I will say this, the large moving mass that is the AK bolt, bolt carrier, and gas piston assembly causes alot of vibration and shock shot to shot (no a recoil buffer will not help this, usally they only aggrevate it). This inherantly affects the stability and therefore accuracy of the weapon, also the movement of the bolt carrier assembly is tethered to the barrel by the gas chamber, causing a fluttering of the barrel after each shot, you can actually see this effect with high speed cameras. Next the machining tolerances are nowhere near comparable. The AR is tightly machined for precision operation, the AK is more loosely machined for unbeliveable reliability. Its a trade off. And lastly, and perhaps most significantly, the bores and chambers of AKs can be anywhere from .310 to .311 inches in diameter, again, this was done intentionally to ensure correct feeding and cycling of the weapon even when the worst of ammo is used. All of these decisions were made intentionally and are clearly tradeoffs for reliability. I love my AK, more than any other rifle, I understand its strengths and limitations. Even though it will never group like your AR, do not ever underestimate the AK, practice has a HUGE affect on your accuracy with it, FAR FAR too many of our countries finest have been struck down by this weapon. NEVER underestimate it, no matter how much the AR guys bash it.

REMEMBER, the AR is more reliable than you might think, but the AK is more accurate than you might think.



Damn dude you was reading my mine. Well said. I have seen a few good grouping AK's. Not many. Most folks don't know how to measure a group. There are far far more MOA shooting AK's on the internet than they ever will be at the range. The AK is the most reliable rifle I have ever owned for the grime it can take. It isn't a set up for a sniper platform , like the M16 can be configured to be. But I will say exactly what GuitarGuy stated. WarDawg

REMEMBER, the AR is more reliable than you might think, but the AK is more accurate than you might think.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 9:02:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By GenghisKhan:

Originally Posted By Kalahnikid:
I have never shot an Arsenal and can not speak for them, save the great reviews they have. I shot my VEPR-k 76239 today and was getting 2.5MOA with Wolf ammo. Thats not quite AR grade accuracy but its still pretty damn good for an AK, IMHO.

Arsenal, VEPR, or Krebs would be your best bets. 5.45x39 shoots a little tighter that its big Russian brother but I prefer 762.




What would your AR group with Wolf ammo though?



Last I shot my A4gery I remember it getting about 3ish moa with Wolf, but its been awhile! Point is that with I think a hinderence to good grouping AK's is the ammo. When all I have to go by on my VEPR is wolf obviously it wont do as well because hey, its wolf. But imagine having a Krebs KTR in 5.56, I bet one could do pretty damn well using all the good 5.56 out there.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 9:38:59 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 12:05:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Kalahnikid:

Originally Posted By GenghisKhan:

Originally Posted By Kalahnikid:
I have never shot an Arsenal and can not speak for them, save the great reviews they have. I shot my VEPR-k 76239 today and was getting 2.5MOA with Wolf ammo. Thats not quite AR grade accuracy but its still pretty damn good for an AK, IMHO.

Arsenal, VEPR, or Krebs would be your best bets. 5.45x39 shoots a little tighter that its big Russian brother but I prefer 762.




What would your AR group with Wolf ammo though?



Last I shot my A4gery I remember it getting about 3ish moa with Wolf, but its been awhile! Point is that with I think a hinderence to good grouping AK's is the ammo. When all I have to go by on my VEPR is wolf obviously it wont do as well because hey, its wolf. But imagine having a Krebs KTR in 5.56, I bet one could do pretty damn well using all the good 5.56 out there.





I have not shot them side by side yet but I am going to as soon as I can. However I think my .223 Vepr K is as accurate as my AR. Next time I get them both to the range I am going to shoot 4 or 5 types of ammo through both and see which one shoots more accurate.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 1:12:17 PM EDT
This is just my opinion. You normally see folks getting better groups out of the more ridged AK set up. Thicker Recievers and especially the MILLED AK's. Some AK's have the thicker barrel ( Verp I think ) as well as reciever. My milled MaK and Milled Arsenal SLR101S should tighter groups than any of my stamped ones. I have 2 Milled vs 5 Stamped. Do the Math... W You could go to Wally World and buy some Winnie White box 7.62x39 and see how it groups. It has to be better than 50% of the over seas stuffs. Cheers WarDawg
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 3:19:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GenghisKhan:

Originally Posted By Kalahnikid:

Originally Posted By GenghisKhan:

Originally Posted By Kalahnikid:
I have never shot an Arsenal and can not speak for them, save the great reviews they have. I shot my VEPR-k 76239 today and was getting 2.5MOA with Wolf ammo. Thats not quite AR grade accuracy but its still pretty damn good for an AK, IMHO.

Arsenal, VEPR, or Krebs would be your best bets. 5.45x39 shoots a little tighter that its big Russian brother but I prefer 762.




What would your AR group with Wolf ammo though?



Last I shot my A4gery I remember it getting about 3ish moa with Wolf, but its been awhile! Point is that with I think a hinderence to good grouping AK's is the ammo. When all I have to go by on my VEPR is wolf obviously it wont do as well because hey, its wolf. But imagine having a Krebs KTR in 5.56, I bet one could do pretty damn well using all the good 5.56 out there.





I have not shot them side by side yet but I am going to as soon as I can. However I think my .223 Vepr K is as accurate as my AR. Next time I get them both to the range I am going to shoot 4 or 5 types of ammo through both and see which one shoots more accurate.



That would be a range report Id love to see!
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 4:01:52 PM EDT
Use the Ak74 and the groups will improve.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 4:44:22 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 2:16:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Kalahnikid:

Originally Posted By GenghisKhan:

Originally Posted By Kalahnikid:

Originally Posted By GenghisKhan:

Originally Posted By Kalahnikid:
I have never shot an Arsenal and can not speak for them, save the great reviews they have. I shot my VEPR-k 76239 today and was getting 2.5MOA with Wolf ammo. Thats not quite AR grade accuracy but its still pretty damn good for an AK, IMHO.

Arsenal, VEPR, or Krebs would be your best bets. 5.45x39 shoots a little tighter that its big Russian brother but I prefer 762.




What would your AR group with Wolf ammo though?



Last I shot my A4gery I remember it getting about 3ish moa with Wolf, but its been awhile! Point is that with I think a hinderence to good grouping AK's is the ammo. When all I have to go by on my VEPR is wolf obviously it wont do as well because hey, its wolf. But imagine having a Krebs KTR in 5.56, I bet one could do pretty damn well using all the good 5.56 out there.





I have not shot them side by side yet but I am going to as soon as I can. However I think my .223 Vepr K is as accurate as my AR. Next time I get them both to the range I am going to shoot 4 or 5 types of ammo through both and see which one shoots more accurate.



That would be a range report Id love to see!




When I get a chance to I will post it and pictures. If the AR shoots the best then thats what I will say and if the AK shoots best then I will say it like it is.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 4:48:23 AM EDT
See my post here for a grouping and accuracy report. Not a 5.x cal. AK but is an Arsenal Inc. AK in 7.62. I can't shoot like that all the time. Need more trigger time behind it. It does show what the carbine is capable of when I do my part.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 9:39:04 AM EDT
This is interesting: New modification of AK design - this time with balanced automatic gas driven engine. "Balanced" means that this system has 2 opposite moving gas pistons instead of one. main gas piston drives bolt carrier (via gas rod), secondary piston drives compensating mass (via its own rod) in direction, opposite to bolt carrier. This movement greatly reduced muzzle jump and increased accuracy in full-auto mode. This is the new to me AK107 and AK 108: http://world.guns.ru/assault/as07-e.htm
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 9:54:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By GuitarGuy:
The AK, though perhaps the most successful weapon in history will never group like an AR. Its a simple mechanical issue, and changing the reciever type will not help. The Vepr is one attempt at that, and though they are pretty accurate (about 2 moa, 100 yards), the mechanical differences between the AK and AR is the root cause of the accuracy gap. I wont bother to explain both mechanisms because im sure you are versed in their operation. However I will say this, the large moving mass that is the AK bolt, bolt carrier, and gas piston assembly causes alot of vibration and shock shot to shot (no a recoil buffer will not help this, usally they only aggrevate it). This inherantly affects the stability and therefore accuracy of the weapon, also the movement of the bolt carrier assembly is tethered to the barrel by the gas chamber, causing a fluttering of the barrel after each shot, you can actually see this effect with high speed cameras. Next the machining tolerances are nowhere near comparable. The AR is tightly machined for precision operation, the AK is more loosely machined for unbeliveable reliability. Its a trade off. And lastly, and perhaps most significantly, the bores and chambers of AKs can be anywhere from .310 to .311 inches in diameter, again, this was done intentionally to ensure correct feeding and cycling of the weapon even when the worst of ammo is used. All of these decisions were made intentionally and are clearly tradeoffs for reliability. I love my AK, more than any other rifle, I understand its strengths and limitations. Even though it will never group like your AR, do not ever underestimate the AK, practice has a HUGE affect on your accuracy with it, FAR FAR too many of our countries finest have been struck down by this weapon. NEVER underestimate it, no matter how much the AR guys bash it.

REMEMBER, the AR is more reliable than you might think, but the AK is more accurate than you might think.



How do you explain VEPRs in .223 consistantly out shooting ARs. Its more the round thats being fired than the gun firing it. Yes vibration and tolerances so affect accuracy, But people are consistantly comparing the cheapest ak and the highest quality AR. If your gonna compare MOA you need to do it with the same round and ammo. Thats like me saying your ar sucks because my .308 VEPR will outshoot it. I bet you wont hold the same groups with that AR47 thing as you will with your standard AR. Just like you cant keep the same groups with an ak47 as you do with an ak74.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 12:21:52 PM EDT
How do you explain VEPRs in .223 consistantly out shooting ARs. Its more the round thats being fired than the gun firing it. Yes vibration and tolerances so affect accuracy, But people are consistantly comparing the cheapest ak and the highest quality AR. If your gonna compare MOA you need to do it with the same round and ammo. Thats like me saying your ar sucks because my .308 VEPR will outshoot it. I bet you wont hold the same groups with that AR47 thing as you will with your standard AR. Just like you cant keep the same groups with an ak47 as you do with an ak74.

I will try to explain (he, he). The Vepr has a hammer forged high quality barrel and chamber, a good trigger and a rigid receiver. Plus in 5.56mm, there is quality ammo available. Someone opined that receiver rigidty does'nt matter. I don't buy that for a second. Whatever components of the machine contribute to it's consistent operation does matter. If the receiver is flexing under recoil it will effect shot placement. I have an LMT M4 configured AR and it shoots about 1.5 MOA at 100 meters with Lake City 62 grain. I have an M1A that shoots sub MOA all day long with Lake City 173 gr. I haven'y weighed the reciprocating mass of a Vepr and an M!A, but I would guess that the M!A has more mass (op rod, bolt, and so on). So explain why the M!A more accurate?
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 2:06:36 PM EDT
Hey thanks guys...you are all a great help. I enjoyed reading the various theories behind why the AK47 (7.62) shoots the way it does. By the way, does anyone know where I can buy a good sling for my AKMS?
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 2:30:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BORG:
By the way, does anyone know where I can buy a good sling for my AKMS?



what nationality are you looking for? what nationality is your AKMS?
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 2:41:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 762bodydropper:
[

How do you explain VEPRs in .223 consistantly out shooting ARs. Its more the round thats being fired than the gun firing it. Yes vibration and tolerances so affect accuracy, But people are consistantly comparing the cheapest ak and the highest quality AR. If your gonna compare MOA you need to do it with the same round and ammo. Thats like me saying your ar sucks because my .308 VEPR will outshoot it. I bet you wont hold the same groups with that AR47 thing as you will with your standard AR. Just like you cant keep the same groups with an ak47 as you do with an ak74.



While I have never fired a Verp, I can't say what group size it might produce. But if a .223 Verp will out shoot a Standard ABC AR15 I would be impressed. Im not saying it won't.... And Im talking Irons at 100 and 200 yards... But I would have to see it to believe it. First and formost is the terrible sights on an AK for accuarte grouping. I am just talking paper here, because thats what we are discussing paper groups size. MOA . I will agree the stiffer barrel and reciever should and Im sure add to the Verps accuaracy. Im told they hold good groups. I almost bought a Verp but it was in 7.62 and I wanted .223, WarDawg
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 6:32:08 PM EDT
DD214 You misunderstood. I know why VEPRs are so accurate. But you stated that AK47 werent as accurate as AR15s...I was stating that you said they arent as accurate then how come they hold tighter groups? Kinda of a retorical question...

WarDog, I have never shot the 2 rifles side by side to compare groups. But ask anyone who has both and they will tell you that thier VEPR is just as accurate, if not more, as thier AR.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 10:34:38 PM EDT
ive got a milled Arsenal SA-M5s,.....when loaded with SS-109 and vs. a 16in. AR (regular plain jane barrel) shooting same ammo,.with iron sights. it is basically a tie on accuracy. IT MOSTLY DEPENDS ON THE USER

i sold my ar to buy this rifle,..and i couldent be happier,...way easier to use,.clean,. and maintain,..shoots smoother that any ar,. m-4/m-16 i had ever fired,..ballenced way better than a ar,..and my personal favorite is that you dont have to listen to that got damn recoil spring go twang in you ear after every shot

me and the guy with the ar where both in the army and both qualified expert with the m-4,.and m-16a2 respectivally,.... i would like to get together with him again and set up zero targets at 25m and see how each rifle groups.

do i really think the diffrence in a 2in. group versus a .75in group really matters?,....not unless im in a bench shooting compation for a large sum of money

as long i can hit what i am aiming at i am happy.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 1:55:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By cruzie27:
ive got a milled Arsenal SA-M5s,.....when loaded with SS-109 and vs. a 16in. AR (regular plain jane barrel) shooting same ammo,.with iron sights. it is basically a tie on accuracy. IT MOSTLY DEPENDS ON THE USER

i sold my ar to buy this rifle,..and i couldent be happier,...way easier to use,.clean,. and maintain,..shoots smoother that any ar,. m-4/m-16 i had ever fired,..ballenced way better than a ar,..and my personal favorite is that you dont have to listen to that got damn recoil spring go twang in you ear after every shot

me and the guy with the ar where both in the army and both qualified expert with the m-4,.and m-16a2 respectivally,.... i would like to get together with him again and set up zero targets at 25m and see how each rifle groups.

do i really think the diffrence in a 2in. group versus a .75in group really matters?,....not unless im in a bench shooting compation for a large sum of money

as long i can hit what i am aiming at i am happy.



25 m targets are not where they seem to get seperated. Take the rifle out to 100M then to 200m and next 300m and fire 5 shot groups,( Iron sights ) off the bench and record for both rifles. . I believe the MILLED AK can be very accurate. Personal experiance. But the standard iron sights are not made for longer accurate shooting. The AR/M16 is. If you have a accurate AK swap the rears out for a Red star arms MOGO sight. Sometype of peep set up. That should help alot. Go get this months Small Arm Review and check out the articule on( DMR M16 ) that the Army and Marines are useing . 20 shots fired from 600m , in rapid fire, all shots inside the 10 ring. Thats impressive. Then goes on to a battle where a platton was in a pinch and the DMR at 600m out was tearing there ass ( Bad guys) up, and took the heat off of the good guys pinned down. Killed alot of bad guys with honed M16's from that distance.
Just to add I have a Bulgie Milled and a Chicom Milled and they are accurate. I need to group them and see what they will do. I only got Wolf though. The Milled rifles are the only way to go if I could only have one. Very smooth.....WarDawg
Top Top