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Posted: 12/27/2005 7:25:13 PM EDT
Someone who has done this kind of stuff before should test 5.45 rounds into gelatin and post photos of the tumbling effect.
Standard and Krinkov AK barrel lengths should also be tested to show penetration differences.
Wolf, barnaul, FMJ, HP, and SP rounds should also be tested.
lets all chip in and make this work... I'll donate rounds, someone donate gelatin, chrono, etc.
I know alot of us would love to see what the AR guys have had access to for a long time.... good quality gelatin pics
Anthony
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 7:55:15 PM EDT


Been done - not super impressive.

Check Fackler.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 8:16:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/27/2005 8:18:27 PM EDT by thedukeryan]
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 8:28:30 PM EDT
I think everyone is missing the point... you are looking at a drawing... I want to see the actual gelatin shot... everyone here does... so lets make it happen.
that is also 7N9 or what ever... I want to see what civilian HP, FMJ, and SP does... anyone else wanna see it?
Anthony
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 8:38:56 PM EDT
what country is DZA?
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 8:41:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By actionpur:
I think everyone is missing the point... you are looking at a drawing... I want to see the actual gelatin shot... everyone here does... so lets make it happen.
that is also 7N9 or what ever... I want to see what civilian HP, FMJ, and SP does... anyone else wanna see it?
Anthony



Where do you think the data came from to make those illustrations???

The 5.56 has it beat. But the 5.45 is still an impressive round none the less. BTW many of the member here have hunted with 5.45 specifically HPs and they noted not much if any difference between FMJs and HPs.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 9:03:05 PM EDT
Nobody on these boards is going to do any better research on the 5.45mm round than Fackler already has.

As much as you (and many others) may want to believe that the magic air pocket in the nose of the 5.45mm "poison bullet" will cause it to immediately "tumble" and cause devastating wounds...

...keep dreaming.

ALL rifle bullets will tumble upon penetrating their target. The nose of the 5.45mm does not deform - an abrupt shift in C.O.M. does occur which makes the 5.45mm begin its yaw cycle in a more reliably early timeframe/depth than some others but all that does is create temporary cavity stretch.

When the NATO 5.56mm round hits above a certain velocity it generally fragments once it turns 90 degrees through its yaw cycle causing massive damage.

The 5.45mm is a run-of-the-mill assault rifle round.


Really fun to shoot at the range, though!
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 9:25:58 PM EDT
So the consensus is that the 5.45 is less effective than the 5.56?? That's not cool.....I've been saving forever and am buying an M4gery and an SLR-105 A1 coming up here soon. The performance issues that the M4 seems to be having with standard 62grain ball ammo (i.e. only really fragmenting within 100 yards, if that) are somewhat serious....and if 5.45 is even less effective...Now I am a noob and may be missing something here, but I'd always heard the 5.45 was a much more effective killer than the NATO 5.56. I probably won't use either weapon outside of a range but still......
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 9:31:13 PM EDT


The key to effectiveness is shot placement. Effective shot placement comes through training and practice. The cartridge type is secondary to where the bullet goes.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 9:46:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Thekatar:


The key to effectiveness is shot placement. Effective shot placement comes through training and practice. The cartridge type is secondary to where the bullet goes.



I'm sure we are beating a dead horse here. Does anyone happen to have a link to a decent 5.45 vs. 5.56 thread? Maybe I can research this myself without boring everyone else to death...I did a search but didn't get any returns...
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 10:16:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By mco119:
Does anyone happen to have a link to a decent 5.45 vs. 5.56 thread? quote]
That will be hard to find. Everyone runs to the ammo-oracle to prove their 5.56mm points.

5.45mm owners will use the Afghan opinion on 5.45mm, from the Soviet - Afghan War.
When they nicknamed the 5.45mm "the poison bullet."

They both have their pluses and minuses. It will just end like any AK vs AR thread though.

Enjoy your SLR-105A1 though.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 10:20:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By No1Here:
Originally Posted By mco119:
Does anyone happen to have a link to a decent 5.45 vs. 5.56 thread? quote]
That will be hard to find. Everyone runs to the ammo-oracle to prove their 5.56mm points.

5.45mm owners will use the Afghan opinion on 5.45mm, from the Soviet - Afghan War.
When they nicknamed the 5.45mm "the poison bullet."

They both have their pluses and minuses. It will just end like any AK vs AR thread though.

Enjoy your SLR-105A1 though.



I could always post a new topic about it.......beat that horse a few more times. Don't know if I can bring myself to do it......
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 12:16:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mco119:
So the consensus is that the 5.45 is less effective than the 5.56??

One or two Peoples opinion hardly makes a concensus,personally,I don't put alot of merit in the comparision of actual wounds vs a block of gelatin.Both rounds,5.56 and 5.45 are highly effective for what they were designed to do,there are no organs in a block of gelatin to explode,no psychological effects like the realization that you've been hit ..........................................
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 2:18:55 AM EDT
I am a FNG to AKs so I have limited knowledge on this. However, a gent from Red Star Arms in Missouri put a lengthly and informative post on the ballistics of various 5.45 and 5.56 rounds on this forum in October. Due to my membership restrictions I can no longer bring this up. Perhaps a moderator can do this? Also, as I recall, a Tales of the Gun episode about the AK 47/74 showed US Army tests of the 5.45 round in ballistic gelatin which was done in the 1980s when the AK74 "poison round" caused such a stir during the Russian/Afgan war. The 5.45 round did yaw in the gelatin, most of the other rounds tested did not? Hope this helps.
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 2:47:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mco119:
So the consensus is that the 5.45 is less effective than the 5.56?? That's not cool.....I've been saving forever and am buying an M4gery and an SLR-105 A1 coming up here soon. The performance issues that the M4 seems to be having with standard 62grain ball ammo (i.e. only really fragmenting within 100 yards, if that) are somewhat serious....and if 5.45 is even less effective...Now I am a noob and may be missing something here, but I'd always heard the 5.45 was a much more effective killer than the NATO 5.56. I probably won't use either weapon outside of a range but still......



Don't let that stop you, get the SLR105, its simply a GREAT rifle to shoot. My initial zeroing and 100 yard shooting with 3.5 scope makes me feel it is as accurate as my M4, but I still need to get out to 300-400 yards with it.

I've always loved AK's but I couldn't believe how much better the SLR is than anything I've ever owned. (might be nothing more than 5.45 vs 7.62 culture shock, but I am impressed)

Link Posted: 12/28/2005 5:58:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Thekatar:
The key to effectiveness is shot placement. Effective shot placement comes through training and practice. The cartridge type is secondary to where the bullet goes.



+100000
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 6:07:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/28/2005 6:08:43 AM EDT by Stottman]


5.45mm owners will use the Afghan opinion on 5.45mm, from the Soviet - Afghan War.
When they nicknamed the 5.45mm "the poison bullet."



Actually, I have been told that thats actually a mistranslation or myth.. Someone that spent some time in Afghanistan working with AKs allot was telling me about that....

Said he could find very few 5.45 guns. The locals would actually convert them to 7.62x39....

"Poison bullet" is actually a misunderstanding/mis translation.. The Afghans did call it this, but the word they used actually means means stinging, like a bee sting.. In other words means it doesnt kill you... Can remember how he said it exactly; If it was a complete mistranslation, or just one of those things where a word can mean two things....


Originally Posted By JaketheSnake:

Originally Posted By Thekatar:
The key to effectiveness is shot placement. Effective shot placement comes through training and practice. The cartridge type is secondary to where the bullet goes.



+100000



+1.... I dont know what people think..... That with some magical load, if they hit a guy in the toe, he will die in 1 second....

Link Posted: 12/28/2005 10:11:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By actionpur:
Someone who has done this kind of stuff before should test 5.45 rounds into gelatin and post photos of the tumbling effect.


Photos have a hard time showing some thing in Gel, hence Dr Fackler also made drawing to make it easier to see what was going on.

Several studies of the 5.45 have been done and you can find them posted in the Ammo Forum on the AR Side

In particular :
"Wounding patterns of military rifle bullets"
"Wounding Potential of the Russian AK-74 Assault Rifle"
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 10:57:36 AM EDT
www.snipersparadise.com/articles/chinacomplex.htm


This was verified in the livestock testing performed by the Chinese. Here the 5.45 7N6 load showed what it was designed to do and produced significantly larger wounds than either the 5.56 SS109 or the 5.8x42. However the range here was short, only 90m. While the Chinese were impressed by, and commented on the tremendous close range wound capacity of the 5.45 7N6 loading they also stated that by 600m its accuracy, penetration, and wound capability had dropped off significantly due to its lightweight 52 grain projectile. However they also felt the 5.45x39 to be a very economical cartridge to manufacture. The Chinese were impressed by the 5.56x45 SS109 and felt that it was effective up to 600m. However they felt that it had the disadvantages of high chamber pressures and because it utilized brass cartridge cases was not economical to produce.
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 11:05:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/28/2005 12:31:21 PM EDT by MauserMark]
www.snipersparadise.com/articles/soviet.htm

SP: Did you think that there was any difference in effectiveness between the 7.62x39 AKM's and the 5.45x39 AK-74's?
Andrei: As a matter of fact the AK-74's was something new that they had just started to issue only a few years before. Everybody was under the impression that this things got a special bullet with a offset center of gravity that would leave a devastating blow and we were under the impression that this was a superior weapon because of the special bullet.


SP: So when you underwent training they made a point to indicate that the 5.45x39 ammunition had special characteristics.
Andrei: That's right, they indicated that it was an offset center of gravity round.


SP: Did its effect in combat bear that out? Did you feel it was more effective than the 7.62x39?
Andrei: That's hard to determine, you've got stuff from all over coming. You don't go over there and look at this hole and say, "look what this did and look what that did," I think that both of the guns did their job and did their job quite well. But the guy who carried the AKM was a special guy cause he had the PBS. But then again when you're talking about the load he still had to carry 600 rounds and that's 30% heavier than 5.45. The 5.45x39 did its job perfectly though, it shot in the direction it was pointing in, it hit what you needed to hit, and killed what you wanted to kill, and that was it.

Link Posted: 12/28/2005 11:20:02 AM EDT
I saw on another board that the 5.45 round couldn't make it all the way through a TV. Oh and it was in an apartment, range of about 2 or 3 meters if i remember correctly.
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 11:25:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AKaTom:
I saw on another board that the 5.45 round couldn't make it all the way through a TV. Oh and it was in an apartment, range of about 2 or 3 meters if i remember correctly.



if it couldn't than neither could a 5.56x45 bullet either. Both have killed plenty of people in the world. How about this, for all the know-it-all 5.45 bashers, you can shoot yourself with one and have the person who witnesses the incident give us a detailed description of the wound pattern(s).
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 11:34:12 AM EDT
A drawing done years ago with ammo we cannot buy does not equal a current photo of rounds we can buy. the same drawing are out for the 5.56 but there are no drawings of the 77 grain match kings exploding in gelatin if you get what I am getting at... current info and photos are what I am lookin at.
i am not trying to prove if it tumbles or that it is a magic bullet... I do want to see what these rounds actually do and photos help.
Anthony
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 11:44:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/28/2005 11:54:26 AM EDT by Thekatar]

Originally Posted By MauserMark:
How about this, for all the know-it-all 5.45 bashers, you can shoot yourself with one and have the person who witnesses the incident give us a detailed description of the wound pattern(s).



I assume that you are referring to me, since I pointed out that scientific testing on the 5.45mm round had been done already by one of the world's foremost experts on wound ballistics.

Your statement is simply stupid.


Now, as far as current testing of the Wolf round (I assume that is what is being referenced) it might be a good project for the Box-o-Truth...

In fact here's a thread called The Box O' Truth - In Russian...

Edited to add it looks like the BOT website is down. There are some extensive threads here on it, though. Can't find any explicit testing of 5.45mm.
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 11:53:56 AM EDT
I'm certainly not bashing the round...didn't mean to give that impression. I love shooting my Tantal annd will soon have my Bulgy built



Originally Posted By MauserMark:

Originally Posted By AKaTom:
I saw on another board that the 5.45 round couldn't make it all the way through a TV. Oh and it was in an apartment, range of about 2 or 3 meters if i remember correctly.



if it couldn't than neither could a 5.56x45 bullet either. Both have killed plenty of people in the world. How about this, for all the know-it-all 5.45 bashers, you can shoot yourself with one and have the person who witnesses the incident give us a detailed description of the wound pattern(s).

Link Posted: 12/28/2005 12:25:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Thekatar:

Originally Posted By MauserMark:
How about this, for all the know-it-all 5.45 bashers, you can shoot yourself with one and have the person who witnesses the incident give us a detailed description of the wound pattern(s).



I assume that you are referring to me, since I pointed out that scientific testing on the 5.45mm round had been done already by one of the world's foremost experts on wound ballistics.

Your statement is simply stupid.


Now, as far as current testing of the Wolf round (I assume that is what is being referenced) it might be a good project for the Box-o-Truth...

In fact here's a thread called The Box O' Truth - In Russian...

Edited to add it looks like the BOT website is down. There are some extensive threads here on it, though. Can't find any explicit testing of 5.45mm.



Well gelatin tests, as someone mentioned can only go so far. As I posted above, which I guess you read, the only example we've yet had in this thread of someone who actually shot other human beings with the round said it worked just fine. I'll take his example anyday over some lab rat's analysis.
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 2:09:17 PM EDT
If you really want to test the two go find some pigs and shoot them, then cut them in half and see. Anyway you look at it I do not want to be a gunnie pig in real life.
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