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Posted: 1/1/2006 7:06:56 PM EDT
Hi All,

I have decided on the AK design as my SHTF/TEOTWAWKI rifle. Now I need to decide on a caliber.

Terrain: Suburban/Semi-Urban environment with multiple small hills and trees, shots over 100-150 yards highly unlikely. No plains or significant flatlands.

Here are my needs:
1. Defense
2. Taking game the size of whitetails or smaller

Which caliber would you recommend? .223 Vs. 7.62x39 Vs. 5.45x39 Vs. .308? I am leaning towards 7.62 with .223 in a close second place...

thanks!
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 7:13:09 PM EDT
7.62 is my choice. Have taken several whitetails with SKS and AK in this caliber.
Ammo and mags are still readily available and inexpensive.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 7:13:41 PM EDT
Do you expect it will be Winter or Summer?
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 7:16:14 PM EDT
7.62x39 is a good all around caliber for what you have in mind.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 7:21:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By robpiat:
Do you expect it will be Winter or Summer?



I'm looking for an all season caliber...we have real winters here. :)
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 7:43:54 PM EDT
My ultimate choise would be a Galil with around 20 loaded mags in .223 caliber. .223 is the most readily available caliber in the USA in case of SHTF. I dont own a galil so my choice is an AK-47! Good enough for SHTF if you ask me...
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 7:57:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JOHNO:
7.62x39 is a good all around caliber for what you have in mind.



+1, 7.62x39 hits harder than .223 or 5.45 under 200yrds, cheap hi-cap mags unlike .308, and is cheaper to stockpile than all three.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 8:09:32 PM EDT
7.62x39mm!!!
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 8:28:16 PM EDT
7,62. Not even sure i would carry my ak.maybe just my Sks on stripper clips. *shrugs*
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 8:37:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2006 8:51:02 PM EDT by Robert2011]
I have all four of these

If you have lots of trees it would be nice to have a speedy optic to pick off hostiles using them for cover, and or a .308 to turn them in into concealment.

I think the most important thing when dealing with 100 yards and under is having the fastest shooting rifle for multiple targets. That usually means a red dot or low power adjustable scope. Mix in the trees and the fact that within 5 seconds of the first shot being fired most hostiles will take cover behind them, and you have a problem only a fast shooting rifle/optic combination can solve, hence the scope requirement.

I don’t have an answer for you as to what is best. Like I said, I have all four types but I can’t figure it out. It’s more a matter of money and what ammo you will store. If you plan on taking game then get a suppressor. If you plan on shooting in the shadows under trees or at night get a good flash suppressor. That should narrow down the AK choices a bit for you if you can get just one.

I guess if I was forced to make this choice right this minute I would choose either the .223 or the 5.45 because I have a PO 3.5 x 21P scope for each sighted in ready to go. The one on the 5.45 has a lit reticle so I’d pick that for night and low light. In many ways the optic is more important than the rifle or the caliber when it comes to getting fast hits in difficult circumstances. For you, drop the 5.45 because it's not a deer cartridge.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 9:36:25 PM EDT
308, ammo is even more common than 7.62X39.
It is good for all but the largest game and can be had with SABOT rounds for small critters.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 9:49:22 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 10:07:49 PM EDT
5.56 in an M-16 magazine compatable format.

In use by most Police, and most Nato militaries.

If it comes to the point that you need to find ammo, there will be plenty around.

Yes, you can always capture a rifle but its always better to be familiar and have it already dialed in.

Link Posted: 1/1/2006 11:41:44 PM EDT
.308

best all around for everything at most ranges
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 2:39:13 AM EDT
For the circumstances you listed I'd choose 7.62x39. Unfortunately there's no single ideal caliber that's perfect for every situation. Yes, .308 has more range/penetration at the cost of greater weight/recoil whereas the intermediate calibers have less weight/recoil at the cost of less range/penetration. The 5.45 is my first choice for *my* particular needs w/a scoped .308 NDM-86 for longer range work.
Tomac
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 3:09:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JOHNO:
7.62x39 is a good all around caliber for what you have in mind.





+1

­

IMO..................get both the .223 and the 7.62x39 they will be the most found rounds in your area also in the USA
for SHTF, LEO, MIL, GANGSTAS, and most important............us.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 3:44:42 AM EDT
.308 for general all around use. Stock up now so you woun't have to "forage" for ammo. Also, if you have a wife, get a .223 or 5.45 as it's highly unlikely she can shoot a .308 comfortabley or carry one for any amount of time.

As the guys say, cover will be utalized by any bad guys you encounter and whether it be cars or medium/small trees what you want is a round that can penetrate and that round is the .308. Or 7.62X54R, 8mm, or 30-06. :)
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 5:40:12 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 5:50:39 AM EDT
7.62x39 would be my choice. An AR for the wife, its lighter, less recoil and she is deadly accurate with it too.
For a fixed position, I'd go with a 1919 in .308 or 8mm and lots of belts.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 8:25:56 AM EDT
308 of course---why would you not want the most powerful out of the ones you mentioned. I bought a Century FAL for $500 that shoots like a charm---guess I got lucky---I have a couple DSA'a and a few Imbel STg builds but that cheap ass Century does the job too----mags are $5 a piece and ammo gives wide array of options as far as weight AP incend, Tracer---etc. As far as AK's go 7.62 is the only way to go in my humble opinion. I spent years in the Corps. with the 5.56 and i just don't like the lighter bullets. I have AK's in 7.62 and FAL's in 308---that's it!
Even better my sniper rifle and my battle rifle take the same ammo
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 11:21:38 AM EDT
7.62x39 AKM. Works great for deer, people, cars, puppies, and has pretty good penetration.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 3:42:22 PM EDT
Since you have decided on the AK, I feel the 7.62x39 is the way to go. with ballistics similar to the Winch 30-30 it is decent brush gun for deer, a great CQB carbine and has the reliability of a Rolex Submariner.

I love my AK's dearly, for urban combat I feel they are without equal.

But if I am going to have to fill multiple roles, CQB, accurate shot placement out to 200 yards, foraging for game, I would have to chose my AR.

My AR has a carrying handle scope,(zeroed for the Ceiner .22 conversion kit) the iron sights are zeroed for .223. It is ready to roll at all times for a potential extended SHTF scenario.

Here we go, flame on.

Link Posted: 1/2/2006 4:15:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HUNGARYAN:
Since you have decided on the AK, I feel the 7.62x39 is the way to go. with ballistics similar to the Winch 30-30 it is decent brush gun for deer, a great CQB carbine and has the reliability of a Rolex Submariner.

I love my AK's dearly, for urban combat I feel they are without equal.

But if I am going to have to fill multiple roles, CQB, accurate shot placement out to 200 yards, foraging for game, I would have to chose my AR.

My AR has a carrying handle scope,(zeroed for the Ceiner .22 conversion kit) the iron sights are zeroed for .223. It is ready to roll at all times for a potential extended SHTF scenario.

Here we go, flame on.



I think you should use whatever you are most comfortable with. If that's an AR, the use an AR. I think if I could choose any one rifle for all the above scenarios it would probably be an M1A Scout.

Link Posted: 1/2/2006 5:01:09 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 7:18:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Templar:

Originally Posted By BiggerStick47:

Originally Posted By HUNGARYAN:
Since you have decided on the AK, I feel the 7.62x39 is the way to go. with ballistics similar to the Winch 30-30 it is decent brush gun for deer, a great CQB carbine and has the reliability of a Rolex Submariner.

I love my AK's dearly, for urban combat I feel they are without equal.

But if I am going to have to fill multiple roles, CQB, accurate shot placement out to 200 yards, foraging for game, I would have to chose my AR.

My AR has a carrying handle scope,(zeroed for the Ceiner .22 conversion kit) the iron sights are zeroed for .223. It is ready to roll at all times for a potential extended SHTF scenario.

Here we go, flame on.



I think you should use whatever you are most comfortable with. If that's an AR, the use an AR. I think if I could choose any one rifle for all the above scenarios it would probably be an M1A Scout.





What he said.

It's much more the man, not the rifle. Get good with something and stay good with it.

Having said that the 7.62 NATO (.308) is going to be much more versatile as long as you have a stockpile of ammo and a way to carry ammo in the field. It'll handle everything you could happen to come across.



+100

7.62 x 51 all the way for me
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 7:22:18 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 7:34:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Templar:



img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/3084me.jpg



FN FAL goodness?
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 7:40:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2006 8:02:44 PM EDT by Templar]
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 7:52:13 PM EDT
i'd pick up a nicely tuned FAL or PTR-91 in a heartbeat if ammo were as common and cheap as 223 or 762x39. as things stand, i have veprs in each and can practice with them as much as i feel like. I think 762x39 would edge it out if i had to choose only one.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 3:53:33 PM EDT
Love ARs and AKs....but if the SHTF I'm taking my DSA 16" FAL. Will do anything I need it too.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 5:21:07 PM EDT
Im sure everyone already said 7.62x39, and if they didnt they should have.

If your SHTF situation is something along the lines of burglar breaks into your house, then any caliber that can kill a man in one shot to the chest is good. Well sort of, in an apartment you might want to have a better round so as to keep from shooting through walls.

However, in a WCS (Worst Case Scenario), WCS meaning an army invading, a large portion of the populace rioting or revolting (whether your the portion or not), almost absolute or absolute societal breakdown, etc etc. In a WCS, whatever army or protectorate your country has is unable for whatever reason, to help. That means no Police either. Typically a WCS is a somewhat surprise situation, or a long degradation situation.
Well in a WCS, the clear winner IMO is a AK-47 in 7.62x39, for mainly three reasons.

1. AMMO AMMO AMMO, let me say that again, AMMO AMMO AMMO.
-In a WCS, you dont get resupllied with anything, your fighting a One Man or Small Squad war, you and your fellow people (should you have any), must procure ammo and supplies through theft, killing, or scavenging. In America your going to find a little bit more 7.62x39 then .223, unless you come across US military places (depots/bases/etc.). So in America your choices are typically 7.62x39 or .223. However, most countries aggressive to the US use 7.62x39, not all use it as there primary, but many do and all of the Aggressors that have it will use it in some fashion.
So if China invaded (however implausible due to their craptastic Navy, and the US's superior military technology and training. Also, and above all else, Nuclear Weapons) they would have a large quantity of 7.62x39 and little to no .223.

In the world, there is more 7.62x39 then .223.

2. Durability and Reliability
- This is a given, in a WCS situation without any supplies (ie, no cleaning supplies), you just wouldnt want a M16 or other rifle that needs to be cleaned alot. Unless everyone is carrying around cleaning kits, you dont want a weapon that needs to be cleaned as much as an M16.
Go with the "Mud Crawling, Sand Blasted, Gunk Busting, Ass Kicker"

3. Availability
- Im done explaining things, this is a given as well.

AK in 7.62x39 = good for just about anything
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 6:36:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/3/2006 6:37:12 PM EDT by scromer]
Well I'm gonna bring my AK and my AR. No shit is going to hit the fan hard enough to make me leave one or the other behind. People ask me what weapon I would bring in an EOTWAWKI scenario and my answer is "All of them!" What I don't use for "social situations", I can use as trading material.

It's an ARFCOM rule - bring both !!!
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