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Posted: 1/28/2006 9:25:00 PM EDT
What (mechanically) could one do to make their AK shoot tighter groups? This is just a hypothetical question as I have been hunting for an SAR-1 and notice people saying that the gun for sale is "pretty accurate for an AK", or "the most accurate AK I have ever shot". These are some rather subjective statements as one man's 'best shooting AK ever' is going to be someone elses' pile of junk.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 9:45:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/28/2006 9:55:33 PM EDT by MillerTime85]

Originally Posted By ShineyM3:
What (mechanically) could one do to make their AK shoot tighter groups? This is just a hypothetical question as I have been hunting for an SAR-1 and notice people saying that the gun for sale is "pretty accurate for an AK", or "the most accurate AK I have ever shot". These are some rather subjective statements as one man's 'best shooting AK ever' is going to be someone elses' pile of junk.



I dont think there is a whole lot you can do to make a major improvement, they were not designed to be tack drivers. They were made to hold a tight enough group to hit a man, they werent considering your groups on paper. As much as I hate commies, I have to say the AK did what it was designed to do.. it armed a lot of poorly trained people cheaply with a low maintenance, durable, reliable, simple yet deadly weapon. But I'm not doggin the ak by any means, as it is the favorite in my cabinet, but you have to understand what the rifle was made for. The only thing you can really do without changing into something that isnt an ak is keep it clean and use quality ammo if your looking for the best groups possible. But when I'm shooting the ak, most of the time all I do is have a hell of a lot of fun and try to make my target look like swiss cheese by the time I am finished shooting it.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 9:56:46 PM EDT
Get a metal stamp and put "NM" Near the serial # and on the barrel.

These 2 letters alone, placed on any weapon, are enough to increase the accuracy.

Companies have been doing it for years...

KyARGuy
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 10:03:14 PM EDT
I read an article awhile back. Some of the remarks were to remove the cleaning rod, have it headspaced tight, Tighten any loose parts, make sure your muzzle brake/FH is fixed and has zero wobble. It has to be tight. There are a few other tricks with the handguards in the way they touch the barrel but I forgot. I'm sure some more knowlegeable people will be along soon to elaborate more.
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 6:44:46 AM EDT
You wouldn't happen to remember where this article was would ya? Actually, is there a really good AK book out there that really goes into this stuff? I've searched around a bit and have still come up empty...
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 7:17:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/29/2006 7:21:41 AM EDT by sgtstinger]
The easiest thing would be to use quality ammo...but with increased quality comes increased price.

Don't get me wrong, I've burned my fair share of Wolf ammo in the past and will likely do so in the future, but it is not what could be considered as "target grade" ammunition. Neither would most of the inexpensive Russian-made AK 7.62x39 ammo out there.

In the not-too-distant past, there has been Yugoslavian and East German ammo that has been VERY accurate. Unfortunately, it was also corrosive but that's not a problem if you thouroughly clean your rifle after shooting it.

I'm personally waiting until Cheetah ammo becomes available again. Cheetah is/was carried by Vector Arms and last time I checked, they were OUT... It's made in Zimbabwe on Chinese-made tooling(Chinese ammo was also darn good until it stopped being imported, but that's another story...) and I've heard a couple of first-hand reports that it's noticeably more accurate than Wolf, Barnaul, and Ulynovsk. Yeah, I know Zimbabwe is a festering shit-hole run by that racist lunatic, Robert Mugabe...but I'm going to hold my nose and buy some of the ammo anyway. Post-Communist Russia still isn't exactly what I'd call a Human-Rights paradise, either...

I also saw some Romanian soft point HERE but it's still a little pricey at $98 for 700rounds. Still, with ammo getting more expensive and sometimes impossible to find, it might be worth a try...

Just try a wide variety of ammo then buy a shit-load of what works best in your particular rifle...

Short of sending your rifle somewhere for some possibly very expensive work(maybe more than the rifle is worth!), that's what I'd recommend.
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 7:19:55 AM EDT
How to make an AK more accurate...?


Sell it and buy a Vepr.
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 7:23:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BiggerStick47:
How to make an AK more accurate...?


Sell it and buy a Vepr.



Well, that's another option...

I guess VEPR's have a following for a reason...
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 7:23:36 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 7:27:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sgtstinger:

Originally Posted By BiggerStick47:
How to make an AK more accurate...?


Sell it and buy a Vepr.



Well, that's another option...

I guess VEPR's have a following for a reason...



Ouch! Actually the above advice on qualiy ammo is probably your best bet.
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 7:58:35 AM EDT
Great advice, thanks guys. Again, the simplicity of the design raises its head as the consensus seems to be:

-make sure your gun is not falling apart and in good repair

-use decent ammo

I have a feeling that if I were to ask the same question of the AR group I would get a different response! ...Get out the electron microscope....cut each grain into 10ths....
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 8:26:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/29/2006 8:46:25 AM EDT by DeltaDelta214]
Your weapon is a machine. The more uniform each cycle of the machine, the more uniform the overall operation. Welcome to the machine.
Accuracy achieved by mechanical improvement: 1) good headspace and chamber (as previously noted; you don't want much distance from the chamber throat to where the rifling starts, so the bullet doesn't have to make a long jump; 2) good barrel; here you are looking for consistency (hammer forged for instance); you give up a little accuracy with chrome lined, but without the chrome lining you give up some durability; I would stay with chrome; 3) closer tolerances: you are simply looking for the weapon to operate the same with each round, so each cycle is as much the same as possible. Maybe a match piston? How about a titanium piston to reduce the inertia of each cycle? Of course, tighter tolerances reduce reliability. 4) Good trigger; again a consistent predictable trigger with a clean break. 5) barrel tension; again you want consistent tension (shooting from a sand bag will give different results that using a sling or a bipod. As the barrel heats or cools, point of impact will change, clean versus dirty barrel will change POI.
Accuracy achieved by good ammo: 1) You look for consistency in the load of each round (how many grains of powder) etc 2) Consistency in bullet weight, seating. crimp and so on. Of couse with match ammo, you are paying for this consistency; with surplus you get lower consistency.
Another variable is ergonomics. It's pretty well accepted that stocks that are inline with the barrel lead to less recoil and more controlability. You might pick up a five or ten round mag so you don't have to deal with the mag as a monopod (just for wringing it out for accuracy, sighting in and so on.
Maybe keep a log book and note weather and wind condiitons with each shoot. Learn how to read the wind (mirage observations etc). I realize my answer goes beyond the sope of your question. Just trying to be helpful. And above all have fun!
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 9:04:44 AM EDT
Scope it
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 9:08:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BiggerStick47:
How to make an AK more accurate...?


Sell it and buy a Vepr.


You beat me to it!!!
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 9:28:01 AM EDT
Somebody had mentioned that his non-chromed lined barreled Yugo M70 was proving to be the most accurate of the multiple AK's he'd owned hitting a barrel at 400 yards consistently.
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 10:08:07 AM EDT
Chrome-lined barrels are from what I hear, inheretly less accurate than non-lined ones because the chrome layer is not completely uniform in thickness and these variations affect accuracy. how much? I don't know, I am not an expert. Get a stainless barrel for your AK just like the match grade ARs which use non-line stainless barrels. do they even make these?
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 10:39:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/30/2006 5:18:09 PM EDT by AndrewB]
In shooting my AK, I find that the inaccuracy seems to come from the iron sights. I can shoot tight little groups at 25 and 50m, but beyond that I end up with a partial group of 2-3" or so with another 2" or so group off to the left. It's really hard to maintain a perfect sight picture with those sights compared to the sights on an AR.

I'm plan on trying out a Mojo replacement rear sight (aperture) or a russian scope and see if that helps.

EDIT: Whoops. Thanks HUNGARYAN.
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 1:30:14 PM EDT
The following is not Science - it's just my personal experience....

As I needed to install US pistons on a number of builds anyway, I started to violate conventioanl wisdom and install them TIGHT - no slop, no wiggle. To my amazement, all of the builds done this way have been VERY accurate. I have a bulgarian 223 kit (bought long ago when KVAR had such items) on a GT that is frighteningly accurate... and its gas piston has been installed with ZERO wiggle.
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 1:48:16 PM EDT
By design, all AK-74 rifles in 5.56 and 5.45 are more accurate.

What can you do? Add a good scope, use better ammo, make the handgaurds fit tighter into their slots and sand away the wood closest to the barrel... get one of those goofy looking barrel add ons to improve harmonics... take out the cleaning rod... stuff like that.
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 1:51:19 PM EDT
add a scope.....

seriously.

Better than irons. But if you can't use irons...practice first.
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 1:54:47 PM EDT
I have an Sar3 with a kobra that does very well. It also has the RSA fcg. I have a vepr in 308 that is also decent. Those are the only two I have found aceptable out of my collection which consists of about 20+ AKs. The Sar1 might be the worst. I gave up on an acurate AK. Its like saying I want a car that makes 500 horsepower and gets 30miles per gallon. You get one or the other. The design is just not productive for both. AKs don't have to be acurate thats why they have 30rd clips. If you want a tack driver then the proper design is a bolt gun. CB
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 3:15:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AndrewB:
In shooting my AK, I find that the inaccuracy seems to come from the iron sights. I can shoot tight little groups at 25 and 50m, but beyond that I end up with a partial group of 2-3" or so with another 2" or so group off to the left. It's really hard to maintain a perfect sight picture with those sights compared to the sights on an AR.

I'm plan on trying out a MOJO replacement rear sight (aperture) or a russian scope and see if that helps.



Fixed it for ya
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 3:18:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/29/2006 3:31:35 PM EDT by MauserMark]
buy or roll your own match ammo, group size will decrease.

or get an AK well built in 223, buy match 223 ammo, which is readily available.

or you can just buy a vepr
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 4:54:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MauserMark:


or you can just buy a vepr



Stop Mark, they won't listen..........
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 5:20:28 PM EDT
The ultimate accurate AK (IMHO):

5.56mm VEPR K (yes, the 16" model)
10 round poly magazine from Arsenal
Black Hills ammo
A scope with a cross hair reticule, on the optic rail
RSA two stage trigger (do they make one for this model?)
cryo'd and crowned barrel

I believe it is possible to freefloat an AK barrel, but this would be a 100% custom job.

I think this much effort would get you a consistant 1.5 moa AK.

Or you could buy an AR.

ducks the rotten vegetables for the second time tonight...
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 5:54:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Trotsky:
The following is not Science - it's just my personal experience....

As I needed to install US pistons on a number of builds anyway, I started to violate conventioanl wisdom and install them TIGHT - no slop, no wiggle. To my amazement, all of the builds done this way have been VERY accurate. I have a bulgarian 223 kit (bought long ago when KVAR had such items) on a GT that is frighteningly accurate... and its gas piston has been installed with ZERO wiggle.




My piston wiggles alot. Is there any way to tighten it up? Or do I just need a new piston?
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 5:59:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/29/2006 6:01:18 PM EDT by MauserMark]

Originally Posted By Yingster:

Originally Posted By Trotsky:
The following is not Science - it's just my personal experience....

As I needed to install US pistons on a number of builds anyway, I started to violate conventioanl wisdom and install them TIGHT - no slop, no wiggle. To my amazement, all of the builds done this way have been VERY accurate. I have a bulgarian 223 kit (bought long ago when KVAR had such items) on a GT that is frighteningly accurate... and its gas piston has been installed with ZERO wiggle.




My piston wiggles alot. Is there any way to tighten it up? Or do I just need a new piston?



supposed to be that way from what others on here have said. My 74 was made by the man Chris Butler at AK-USA, those guys know their stuff. It had the similar "loose" piston, but it is very accurate. The Century WASRs have a welded tight piston, and they're not very accurate guns.

-mark
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 11:35:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Thekatar:
The ultimate accurate AK (IMHO):

5.56mm VEPR K (yes, the 16" model)
10 round poly magazine from Arsenal
Black Hills ammo
A scope with a cross hair reticule, on the optic rail
RSA two stage trigger (do they make one for this model?)
cryo'd and crowned barrel

I believe it is possible to freefloat an AK barrel, but this would be a 100% custom job.

I think this much effort would get you a consistant 1.5 moa AK.

Or you could buy an AR.

ducks the rotten vegetables for the second time tonight...



Sometimes I wonder why you even post here.
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 12:11:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/30/2006 12:12:22 PM EDT by ShineyM3]
Your piston wiggels alot? You might wanna see a doctor about that!
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 12:15:35 PM EDT
What's the difference between teh RSA 2 stage trigger and the Tapco G2?
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 12:16:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/30/2006 12:17:35 PM EDT by ShineyM3]
Mauser Mark, who's MP44 was that in your picture?...was your picture IIRC...right?
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 1:02:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BiggerStick47:
Sometimes I wonder why you even post here.



Why?

Are you going to call me a troll? If you do I suggest you get some more proof.

I answered the guy's question about how to make an AK more accurate - you didn't.

Ultimately we both told him to buy a VEPR. I fail to see the problem - looks to me like you're just trying to start shit.

If you'd like to introduce any more drama here you can IM me so we can spare these nice people the resulting soap opera.

Have a nice day.
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 1:14:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Thekatar:

Originally Posted By BiggerStick47:
Sometimes I wonder why you even post here.



If you'd like to introduce any more drama here you can IM me so we can spare these nice people the resulting soap opera.




No thanks, I think most people already know you're a troll. But you have a nice day too.
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 1:20:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ShineyM3:
You wouldn't happen to remember where this article was would ya? Actually, is there a really good AK book out there that really goes into this stuff? I've searched around a bit and have still come up empty...



When I asked it was almost as if it was taboo. I found my answer by searching yahoo and other search engines for several hours. I don't have the link saved but the info is out there.
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 1:36:20 PM EDT
Here you go...

This looks good with alot of info. I'll have to read more on it after I get home.

www.akfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=345

Link Posted: 1/30/2006 2:23:06 PM EDT
"The Century WASRs have a welded tight piston, and they're not very accurate guns"

I'm afraid there are other reasons for that :) They DO generally fire... sometimes, even in the direction of the enemy :)

No - I was refering to those guns that we build... I've just noticed that, all other things being high quality (like a Bulgy kit), my builds just seem to do better with tight pistons. Oh - got one of Chris's builds - wonderful '74, very clean, accurate. I'm probably biased - MY '74 builds seem a wee bit more accurate :)
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 2:24:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Q-gunner2:
By design, all AK-74 rifles in 5.56 and 5.45 are more accurate.

What can you do? Add a good scope, use better ammo, make the handgaurds fit tighter into their slots and sand away the wood closest to the barrel... get one of those goofy looking barrel add ons to improve harmonics... take out the cleaning rod... stuff like that.



What proof do you have of that statement?
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 4:43:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Thekatar:
The ultimate accurate AK (IMHO):

5.56mm VEPR K (yes, the 16" model)
10 round poly magazine from Arsenal
Black Hills ammo
A scope with a cross hair reticule, on the optic rail
RSA two stage trigger (do they make one for this model?)
cryo'd and crowned barrel

I believe it is possible to freefloat an AK barrel, but this would be a 100% custom job.

I think this much effort would get you a consistant 1.5 moa AK.

Or you could buy an AR.

ducks the rotten vegetables for the second time tonight...



Does Black Hills still make 7.62x39mm? I don't see it on their website. They do have a great rep though, must be good stuff.
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 5:08:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dawg180:

Originally Posted By Q-gunner2:
By design, all AK-74 rifles in 5.56 and 5.45 are more accurate.

What can you do? Add a good scope, use better ammo, make the handgaurds fit tighter into their slots and sand away the wood closest to the barrel... get one of those goofy looking barrel add ons to improve harmonics... take out the cleaning rod... stuff like that.



What proof do you have of that statement?



Some believe that the 5.56 and 5.45 are inherently more accurate cartridges.
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 6:05:28 PM EDT
I haven't read thread yet. All I will do is quote kokalis saying there are four aspects to accuracy.

barrel, trigger, optic mount, ammo.

AK comes standard with only the optic mount being truly satisfactry at least on milled AK's.
Most of the gun 'experts' when accurizing AK's first thing they do is call krieger.
Then you get an RSA trigger.
Then you make your own ammo.

When AKUSA is done with my SAiga 308 it should be a tackdriver. only cause the barrels that are on them are ok, I hear good barrels on super vepr and vepr's in general too. Might be safe to say any foriegn AK from russia is acceptable, at least more so than a romy or yugo. Arsenals are american, so they don't count!
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 6:27:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ShineyM3:
What's the difference between teh RSA 2 stage trigger and the Tapco G2?



RSA trigger is adjustable for travel, over travel, and sear engagement.

Can be adjusted to a very nice clean 3-4Lb pull.

And they are about $45 more than the G2.

KyARGuy
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 6:34:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Kyarguy:

Originally Posted By ShineyM3:
What's the difference between teh RSA 2 stage trigger and the Tapco G2?



RSA trigger is adjustable for travel, over travel, and sear engagement.

Can be adjusted to a very nice clean 3-4Lb pull.

And they are about $45 more than the G2.

KyARGuy



G2 is FIIIIINE. GREAT trigger. But, RSA can be made into a dual stage trigger as sweet as your RRA.

I liek G2's for quick bang bang bang work, RSA for longer ranged guns.
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 7:11:59 PM EDT
G2 it is! What would be a good price to find them for on the EE? Does anybody happen to know if Tapco has a retail location? I noticed that their mailing address is only about 25 minutes from me. Thanks again all for the input, I appeciate it! Just for the record, the SAR I am hunting for will be my first 'real' gun and from what I have been able to tell they have a great fun factor without being too pricey. I have no doubt that when I can better appreciate something like the VEPR I'll get one. So if I can just find that SAR-1, I'll be all set!
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 6:16:20 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 6:22:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ShineyM3:
Mauser Mark, who's MP44 was that in your picture?...was your picture IIRC...right?



belongs to a fellow TX member
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 6:24:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Trotsky:
"The Century WASRs have a welded tight piston, and they're not very accurate guns"

I'm afraid there are other reasons for that :) They DO generally fire... sometimes, even in the direction of the enemy :)

No - I was refering to those guns that we build... I've just noticed that, all other things being high quality (like a Bulgy kit), my builds just seem to do better with tight pistons. Oh - got one of Chris's builds - wonderful '74, very clean, accurate. I'm probably biased - MY '74 builds seem a wee bit more accurate :)



I looked at it last night, what can you do to tighten the piston/carrier fit that can be reversed later?
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 6:26:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ShineyM3:
G2 it is! What would be a good price to find them for on the EE? Does anybody happen to know if Tapco has a retail location? I noticed that their mailing address is only about 25 minutes from me. Thanks again all for the input, I appeciate it! Just for the record, the SAR I am hunting for will be my first 'real' gun and from what I have been able to tell they have a great fun factor without being too pricey. I have no doubt that when I can better appreciate something like the VEPR I'll get one. So if I can just find that SAR-1, I'll be all set!



Where are you in GA? Im in Woodstock, and 762 is in Douglasville. If you want we could all make a range trip as suggested by RS39. Shoot me an IM. Tapco does have a retail locationin Kennesaw, but no showroom. You just go in and tell them what you want from the catalog. Also, I think GA member Anykey had a SAR 1 for sell, you should IM him and see if it's still available.
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