Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Posted: 2/1/2006 3:43:33 PM EDT
I am not sure if you are allowed to flame an EE ad over here, but I am sure I will find out soon.

www.ak47.net/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=123&t=326228

The likely customers of these are inexperienced builders who don't have the skills or tools to evaluate whether they are set right or not. I think the ad is misleading and could result in injury.

There are many people who have built guns with these, but you have to be able to evaluate whether you have a good hold on the existing rivets, and if they are potentially going to back out. These are not a proven method like screws or rivets. I have even bought some to try from mcmaster carr(at $3/100).

Once again my main objection is that the rookies are the most likely to try these out. Just walking the drill a little reduces the holding strength of these.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 4:00:49 PM EDT
Absolutly no way I would use those. I think people need to understand, these are firearms we are building, not toys. My opinion (and only my opinion) those have a serious safety issue.

Link Posted: 2/1/2006 4:00:50 PM EDT
Good point. If something is too good to be true... it probably is. Approach with caution......it ain't a rivet.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 4:09:43 PM EDT
They can work. Winn over at gunco has done several builds with them. He also shot a mag with the trunnions held in with toothpicks. It just a matter of somebody with no mechanical skill buying them as a shotcut, not as an experiment.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 4:10:59 PM EDT
+1 I worked construction for 20 years, these "screws" are crap, I've tried them before and they don't hold. If anyone uses these in a build, I think they're an idiot asking for trouble ...
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 4:16:29 PM EDT
As a machinist and toolmaker by trade, I certianly don't think I would use those to put an AK together. We had them in the die shop where I worked last and the only think we used them for was attaching name/number plates to the front of die shoes. These are not as strong as rivets or screws. That's not an opinion, it's fact. The question is weather or not they need to be.

But that said, AKs aren't stamping dies. All the chamber pressure is absorbed by the front trunnion and the barrel and bolt. Not the sheet metal receiver. All the receiver does is guide the bolt carrier, hold the FCG, and provide a mounting point for the stock and PG.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 4:24:51 PM EDT
actually, there was a thread in the builder's forum, they seem to work out pretty well
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 4:36:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By robpiat:

Once again my main objection is that the rookies are the most likely to try these out. Just walking the drill a little reduces the holding strength of these.



Good point.

I must admit I would not have considered building an AK if it was not for the drive screw post.

I just purchased a Romanian kit and a OOW receiver is on the way. I will be using a quality drill press and vise to drill the rivets. Anyone attempting to use a hand drill should take your post to heart.

I am gathering opinions as to whether or not Lock-Tite or a similar product would be useful with drive screws. Your thoughts?

Thanks for your concern.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 4:39:32 PM EDT
how are screw builds in general....do you trust them?
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 5:56:14 PM EDT
If people that want to do their own bullds would try to use rivits,
they would realize just how easy they really are to build with.

I dont see the fascination with the screw builds...

KyARGuy
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 6:07:49 PM EDT
Sorry the rivot builds are to easy.

I'll pass.

FREE
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 9:20:17 PM EDT
Once again for those that might be defending this....I am not saying they won't work....I am saying that a rookie won't know the difference...
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 9:23:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/1/2006 9:25:25 PM EDT by thedukeryan]
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 12:43:04 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 4:48:54 AM EDT
I have ben down the screw build route but after a few rivet builds I will not go back riveting is not terribly hard and looks more authentic. as far as these drive screws it looks like a neat Idea but I am very sceptical and would like to see several 10,00 rd torture tests done by reliable builders before I would think of recomending it armchair gunsmithing is too easy. As far as the add yea the Items are way overpriced but so are most rivet adds I mean think about it $10 for a rivet set, but hey that is capitilism nobody makes you buy them. Did you ever pay attention to some of the prices in some convenience stores? I mean they gripe about the gas at 2.25/gal and then go in a pay 1.25 for a small bottle of water????As far as injury the ak locks in the trunion so the only force against the fastners would be the recoil if there were a failure then the gun should simply stop working because the front trunion slid out the front of the receiver, Not a very pretty site but I douubt it would be any more life threatenting than some of the build injuries I keep hearing about
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 5:28:37 AM EDT
Hey, the guy is offering a complete set to construct using this method- What gouging? Nobody has to buy. And, there isn't ANYTHING sold on the EE that some "rookie" can/will F-up
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 5:34:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By usjet:
Hey, the guy is offering a complete set to construct using this method- What gouging? Nobody has to buy. And, there isn't ANYTHING sold on the EE that some "rookie" can/will F-up




This is not a specialty or hard to find item. They sell for $3-$4 a hundred locally. Unfortunately he is taking advantage of people that are unfamiliar with them.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 6:03:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By robpiat:

Originally Posted By usjet:
Hey, the guy is offering a complete set to construct using this method- What gouging? Nobody has to buy. And, there isn't ANYTHING sold on the EE that some "rookie" can/will F-up




This is not a specialty or hard to find item. They sell for $3-$4 a hundred locally. Unfortunately he is taking advantage of people that are unfamiliar with them.


Yeah, I get your point, but there's people who pay $12 for a contraption to replace shepard's hooks, which are free with every ak, and have worked just fine in millions of weapons, guys who pay hundreds and wait months to have someone else build their kit and end up with crap, guys who pay $169 for a Romy "G" kit, when you can still get 'em for $89. I can completely re-finish 3 guns to new with $27.00 worth of Moly-coat, while someone else might pay $150 to have 1 gun done by someone else.
There was an old gunsmith who had a customer bring in a revolver in a shoebox- the guy had taken it apart and couldn't get it back together. The smith re-assembled the gun and presented the customer with a bill for for $50. "How come so much?" the customer asked angrily. " Well," the 'smith replied," it's 5 bucks to put it back together, and 45 for knowing how"
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 6:04:06 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 9:04:48 AM EDT
Here is what appears to be price gouging unless I am reading the guys ad wrong. $180.00 for a Ewbanks receiver?
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 9:17:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Mak:
Here is what appears to be price gouging unless I am reading the guys ad wrong. $180.00 for a Ewbanks receiver?



You can't compare the prices you pay to what they pay in other countries. They cannot have AK's there so any periphenalia sells at a premium.

The price for a ewbanks receiver in America has no correlation to what they might sell for in California.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 9:23:32 AM EDT
There is another way to look at this. Which involves more risk. Removing/reinstalling the barrel? Or inadequately attaching the trunnion to the receiver? If the trunnion doesn’t get attached correctly/well to the receiver, the only risk is that the gun will not work (see Preachers post). But if the barrel/trunnion configuration gets screwed up, the rifle is potentially unsafe to the shooter and bystanders.

Now I am set up for and will continue to use rivets. But if I had to blindly shoot an untested rookies home build, I would rather it was a drive screw job than a rivet job.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 9:29:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ozzy_the_nuke:
There is another way to look at this. Which involves more risk. Removing/reinstalling the barrel? Or inadequately attaching the trunnion to the receiver? If the trunnion doesn’t get attached correctly/well to the receiver, the only risk is that the gun will not work (see Preachers post). But if the barrel/trunnion configuration gets screwed up, the rifle is potentially unsafe to the shooter and bystanders.

Now I am set up for and will continue to use rivets. But if I had to blindly shoot an untested rookies home build, I would rather it was a drive screw job than a rivet job.



I see what you are saying but disagree. The drive screws are not put directly into the trunnion. They are put through the rivets after a hole has been drilled through the demilled rivets. I think that this process is inherently unpredictable. How many times have you had a rivet just fall right out or spin when you were drilling it?

If the rivet stays solid, the drive screw is solid.

Not to mention, alot of kits are already demilled with slightly egged trunion holes. The drive screws will not work with the hardened steel in the trunnion....The trunnion will just shave the threads off the drive screw. For them to work, they need to be driven into a metal that is softer than they are so they can cut in.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 9:56:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By robpiat:

Originally Posted By Mak:
Here is what appears to be price gouging unless I am reading the guys ad wrong. $180.00 for a Ewbanks receiver?



You can't compare the prices you pay to what they pay in other countries. They cannot have AK's there so any periphenalia sells at a premium.

The price for a ewbanks receiver in America has no correlation to what they might sell for in California.



Did they stop selling them to California this month? They were selling them there last month.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 10:20:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Mak:

Originally Posted By robpiat:

Originally Posted By Mak:
Here is what appears to be price gouging unless I am reading the guys ad wrong. $180.00 for a Ewbanks receiver?



You can't compare the prices you pay to what they pay in other countries. They cannot have AK's there so any periphenalia sells at a premium.

The price for a ewbanks receiver in America has no correlation to what they might sell for in California.



Did they stop selling them to California this month? They were selling them there last month.




Agreed.. If he paid $150, he's either stupid or dumb.. And Why would you advertise the fact that you are selling it for a $30 profit...
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 10:55:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/2/2006 11:24:50 AM EDT by ozzy_the_nuke]

Originally Posted By robpiat:

Originally Posted By ozzy_the_nuke:
There is another way to look at this. Which involves more risk. Removing/reinstalling the barrel? Or inadequately attaching the trunnion to the receiver? If the trunnion doesn’t get attached correctly/well to the receiver, the only risk is that the gun will not work (see Preachers post). But if the barrel/trunnion configuration gets screwed up, the rifle is potentially unsafe to the shooter and bystanders.

Now I am set up for and will continue to use rivets. But if I had to blindly shoot an untested rookies home build, I would rather it was a drive screw job than a rivet job.



I see what you are saying but disagree. The drive screws are not put directly into the trunnion. They are put through the rivets after a hole has been drilled through the demilled rivets. I think that this process is inherently unpredictable. How many times have you had a rivet just fall right out or spin when you were drilling it?

If the rivet stays solid, the drive screw is solid.

Not to mention, alot of kits are already demilled with slightly egged trunion holes. The drive screws will not work with the hardened steel in the trunnion....The trunnion will just shave the threads off the drive screw. For them to work, they need to be driven into a metal that is softer than they are so they can cut in.



You are not disagreeing with me. I havent made any claim as to how well drive screws will work. I am still thinking about that. I am only saying that a bad rivet job has the potential to be more unsafe than a bad drive screw job. The advantage of the drive screw method is that it avoids safety problems that can be created when pulling or reinstalling the barrel. I am just weighing the potential risks.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 12:09:16 PM EDT
Ouch. Nothing like being called an idiot. I was the one who started the tacked drive screw thread in the BIY forum, and I am not feeling the love here. The only reason I did my drive screw build is because I had a kit, a receiver, and some drive screws and some time to kill. Since I did my build I have about 500 rounds through it with no problems with it. Granted, that isn't 10,000 rounds, but I don't see any problems developing yet. I am not saying that this is the newest, greatest way to build AKs, but I did propose it as an alternative to rivets. By the way, all my other builds are riveted, (about 12 or so others). I promise I will keep the group posted if I have any problems with my build. Just remember it was only a couple years ago that we didn't have any way to fold our own receivers, but some guys thought outside the box and made a way to do that. Not to mention that our boltcutter rivet smasher was also brought about by a forward thinking AK builder. My advice all along has been "if you don't feel confident building like this... DON'T".
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 12:16:43 PM EDT
I would just like to add that I have fired an AK with no trunnion rivets (or screws or toothpicks, etc). In my case, the front trunnion edged forward slightly with each shot. I stopped before the rifle malfunctioned. I only fired a few shots. I am sure that if I had continued, the rifle would have malfunctioned. At worst, barrel and trunnion could have fallen out of the front of the receiver. That would be embarrassing, but not dangerous. At first I was puzzled. I had expected the trunnion to work backward due to recoil. But, upon closer examination I realized that the cover and magazine keep the trunnion from going backwards. But nothing keeps it from going forward. Each time the carrier slammed forward, the trunnion got bumped forward a little.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 12:34:18 PM EDT
I'm sure they would work fine with Marine-Tex or JB Weld.

<­BR>



Top Top