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Posted: 1/11/2006 9:40:56 AM EDT
http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/112205openletter.pdf

U.S. Department of Justice
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,
Firearms and Explosives
Assistant Director
Washington, DC
November 22, 2005

OPEN LETTER TO FEDERALLY LICENSED FIREARMS IMPORTERS
AND REGISTERED IMPORTERS OF U.S. MUNITIONS IMPORT LIST ARTICLES

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) strives to keep industry
members informed of relevant statutory and regulatory developments that may affect their dayto-
day business operations. The purpose of this open letter is to update licensed and registered
importers of firearms, ammunition and other regulated commodities on the lawful importation of
certain firearm barrels into the United States for commercial purposes.
In an open letter dated July 13, 2005, licensed and registered importers were advised that the
provisions of 18 U.S.C. § 925(d)(3) established the standards for the importation of firearms and
ammunition into the United States. In particular, section 925(d)(3) provides that the Attorney
General shall authorize a firearm to be imported if it meets several conditions: (1) it is not
defined as a firearm under the National Firearms Act (NFA); (2) it is generally recognized to be
particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes; and (3) it is not a surplus
military firearm. However, the subsection further provides that “in any case where the Attorney
General has not authorized the importation of the firearm pursuant to this paragraph, it shall be
unlawful to import any frame, receiver, or barrel of such firearm which would be prohibited if
assembled.”
Importers were further advised that ATF has determined that the language of section 925(d)(3)
permits no exceptions that would allow the frames, receivers, or barrels for otherwise
nonimportable firearms to be imported into the United States. As a result, ATF would no longer
approve ATF Form 6 import permit applications for importation of any frames, receivers, or
barrels for firearms that would be prohibited from importation if assembled. No exceptions to
the statutory language, for example for the repair or replacement of existing firearms, will be
allowed.
ATF recognizes that certain firearm barrels may be used to assemble either an importable or a
nonimportable firearm. With this fact in mind, ATF believes that such “dual use” barrels would
be eligible for importation into the United States under section 925(d)(3) for commercial
purposes, provided prospective importers of such barrels make representations indicating that
neither the importer nor subsequent purchasers of the barrels will use the barrels to assemble
nonimportable firearms. Importers of such barrels must provide sufficient information, e.g.,
specific model designation(s) of the firearm(s) that the barrels will be used to assemble, in the
“Specific Purpose of Importation” section of the ATF Form 6 that would enable ATF personnel
to establish that the barrels sought for importation are being imported for the assembly into
importable firearms. If the dual use barrels are being imported for resale to third parties, the
importer must state in the “Specific Purpose of Importation” section of the ATF Form 6 that
purchasers have been or will be advised that the barrels may only be used for assembly into
certain importable models and must list the specific models for which the barrels will be sold.
Inclusion of a model not known to be sporting may require the submission of a sample for
evaluation to determine if importation of the barrels will be approved.

The Firearms and Explosives Imports Branch staff is available to answer your questions about
the issues addressed in this letter. You may reach them by telephone at 202-927-8320 or by fax
at 202-927-2697.

Sincerely yours,
Audrey Stucko
Deputy Assistant Director
(Enforcement Programs and Services)
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 9:42:13 AM EDT
I await the cliff notes
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 9:44:13 AM EDT
New? It's dated November 22, 2005. That's not new.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 9:46:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gks452:
New? It's dated November 22, 2005. That's not new.



I have not seen it posted yet. Please excuse me if I am mistaken.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 10:29:05 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 11:10:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2006 11:13:22 AM EDT by JosephR]
How does this look Good to homebuilders?

What this statement appears to be stressing to me is that even though they've listed barrels as NOT importable, they will now be importable because they can be used to make BOTH importable AND NOT importable firearms. This looks like it will reverse the ban on barrels.

What it continues to state is that importers and dealers of these barrels will need to make sure that they do NOT use them to build a non-importable firearm and that if they sell the barrels as spares, they include paperwork stating they are NOT to be used to build NON-importable firearms and also include a list of NON-importable firearms.

You ain't any better off. I don't think you can even try and use an imported barrel as a replacement or spare because the rifle you are using it for is now NON-importable.

They are pretty much telling you that they will now be available but you better not try and use them in non-importable rifles and they are trying to nip that problem in the bud at the importer and dealer level, not just leaving it up to the home builder.

Link Posted: 1/11/2006 11:20:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JosephR:


You ain't any better off. I don't think you can even try and use an imported barrel as a replacement or spare because the rifle you are using it for is now NON-importable.

They are pretty much telling you that they will now be available but you better not try and use them in non-importable rifles and they are trying to nip that problem in the bud at the importer and dealer level, not just leaving it up to the home builder.




You are forgetting that once the US parts are installed the rifle is now a US Made gun and no longer a non-importable rifle. So the barrel you use is irrelevant.

Also you will NOT see any barrels imported with threaded muzzles or bayonet lugs. "Dual use" barrels will be nuetered.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 11:24:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By jaybob:

Originally Posted By JosephR:


You ain't any better off. I don't think you can even try and use an imported barrel as a replacement or spare because the rifle you are using it for is now NON-importable.

They are pretty much telling you that they will now be available but you better not try and use them in non-importable rifles and they are trying to nip that problem in the bud at the importer and dealer level, not just leaving it up to the home builder.




You are forgetting that once the US parts are installed the rifle is now a US Made gun and no longer a non-importable rifle. So the barrel you use is irrelevant.

Also you will NOT see any barrels imported with threaded muzzles or bayonet lugs. "Dual use" barrels will be nuetered.



Old news.

Remember, the wording prevents use in a weapon that is non importable. Any AW is non importable, regardless of origin, US parts, etc.. There is no exception for US made stuff...

At best, this will allow imports of AK sporter barrels, and will prevent these same importers from using them in AKs.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 11:26:17 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 11:29:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By thedukeryan:

Originally Posted By JosephR:
What it continues to state is that importers and dealers of these barrels will need to make sure that they do NOT use them to build a non-importable firearm


This is how I read it as well


if they sell the barrels as spares, they include paperwork stating they are NOT to be used to build NON-importable firearms and also include a list of NON-importable firearms.

I agree with this part as well however whats stoping a homebuilder from assembling a 922 compliant rifle. The above letter only applies to importers and not individuals. The way I read it is nothing will change. Kits will continue to come in and homebuilders will continue to legally build them. The only changes I see will only affect the importers. I admit that Im FAR from a expert but thats the way I read it.




But a kit, in of itself is for creating a non sporting firearm...


Link Posted: 1/11/2006 11:43:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2006 11:47:09 AM EDT by JosephR]
yeah, that's the reason we were all dreading a barrel ban- because the barrels are from non-importable weapons. Just because now there is an exception, the barrels are still from non-importable weapons and cannot be installed into or made into non-importable weapons.

You were afraid the barrel ban would kill parts kits. It still will. The parts kit is just as non-importable because the gun it is/was/could be intended for building was and still is non-importable.

AK47s and variants are non-importable. Their parts kits are now non-importable and the barrels were non-importable but this new letter states they are IF they are not assembled into a non-importable firearm or non-sporting firearm.

ETA: you can import a barrel that CAN be made into or used in a sporting weapon and will have to do so. I would try to skate around the law there.

They are saying that a non-sporting barrel could have two purposes, one being used in a sporting weapon. I would imagine you'd have to modify it by removing the lug and threads. But, that's only to make it compliant with a sporting use. You can't just do those modifications and then use it on a non-sporting rifle like you did during the AWB ban...
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 11:46:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Stottman:

Originally Posted By thedukeryan:

Originally Posted By JosephR:
What it continues to state is that importers and dealers of these barrels will need to make sure that they do NOT use them to build a non-importable firearm


This is how I read it as well


if they sell the barrels as spares, they include paperwork stating they are NOT to be used to build NON-importable firearms and also include a list of NON-importable firearms.

I agree with this part as well however whats stoping a homebuilder from assembling a 922 compliant rifle. The above letter only applies to importers and not individuals. The way I read it is nothing will change. Kits will continue to come in and homebuilders will continue to legally build them. The only changes I see will only affect the importers. I admit that Im FAR from a expert but thats the way I read it.




But a kit, in of itself is for creating a non sporting firearm...





Says who? I use mine as replacement parts!
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 11:48:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By jaybob:

You are forgetting that once the US parts are installed the rifle is now a US Made gun and no longer a non-importable rifle.




Folks, jaybob just may have found the NEW loophole!!!
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 11:51:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2006 11:52:57 AM EDT by JosephR]
You cannot use a barrel with a bayo lug and threaded barrel as a sporting barrel so those would have to be removed to make it for a sporting purpose. THAT would make it legal for sporting purpose but you still can't use them for non sporting rifle purposes. That is what the ATF is trying to make clear- that they understand the difference and won't let you just skirt the law by pretending that you are using it as a replacment part.

Your existing AK is a non-importable firearm and using any such barrel imported for the purpose of use in a sporting rifle and NOT in a non-importable firearm in your NON-importable firearm would be illegal.

They'd nail you twice- once for breaking the law and once more for being a smartass.

Besides, are you really going to try and buy a barrel and then pretend it's for replacement? You won't be able to build it into a kit and subsequent rifle. You won't be able to buy a whole kit just to have a replacement barrel. When or if you ever do buy this full kit for "just the barrel" so you can use it "as a replacmeent only" the importer would have done their job and told you the law. If you break it after that, it's your ass in a sling.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 11:54:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2006 11:59:00 AM EDT by JosephR]

Originally Posted By Headlice:

Originally Posted By jaybob:

You are forgetting that once the US parts are installed the rifle is now a US Made gun and no longer a non-importable rifle.




Folks, jaybob just may have found the NEW loophole!!!




yeah, but you are not legally able to buy the barrels with any intention other than USE IN A SPORTING FIREARM! what don't you get about that? The barrels are importable ONLY for use in a SPORTING RIFLE. NOT so you can buy one and then go "Oops. I don't want a sporting firearm. Maybe I'll use it as a replacement part." Where are you gonna get the rest of the parts? from a kit imported without the barrel? Then you've shown INTENT to break the law when you buy the kit.

ETA: you need to first own a sporting version of an AK to even think about needing a barrel as a replacement part for a sporting version.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 12:03:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2006 12:03:16 PM EDT by 1Gunner]
I expect this will mean business as usual for WASRs and Arsenals, as they are converted from sporting rifles

Who it really nails the balls to the ground is Vector and other kit building vendors relying on parts kits, and of course us, unless you can get the conversion parts
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 12:09:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1Gunner:
I expect this will mean business as usual for WASRs and Arsenals, as they are converted from sporting rifles

Who it really nails the balls to the ground is Vector and other kit building vendors relying on parts kits, and of course us, unless you can get the conversion parts



If your WASR and Arsenal Rifle was CONVERTED from a sporting rifle, then by definition of conversion, they are not sporting rifles anymore. I understand they were imported as one, but are no longer one.

The important point being is this barrel ban keeps kits out of the states. The KIT is what they have stopped. The KIT is what new rifles are built from. This does not allow KITS to be imported, it only lets barrels in for existing sporting weapons replacement parts.

What are we going to do with a million imported barrels, intended for sporting rifle replacment parts, without the rest of the kit, huh? I suppose some people might think they can get a brand new barrel for their used AK out of this, but we all know that's unreasonable- number one their AK is non sporting and do you really want to change the barrel?
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 12:14:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2006 12:16:19 PM EDT by 1Gunner]
The rest of the kit can be included....the ban only says NO foreign frames and receivers for AWs, and NO non-sporting barrels for AWs. We will see "sporting barrel kits" where you have to modify the barrel with a new FSB and thread the end for instance, just like Arsenal INC.

Joseph I still don't know what you point is for:
"If your WASR and Arsenal Rifle was CONVERTED from a sporting rifle, then by definition of conversion, they are not sporting rifles anymore. I understand they were imported as one, but are no longer one. " So what? you can convert a sporting rifle to non-sporting by compling with 922r
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 12:15:42 PM EDT
I wonder, if say I wanted to import an m-76 yugoslavian sniper rifle kit.


These essentially are the sniper rifles bought new, then cut up and sold as kits. Could the rest of the kit and barrel be imported separately from the same rifle? I.e. one container with barrels and another with kits. or one ship that has only the barrels on it and then the rest of the kit on another shipment?

sporting weapon using foreign parts. 7 American parts and it's considered american-made and sporting I believe.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 12:18:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JosephR:

Originally Posted By Headlice:

Originally Posted By jaybob:

You are forgetting that once the US parts are installed the rifle is now a US Made gun and no longer a non-importable rifle.




Folks, jaybob just may have found the NEW loophole!!!




yeah, but you are not legally able to buy the barrels with any intention other than USE IN A SPORTING FIREARM! what don't you get about that? The barrels are importable ONLY for use in a SPORTING RIFLE. NOT so you can buy one and then go "Oops. I don't want a sporting firearm. Maybe I'll use it as a replacement part." Where are you gonna get the rest of the parts? from a kit imported without the barrel? Then you've shown INTENT to break the law when you buy the kit.

ETA: you need to first own a sporting version of an AK to even think about needing a barrel as a replacement part for a sporting version.



My SLR-95 is sporting right?


No Threads

No Lug

No pistol grip

Link Posted: 1/11/2006 12:20:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1Gunner:
The rest of the kit can be included....the ban only says NO foreign frames and receivers for AWs, and NO non-sporting barrels for AWs. We will see "sporting barrel kits" where you have to modify the barrel with a new FSB and thread the end for instance, just like Arsenal INC.

Joseph I still don't know what you point is for:
"If your WASR and Arsenal Rifle was CONVERTED from a sporting rifle, then by definition of conversion, they are not sporting rifles anymore. I understand they were imported as one, but are no longer one. " So what? you can convert a sporting rifle to non-sporting by compling with 922r



Can we apply the once an MG always an MG ruling to "sporting guns"?
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 12:21:30 PM EDT
Regardless, it wont affect SBR's and pistols, as both are exempt from 922, so take the savings from getting the kit cheap, and make an SBR.

AND pay attention to who the Attorney General is, because HE's the one approving the importation.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 12:21:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2006 12:35:46 PM EDT by JosephR]

Originally Posted By 1Gunner:
The rest of the kit can be included....the ban only says NO foreign frames and receivers for AWs, and NO non-sporting barrels for AWs. We will see "sporting barrel kits" where you have to modify the barrel with a new FSB and thread the end for instance, just like Arsenal INC.

Joseph I still don't know what you point is for:
"If your WASR and Arsenal Rifle was CONVERTED from a sporting rifle, then by definition of conversion, they are not sporting rifles anymore. I understand they were imported as one, but are no longer one. " So, you can convert a sporting rifle to non-sporting by compling with 922r



I've made that point already. The ATF is not going to allow a replacement barrel for SPORTING RIFLE USE ONLY that comes with or includes EVERY other piece used to build an AK besides the receiver. How do you realistically expect a barrel to come with a KIT? Kits come with barrels, not the other way around... If you buy a barrel and it has all that other shit, it's a KIT.

How do you suppose this all works to your advantage? This is how it would have to work:

1. Kits are imported and built into sporting weapons
2. Sporting weapons are then converted to non-sporting weapons?

How does this help kit builders?

You can import ALL of the kits you want separately from barrels as long as the kits don't contain barrels.

You can import ALL of the barrels you want as long as they are for replacements.

Taking a barrel from one box and building it on a kit from another box is NOT A F*CKING REPLACEMENT, NOW IS IT?

JIMBEAM- yeah, go ahead and buy a new imported barrel as a replacement. But, the moment you try and use it to build a new rifle you get some free prison sex.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 12:58:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JosephR:

Originally Posted By 1Gunner:
The rest of the kit can be included....the ban only says NO foreign frames and receivers for AWs, and NO non-sporting barrels for AWs. We will see "sporting barrel kits" where you have to modify the barrel with a new FSB and thread the end for instance, just like Arsenal INC.

Joseph I still don't know what you point is for:
"If your WASR and Arsenal Rifle was CONVERTED from a sporting rifle, then by definition of conversion, they are not sporting rifles anymore. I understand they were imported as one, but are no longer one. " So, you can convert a sporting rifle to non-sporting by compling with 922r



I've made that point already. The ATF is not going to allow a replacement barrel for SPORTING RIFLE USE ONLY that comes with or includes EVERY other piece used to build an AK besides the receiver. How do you realistically expect a barrel to come with a KIT? Kits come with barrels, not the other way around... If you buy a barrel and it has all that other shit, it's a KIT.

How do you suppose this all works to your advantage? This is how it would have to work:

1. Kits are imported and built into sporting weapons
2. Sporting weapons are then converted to non-sporting weapons?

How does this help kit builders?

You can import ALL of the kits you want separately from barrels as long as the kits don't contain barrels.

You can import ALL of the barrels you want as long as they are for replacements.

Taking a barrel from one box and building it on a kit from another box is NOT A F*CKING REPLACEMENT, NOW IS IT?

JIMBEAM- yeah, go ahead and buy a new imported barrel as a replacement. But, the moment you try and use it to build a new rifle you get some free prison sex.



I think you are a little out of touch with reality man.......even the barrels we have used over the past year have been "for replacement only" and we make new guns everyday....the ATF just wants to BE ON THE FORM that it is for replacement and it could be used for a sporting rifle.......you are overly paranoid about prison sex
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 1:09:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2006 1:16:55 PM EDT by JosephR]
I would on the other hand say you are too eager to find some

The problem is they can import barrels for replacement on the Form 6. The barrels will more than likely not come with 32 other parts. When they do, they are a kit and not a replacement barrel.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 1:17:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1Gunner:

Originally Posted By JosephR:

Originally Posted By 1Gunner:
The rest of the kit can be included....the ban only says NO foreign frames and receivers for AWs, and NO non-sporting barrels for AWs. We will see "sporting barrel kits" where you have to modify the barrel with a new FSB and thread the end for instance, just like Arsenal INC.

Joseph I still don't know what you point is for:
"If your WASR and Arsenal Rifle was CONVERTED from a sporting rifle, then by definition of conversion, they are not sporting rifles anymore. I understand they were imported as one, but are no longer one. " So, you can convert a sporting rifle to non-sporting by compling with 922r



I've made that point already. The ATF is not going to allow a replacement barrel for SPORTING RIFLE USE ONLY that comes with or includes EVERY other piece used to build an AK besides the receiver. How do you realistically expect a barrel to come with a KIT? Kits come with barrels, not the other way around... If you buy a barrel and it has all that other shit, it's a KIT.

How do you suppose this all works to your advantage? This is how it would have to work:

1. Kits are imported and built into sporting weapons
2. Sporting weapons are then converted to non-sporting weapons?

How does this help kit builders?

You can import ALL of the kits you want separately from barrels as long as the kits don't contain barrels.

You can import ALL of the barrels you want as long as they are for replacements.

Taking a barrel from one box and building it on a kit from another box is NOT A F*CKING REPLACEMENT, NOW IS IT?

JIMBEAM- yeah, go ahead and buy a new imported barrel as a replacement. But, the moment you try and use it to build a new rifle you get some free prison sex.



I think you are a little out of touch with reality man.......even the barrels we have used over the past year have been "for replacement only" and we make new guns everyday....the ATF just wants to BE ON THE FORM that it is for replacement and it could be used for a sporting rifle.......you are overly paranoid about prison sex

yup. when we build up a 100 % reciever isn't it legal because we're technically replacing parts on a rifle that didn't/doesn't exist?
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 1:25:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2006 1:26:03 PM EDT by JosephR]
nope. When you are building on a US made 100% receiver you are building a new rifle on a new receiver. The receiver is also one of the foreign parts being replaced by a US part.

The receiver is also a firearm and cannot be imported.

Are parts kits imported solely as replacement parts only? I don't think so. I have NEVER seen it stated ANYWHERE that kits are sold as replacement parts only. My kit wasn't advertised as such.

Link Posted: 1/11/2006 1:29:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JosephR:
nope. When you are building on a US made 100% receiver you are building a new rifle on a new receiver. The receiver is also one of the foreign parts being replaced by a US part.

The receiver is also a firearm and cannot be imported.

Are parts kits imported solely as replacement parts only? I don't think so. I have NEVER seen it stated ANYWHERE that kits are sold as replacement parts only. My kit wasn't advertised as such.




The importer has this on the form 6s......whether that makes its way down through the distributor to the vendor to you is another story...you will see this on many ads....for replacement only....subject to 922r...you are really showing your AK noobness man, I have been following your conversion to the dark side, you still have much to learn, please stop spreading your opinions as actually informed and knowledgeable
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 1:30:36 PM EDT
Once you build it with the required US parts it becomes a US made rifle. Sporting purpose no longer applies.
The letter is addressed to importers, not joe builder, and it says "if the bbl is dual use, and you plainly state that is so, you are OK."
This means nothing to the casual builder except that he will have bbls in his kits. A bbl is not a firearm once its in the country. It's just a metal tube and totally unregulated. What you do with it is your business and if you choose to manufacture a 922 compliant rifle with your metal tube more power to you.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 1:32:01 PM EDT
Me after reading this--->
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 1:33:10 PM EDT
Wow, this is stupid, I still don't understand why can't we own firearms that are not for sporting purposes? I believe they want to change the second amendment of the constitution to:

"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 1:40:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2006 1:42:20 PM EDT by JosephR]

Originally Posted By 1Gunner:

Originally Posted By JosephR:
nope. When you are building on a US made 100% receiver you are building a new rifle on a new receiver. The receiver is also one of the foreign parts being replaced by a US part.

The receiver is also a firearm and cannot be imported.

Are parts kits imported solely as replacement parts only? I don't think so. I have NEVER seen it stated ANYWHERE that kits are sold as replacement parts only. My kit wasn't advertised as such.




The importer has this on the form 6s......whether that makes its way down through the distributor to the vendor to you is another story...you will see this on many ads....for replacement only....subject to 922r...you are really showing your AK noobness man, I have been following your conversion to the dark side, you still have much to learn, please stop spreading your opinions as actually informed and knowledgeable



So you are saying that in between replying, you've searched for my name in AK threads and think that because I've asked questions that I'm in no position to say that the ATF did this for a reason and that reason is NOT to repeal their earlier decision to BAN rifle barrels.

A barrel is not a firearm but if the ATF wants to rule on barrels and what can and cannot be done with regards to building firearms with them, then they sure as f*cking can.

For anyone to say a barrel is just a metal tube is as stupid as saying an auto sear is just a bent piece of metal. I understand an Autosear is regulated but it's regulated because of it's purpose in a rifle. The ATF has and will continue to dictate what parts can and cannot be imported until one of us gains total control of the government.

ETA:

What you are saying is that this is just another flexing of the ATF's muscles and it will matter little like their ban on importation of complete rifles?

And, if I'm a noob 1gunner, what are you exactly? How are you any better or smarter than me?
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 1:41:51 PM EDT
No I remember about a dozen noob questions in like a jnewt or kit vendor thread
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 1:43:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2006 1:47:12 PM EDT by JosephR]

Originally Posted By 1Gunner:
No I remember about a dozen noob questions in like a jnewt or kit vendor thread



so you started life here at AR15.com full of info and willing to spread it around liberally and never asked any "n00b" questions? Oh wait, you've asked questions, they just weren't "n00b" type in your mind...

ETA: I wasn't in the Jnewt thread. You are thinking of someone else.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 1:48:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2006 1:50:59 PM EDT by Mike_Mills]
To me, it reads almost like a "protectionist" policy/law.

There's nothing in it which says you cannot rebarrel your "non-importable" firearm. It just means you have to use a domestically manufactured barrel to do so.

For example, you cannot import Russian AK-47 barrels for resale. You can make, sell and install domestically manufactured AK-47 barrels.

What is bugging the heck out of me is the "sporting purpose" phrase. They are sticking to the dogma that tfirearms ownership is ALLOWED by the government for "sport purposes" and forgetting the Second Amendment which grants us the RIGHT to keep and bear arms.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 1:50:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By captainpooby:
Once you build it with the required US parts it becomes a US made rifle. Sporting purpose no longer applies.
The letter is addressed to importers, not joe builder, and it says "if the bbl is dual use, and you plainly state that is so, you are OK."
This means nothing to the casual builder except that he will have bbls in his kits. A bbl is not a firearm once its in the country. It's just a metal tube and totally unregulated. What you do with it is your business and if you choose to manufacture a 922 compliant rifle with your metal tube more power to you.




THANK YOU!! Finally someone gets it. Look at all of the AR15's with the same features as an AK. Sporting, or semi assault rifle means nothing as the gun is US MADE and does not have to be imported, and there is no longer any ban on "evil features".

You cannot IMPORT non sporting rifles, receivers, or barrels. You MAY ASSEMBLE US MADE semi automatic rifles from WHATEVER PARTS you want as long as they do not conflict with the NFA LAWS and they are indeed US MADE with the proper number of DOMESTIC PARTS.

You can take whatever barrel inported under whatever clause on a form 6 and assemble a US made firearm as long as you do not violate the NFA laws and they are indeed US MADE with the proper number of DOMESTIC PARTS.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 1:55:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2006 2:02:28 PM EDT by jaybob]

Originally Posted By Mike_Mills:
To me, it reads almost like a "protectionist" policy/law.

There's nothing in it which says you cannot rebarrel your "non-importable" firearm. It just means you have to use a domestically manufactured barrel to do so.





This is flat out wrong. You may re-barrel your rifle with whatever barrel you want as long as you do not vilate the NFA and maintain the proper number of US parts to keep the gun US made.

In the case of pre 922r guns you can use whatever you want without parts count regard as the gun was Legally here in it's original configuration before the import ban.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 1:56:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Mike_Mills:


What is bugging the heck out of me is the "sporting purpose" phrase. They are sticking to the dogma that tfirearms ownership is ALLOWED by the government for "sport purposes" and forgetting the Second Amendment which grants us the RIGHT to keep and bear arms.



Remember this sporting purpose clause only applies to Importation. Not domestic manufacture or ownership.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 2:00:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JosephR:
nope. When you are building on a US made 100% receiver you are building a new rifle on a new receiver. The receiver is also one of the foreign parts being replaced by a US part.

The receiver is also a firearm and cannot be imported.

Are parts kits imported solely as replacement parts only? I don't think so. I have NEVER seen it stated ANYWHERE that kits are sold as replacement parts only. My kit wasn't advertised as such.




This has been well documented in the past. Admittedly in small print.
In fact when DSA had kits they would not sell you a kit and a receiver together on the same order because of this.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 2:01:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1Gunner:


The importer has this on the form 6s......whether that makes its way down through the distributor to the vendor to you is another story...you will see this on many ads....for replacement only....subject to 922r...



Agree with this 100%
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 2:02:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2006 2:09:33 PM EDT by JosephR]
So the ATF is doing nothing more than just stating that these barrels are not to be used for anything other than replacement and you feel the kits will still pour in and be considered as replacement barrels?

Will sellers have to sell barrels and kits without barrels separately?

I would think "not to be used except as replacement in sporting rifles" has nothing to do with US made rifles of any sort.

I understand that a US made rifle is not an imported rifle, but don't people still have to make sure that what they are installing the barrel into is a sporting rifle? I understand my kit built PMKMS is not a non-importable assault weapon, but it's still NOT a sporting rifle by definition either.

I'm interested in this:

importer must state in the “Specific Purpose of Importation” section of the ATF Form 6 that purchasers have been or will be advised that the barrels may only be used for assembly into certain importable models and must list the specific models for which the barrels will be sold.


Doesn't the above make it clear that there will be rules for importers to abide by and that they shouldn't try to stray from following them to the letter?

The importer will now have to at least make a list to distribute with the product to be legal.

He'll also have to state what models he will advertise the barrels as replacements for, right? Consumers can just ignore this statement?
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 2:09:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JosephR:


a barrel is not a firearm but if the ATF wants to rule on barrels and what can and cannot be done with regards to building firearms with them, then they sure as f*cking can.

For anyone to say a barrel is just a metal tube is as stupid as saying an auto sear is just a bent piece of metal. I understand an Autosear is regulated but it's regulated because of it's purpose in a rifle. The ATF has and will continue to dictate what parts can and cannot be imported until one of us gains total control of the government.





An autosear is a completely different animal because of the NFA laws and is specifically controlled in that you need a tax stamp or a license to POSESS one. Certain barrels are only specifically denied importation.

Yes I agree with your statement "The ATF has and will continue to dictate what parts can and cannot be imported until one of us gains total control of the government."

As far as building with barrels you can do whatever you want as long as you do not violate the NFA laws and you maintain enough US parts to have the rifle be considered US made

Link Posted: 1/11/2006 2:11:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2006 2:12:27 PM EDT by JosephR]
So an importer will still continue to be able to import kits?

He will list on the import form that the parts are to sell retail and the barrels will be sold as replacement for models X, Y and Z?

He will then probably sell the kits sans barrels on one page of his website and the barrels on another and list them as replacement parts only?

We as end comsumers won't get into any trouble for buying one parts kits sans barrel and one barrel meant as replacement only?

Will someone take the time to press the barrels from the trunnions or will they be sold with trunnions? Most trunnions will have a number you'd like to see match the rest of your kit, right?
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 2:14:15 PM EDT
You could only not use the barrel if you were using to assemble a gun with evil features that didn't have any US-made parts and was therefore unimportable.

But since we're building rifles with a US parts count, they are US made, and therefore can be built with whatever barrels we want. They're not being assembled into non-importable guns because they're 992r compliant.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 2:18:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Chris_1522:
You could only not use the barrel if you were using to assemble a gun with evil features that didn't have any US-made parts and was therefore unimportable.

But since we're building rifles with a US parts count, they are US made, and therefore can be built with whatever barrels we want. They're not being assembled into non-importable guns because they're 922r compliant.



Yes!! You could put any evil barrel imported or not onto an AR15 (if you could make it fit). Thus you may do the same onto a US made AK because as far as the nationality of the manufacture of the gun they are exactly the same.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 2:34:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jaybob:

Originally Posted By Mike_Mills:
To me, it reads almost like a "protectionist" policy/law.

There's nothing in it which says you cannot rebarrel your "non-importable" firearm. It just means you have to use a domestically manufactured barrel to do so.





This is flat out wrong. You may re-barrel your rifle with whatever barrel you want as long as you do not vilate the NFA and maintain the proper number of US parts to keep the gun US made.

In the case of pre 922r guns you can use whatever you want without parts count regard as the gun was Legally here in it's original configuration before the import ban.



jaybob,

That's funny, you reacted so strongly to my post yet nothing you said contradicts what I posted. Neither does it point out where I went so terribly, "flat out wrong". Please explain, I'm always willing to learn something new.

My point was, this ruling appears to limit the availability of certain imported barrels on the American market and does nothing more. This only means you may have to use a domestiacally produced bareel. What is wrong with that reasoning?

Link Posted: 1/11/2006 2:37:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2006 2:38:38 PM EDT by Mike_Mills]

Originally Posted By jaybob:

Originally Posted By Mike_Mills:


What is bugging the heck out of me is the "sporting purpose" phrase. They are sticking to the dogma that tfirearms ownership is ALLOWED by the government for "sport purposes" and forgetting the Second Amendment which grants us the RIGHT to keep and bear arms.



Remember this sporting purpose clause only applies to Importation. Not domestic manufacture or ownership.



Well, it struck a nerve with me because I saw the phrase used in a letter from Senator Diane Feinstein stating that she believes there is no RKBA and the goivernment "allows" us to keep guns for "sporting purposes" only.

I believe this "sporting purposes only" phrase is part of the mantra of anti-gunners who would deny us our right to firearms.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 3:02:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Mike_Mills:

Originally Posted By jaybob:

Originally Posted By Mike_Mills:
To me, it reads almost like a "protectionist" policy/law.

There's nothing in it which says you cannot rebarrel your "non-importable" firearm. It just means you have to use a domestically manufactured barrel to do so.





This is flat out wrong. You may re-barrel your rifle with whatever barrel you want as long as you do not vilate the NFA and maintain the proper number of US parts to keep the gun US made.

In the case of pre 922r guns you can use whatever you want without parts count regard as the gun was Legally here in it's original configuration before the import ban.



jaybob,

That's funny, you reacted so strongly to my post yet nothing you said contradicts what I posted. Neither does it point out where I went so terribly, "flat out wrong". Please explain, I'm always willing to learn something new.

My point was, this ruling appears to limit the availability of certain imported barrels on the American market and does nothing more. This only means you may have to use a domestiacally produced bareel. What is wrong with that reasoning?




Mike,

Sorry for the strong wording. My point was that your first post said "have to use a domestically manufactured barrel"

Then you clarified and stated "may have to use a domestiacally produced bareel."

I have no problems with your clarification. I thank you for it. We agree.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 3:03:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2006 3:06:45 PM EDT by JosephR]

Originally Posted By Chris_1522:
You could only not use the barrel if you were using to assemble a gun with evil features that didn't have any US-made parts and was therefore unimportable.

But since we're building rifles with a US parts count, they are US made, and therefore can be built with whatever barrels we want. They're not being assembled into non-importable guns because they're 992r compliant.



I don't see what the problem is Chris- they state the barrel is only to be used as a replacement for a sporting rifle. Nothing you are thinking of building is considered a sporting rifle.

That's where I'm still stuck with this. I am reading that it can and should only be imported for use on a sporting rifle. They aren't saying it's NOT to be used on an illegal assault rifle with no US parts, they are saying that it IS to be used ONLY on a sporting rifle, which none of our AKs fit the definition of.

Just because we legally build assault type rifles on US made receivers with the legal minimum amount of US parts, doesn't mean we have built Sporting Rifles. We have NOT built sporting rifles which the barrels are intended for.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 3:07:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Mike_Mills:

Originally Posted By jaybob:

Originally Posted By Mike_Mills:


What is bugging the heck out of me is the "sporting purpose" phrase. They are sticking to the dogma that tfirearms ownership is ALLOWED by the government for "sport purposes" and forgetting the Second Amendment which grants us the RIGHT to keep and bear arms.



Remember this sporting purpose clause only applies to Importation. Not domestic manufacture or ownership.



Well, it struck a nerve with me because I saw the phrase used in a letter from Senator Diane Feinstein stating that she believes there is no RKBA and the goivernment "allows" us to keep guns for "sporting purposes" only.

I believe this "sporting purposes only" phrase is part of the mantra of anti-gunners who would deny us our right to firearms.



Again I agree with you, and I thank you for the clarification. Perhaps I was confusing the actual word of the current law with the fact that you were pointing out a disturbing trend and a Catch Phrase being used to undermine our rights. Again I apologize if I misunderstood the intent of your post.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 3:33:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JosephR:



I don't see what the problem is Chris- they state the barrel is only to be used as a replacement for a sporting rifle. Nothing you are thinking of building is considered a sporting rifle.

That's where I'm still stuck with this. I am reading that it can and should only be imported for use on a sporting rifle. They aren't saying it's NOT to be used on an illegal assault rifle with no US parts, they are saying that it IS to be used ONLY on a sporting rifle, which none of our AKs fit the definition of.



I agree with this last post also Josepf. The BATF letters are very unclear and muddled regarding this new definition of Dual Use. I think that the following quote from the letter can help clear this up:

ATF recognizes that certain firearm barrels may be used to assemble either an importable or a
nonimportable firearm. With this fact in mind, ATF believes that such “dual use” barrels would
be eligible for importation into the United States under section 925(d)(3) for commercial
purposes, provided prospective importers of such barrels make representations indicating that
neither the importer nor subsequent purchasers of the barrels will use the barrels to assemble
nonimportable firearms


“Specific Purpose of Importation” section of the ATF Form 6 that
purchasers have been or will be advised that the barrels may only be used for assembly into
certain importable models and must list the specific models for which the barrels will be sold.

So this means that the Dual Use barrels may be used to assemble an importable non Us made sporting purpose gun.

Where all of the confusion lies is that the letter does not address the US made rifle end of the whole deal.

The letter does not specifically prohibit nor endorse putting an imported dual use barrel onto a US made gun. So this is a grey area.

I bet some BATF flunky is laughing their ass off about the confusion that this is or can cause.


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