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Posted: 1/19/2006 6:35:37 PM EDT
I know the caliber and stock is different, but I am under the impression that the there are a few other things different too. It's not just a long barrel, unique stocked AK in 7.62x54R, right?
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 6:40:45 PM EDT
I'm not 100% positive, but I believe the gas system is at least a little different on a Dragonov than on a standard AK pattern. That is one major difference.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 6:45:50 PM EDT
Well we are really talking about two different beasts when comparing the romanian drags to the russian or chinese drags....At least that's my impression.

I think the Romy Drags are just big AKs.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 6:57:29 PM EDT
A Drag has a gas system similar to an SKS as opposed to an AK system.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 6:57:47 PM EDT
the real russian Dragunov's and chinese versions are very diffrent from an AK,.....think a bigger fancier,.. better looking,..more complex SKS.

the romanian PSL's are basiclly super sized AK's,..built the exact same way as an AK except for the rear tang,..which sits further back and is attached to re-enforcing plates which are spot wielded onto the reciver,..the mags are only 10rds,...and the center support is diffrent as well......spring loaded metal recoil pad,....oh yeah no pistol grip nut hole either.

Link Posted: 1/19/2006 7:15:21 PM EDT
Accuracy
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 7:49:31 PM EDT
SVD: milled receiver, short-stroke adjustable gas system, different trigger pack w/lightweight hammer, barrel screws into the receiver. The PSL & SVD in 7.62x54 are equally accurate when using good ammunition according to a Finnish sniper who has used both extensively. HTH...
Tomac
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 1:26:02 PM EDT
Hmm, I love the look of them. Does anyone stateside like Arsenal make them? I can only find used ones occasionally and the prices are often astronomical.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 1:29:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/20/2006 1:31:57 PM EDT by MauserMark]

Originally Posted By motorcityman:
Accuracy



hmm....I've wondered about this also.

This guy says it's pretty close in accuracy.

www.headsbunker.com/html/2005/05/firearm-feature-romanian-psl.html
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 1:35:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Woody600:
Hmm, I love the look of them. Does anyone stateside like Arsenal make them? I can only find used ones occasionally and the prices are often astronomical.



Nope, expect the prices for true Drags to continue climbing until importation is allowed again (yeah, right) 'cause even a domestic version would be pricey if you want the milled receiver and same level of accuracy.
Tomac
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 1:38:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MauserMark:

Originally Posted By motorcityman:
Accuracy


hmm....I've wondered about this also.
This guy says it's pretty close in accuracy.
www.headsbunker.com/html/2005/05/firearm-feature-romanian-psl.html



Yep, until you consider the .308 NDM-86 as it's much more accurate than anything in 7.62x54 due to the absence of lightweight (appx 150gr) 7.62x54 match ammo. With 168gr match ammo you can count on sub-moa performance (sometimes sub-.5moa). My personal best 3-shot ctc group at 100yds is .24", my best 4-shot ctc group is .44" and my best 3-shot ctc group at 500m is 4.5".
Tomac
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 1:39:24 PM EDT
It's really a shame, I don't understand any ATF rules at all. My friend and I agree that since prohibition lifted they've been trying to manufacture a job for themselves.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 1:42:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Woody600:
It's really a shame, I don't understand any ATF rules at all. My friend and I agree that since prohibition lifted they've been trying to manufacture a job for themselves.



It's not ATF preventing importation (after all, the PSL/Romak-3 is imported and functionally it's identical to the Drag), it's the trade agreement w/Russia the bars Drag imports plus the US ban against Chinese Norinco imports (but that doesn't keep them from renaming guns like the Hawk 870 clone and selling them here, sigh...)
Tomac
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 1:47:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/20/2006 1:49:06 PM EDT by Woody600]
Hmm, where could one find a PSL then? Is that a "stocked" item in some gun stores?

I know this is kind of a bastard, but it sure looks fun:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=42655574

What do you all think of it? Might make a hell of a deer rifle. And cross compatible with the sizeable VEPR ammo stash.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 4:27:34 PM EDT
Woody,
Check with Southern Ohio Guns. They have a waiting list going for the rifle, but they had the "carbine/paratrooper" model in last week. I have not had time to fire it yet. It is an overgrown AK. I took a Red Star Arms adjustable trigger group out of an AK and exchanged the Romy out.
Drover
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 4:34:41 PM EDT
I might just owe you a beer, they have PSL's in stock. 595 sounds like a deal to me.

http://www.southernohiogun.com/newproducts.html

I know I shouldn't spend the money but I have poor impulse control. Anyone think this is a bad idea/deal?
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 5:12:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Woody600:
Hmm, where could one find a PSL then? Is that a "stocked" item in some gun stores?

I know this is kind of a bastard, but it sure looks fun:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=42655574

What do you all think of it? Might make a hell of a deer rifle. And cross compatible with the sizeable VEPR ammo stash.



Try SOG, AIM surplus, IO, etc. Be sure to get an actual Romanian rifle and not one of the US builds of questionable quality. IMHO that Gunbroker 7.62x39 "sniper" serves no useful purpose. It's doesn't have the range/power/accuracy of the PSL and is heavier/less handy than a VEPR/AK. But if you want it, go for it!
Tomac
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 5:50:56 PM EDT
Actually the SVD/Tigr/Drag is banned, something about the trigger group be too close to a full auto



Originally Posted By Tomac:

Originally Posted By Woody600:
It's really a shame, I don't understand any ATF rules at all. My friend and I agree that since prohibition lifted they've been trying to manufacture a job for themselves.



It's not ATF preventing importation (after all, the PSL/Romak-3 is imported and functionally it's identical to the Drag), it's the trade agreement w/Russia the bars Drag imports plus the US ban against Chinese Norinco imports (but that doesn't keep them from renaming guns like the Hawk 870 clone and selling them here, sigh...)
Tomac

Link Posted: 1/20/2006 6:05:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By firedog51d:
Actually the SVD/Tigr/Drag is banned, something about the trigger group be too close to a full auto



If that were true then wouldn't the Russian SVDs currently in the US be considered illegal non-registered NFA firearms? Check here about halfway down the page for info about the trigger group:
www.dragunov.net/internals.htm
Tomac
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 6:22:59 PM EDT
7.62 x 39 Vs 7.62 x 54 Big diff
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 6:34:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/20/2006 6:34:56 PM EDT by Beyond_Visual_Range]
Borrowed from the guy with that PSL review website.

Link Posted: 1/20/2006 6:42:38 PM EDT
Nice pic! Thanks!

I might just get that PSL from Southern Ohio Gun, as a Marine Corporal buying a 2000 dollar Dragunov when a 600 Romy Dragunov-ish is available seems like poor financial management. Anyone object to giving business to SOG?
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 7:00:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Woody600:
Nice pic! Thanks!

I might just get that PSL from Southern Ohio Gun, as a Marine Corporal buying a 2000 dollar Dragunov when a 600 Romy Dragunov-ish is available seems like poor financial management. Anyone object to giving business to SOG?



With my Romak-3, 4x scope & Russian '188' surplus I could consistenly hit the 18" gong at 500m. Find ammo that it likes and it might pleasantly surprise you. Range report!...
Tomac
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 7:08:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Tomac:

With my Romak-3, 4x scope & Russian '188' surplus I could consistenly hit the 18" gong at 500m. Find ammo that it likes and it might pleasantly surprise you. Range report!...
Tomac




So I take it you say "go for it". Now I have to find an FFL to buy it and transfer it to me. Anyone in KCMO?
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 7:17:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Woody600:

So I take it you say "go for it". Now I have to find an FFL to buy it and transfer it to me. Anyone in KCMO?



Hey, if it suits your needs/budget then by all means go for it! Here in Idaho I don't pay State Sales Tax if I pay for the firearm myself and have the FFL just handle the transfer (if they pay for it then I have to pay sales tax). Keep us posted!...
Tomac
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 7:44:32 PM EDT
I think it all depends on what you really want.

If you're looking for an interesting semi auto then there's nothing really wrong with the PSL. It's a big AK and I personally adore the AK family. Many people claim that the two are as accurate as each other in 54r and on the whole I think thats a reasonable comment. The PSL is certainly much cheaper and much easier to find which makes it more practical in many ways.

But if want you want is a real Dragunov, then nothing else can compare and you'll probably not be totally happy with the PSL. Imho not even a Tigr is in the same class. Whatever the SVD is, there is no question that a PSL isn't and thats about all there is to it.

For me hindsight is naturally 20/20, but I should have bought my NDM86 years and years ago. I gripped over the price and eventually bought a PSL first but wasn't particularly happy with the one I had. In the end I realized that I would probably regret not getting the Dragunov and now couldn't be more happy with my decision to buy it. The rifle has been an excellent performer, haven't had much trouble and I enjoy shooting it far more than anything else I own. To be honest, it was better than expected, I am simply one happy owner.

One thing, if you do get a PSL follow the advice above and get a Romanian one, not the parts kit. Mine was a parts kit and it was pretty frustrating so I ended up selling it due to accuracy and scope issues. Maybe I would have felt differently had I purchased a better PSL, but all things considered I'm glad it worked out the way it did...it frustrated me enough to say to hell with it and get what I'd always really wanted in the first place.

For me, its one of the best personal decisions I've ever made.


Z
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 7:55:09 PM EDT
I haven't built a gun before and I'm not really interested in doing so, yet. I will end up getting the SOG one I think. I love my VEPR and am interested in the Dragunov but I can't justify the price for what I want. The PSL is a platform that I'm already familiar with, it would be my first scoped rifle, it is unique from what most have, and it fits my budget. It will be put to shredding milk jugs and maybe some hunting.

What Western cartridge does the 54R compare too? I was under the impression that it was .30-06ish. I've only fired a .30-06 once and I disliked it but it was from a lightweight Remington 700 "mountain rifle" with the skinny stock and meant to be carried comfortably all day. I don't want that, I want a "shooter" and from what I've gathered by reading around the recoil on these is quite manageable.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 8:04:22 PM EDT
The recoil is high but not like a bolt action hunting rifle. It's not going to wear out your shoulder in 10 rounds...I often fire 50-100 when I take the NDM out and can't recall ever noticing side effects from the recoil.

In my subjective opinion, the felt recoil on the NDM is higher than the PSL, at least until you get a recoil pad for it. Big thing on the NDM is that until I got a better rubber eyepiece, that recoil would put the eyepiece right back into my face which was uncomfortable. Same thing with the PSL because the stocks on both are a tad short. After adding the recoil pad and changing the eyepiece all I do now is blink when I shoot, which is what I do with every rifle I fire anyway. I don't have the rubber compressing like it did before and its alot more fun to shoot, so I'd consider getting one if you can find it.

You make good sense with your reasoning and I respect that. I just wanted to mention the differences I've noticed and what the two have meant to me because I guess I have Dragunov fever and nothing else would do.

Good luck with the PSL though, as I said earlier I think they are fine rifles and I bet you will enjoy it based on what you've said. With a little luck you'll get good results like Tomac did.



Z

Link Posted: 1/20/2006 8:12:52 PM EDT
One more thing right quick too...be careful about what ammunition you buy. The Dragunov market is full of hype and people sell all kinds of crap. Don't believe the crap about a seller having true Soviet sniper ammo, its 99% likely that it's not. 7N1 and 7N14 were not exported so the best you'll do on a large scale is probably wolf 148gr FMJ. Wolf's not corrosive but most other combloc surplus is.

I would encourage you to try a variety of ammo though, it can take a while to find a good load for your particular rifle.

I've had pretty good results in my NDM with both wolf and Czech 148gr silvertip. The common concensus is to stick to 150gr and less in the PSL also because at one time they were supposedly falling apart with heavier rounds...I don't know if that was 100% then or if it's still true now, but I'll put it out there so at least you know.


Z
Link Posted: 1/21/2006 4:42:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/21/2006 5:26:32 AM EDT by Tomac]
Thanks to the semi-auto action and spring-loaded buttplate I found preceived recoil from my Romak-3 to be more a heavy push than sharp recoil. Recoil from my NDM-86's isn't bad/bothersome but is definitely sharper (probably due to the short-stroke action). Regarding scopes, check out the optics siderail on your PSL when you get it. If it has a cut out semi-circle partway back (and it should) then you can use the 3-9x 1P21 scope. It's big & heavy but it has a 7.62x54 bullet drop compensator tied directly to the magnification so once sighted in you simply adjust the magnifcation (x100) to the range you're shooting at (ie: 3x for 300m, 5x for 500m, 7.5x for 750m, 9x for 900m, etc). I use it on one of my .308 NDM-86's and even with the trajectory difference between 168gr .308 & 7.62x54 I can still consistently hit the 36" gong at 900m if I do my part. Here's a shot of the 1P21 and its reticle looking at the 750m gong.
Tomac
Edited to add: TX-Zen, I don't even use the rubber eyepieces any longer, I shoot better w/o 'em. Like you I kept putting off my first NDM-86 purchase for years because of the price and now I wish I had bought more of them sooner!


Link Posted: 1/21/2006 3:49:54 PM EDT
I called one of the shops I do business with around here and they said I can buy from SOG and they'll transfer it. It doesn't hurt that I've bought a few guns from said transferer (is that a word?) as well. I think I'll just break down and go for it on Monday. And I'll check the side mount as you recommended Tomac. Is it a random factory thing as to which mount they placed on the rifles?

Where in Idaho are you Tomac? I'm from Boise and will be moving back at the end of the year as my Marine Corps EAS is then.
Link Posted: 1/21/2006 6:37:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Woody600:
I called one of the shops I do business with around here and they said I can buy from SOG and they'll transfer it. It doesn't hurt that I've bought a few guns from said transferer (is that a word?) as well. I think I'll just break down and go for it on Monday. And I'll check the side mount as you recommended Tomac. Is it a random factory thing as to which mount they placed on the rifles?

Where in Idaho are you Tomac? I'm from Boise and will be moving back at the end of the year as my Marine Corps EAS is then.



I'm in Caldwell, drop me a line when you're back in the neighborhood and I'll run you out to the Parma range to stretch the legs of your PSL and let you try an NDM-86 if you wish (Parma has measured targets from 300-900m). Scope selection can be a personal preference but my choices would be the POSP 8x42D (Dragunov reticle, 1.1moa adjustments, adjustable diopter), 8x42D Pro (mildot reticle, .5moa adjustments, adjustable diopter) or the 1P21 I mentioned earlier. Romanian-built PSL's should have the 1P21-compatible optics siderail, it's the kit builds I've heard the most problems with. Keep us posted!...
Tomac
Link Posted: 1/21/2006 6:45:02 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/21/2006 6:46:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:

Recoil from my NDM-86's isn't bad/bothersome but is definitely sharper (probably due to the short-stroke action).


The PSL has a muzzle brake as opposed to the SVD's flash suppressor. Short stroke piston weapons have lower felt recoil impulses IMO. I have an SKS-D 16 inch Carbine that is noticably more controable to shoot than an AK shot side by side.



Good point.
Tomac
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