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Posted: 12/26/2005 10:57:32 AM EDT
Who still uses either? I know Russia still has LOTS of BOth, and that the Iraqis use the 7.62.


Link Posted: 12/26/2005 11:08:46 AM EDT
I am pretty sure China, Korea, most of Africa, SE Asia, etc. use 7.62 or 5.45.

So a better question is 223 dead?
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 11:09:29 AM EDT
I would say that the shear number of 7.62x39 guns out there will allow that round to live on for a long, long time. Heck, you can still find surplus .30-06 ammo and there were never the number of rifles in .30-06 that there are in 7.62x39.

I'm not so sure the same will hold true for the 5.45 just because it was not distributed as widely as the 7.62x39. Also remember that any country that wants to be part of NATO - even those former Warsaw Pact countries - will be change over to 5.56, i.e. Poland and Bulgaria.

Spooky
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 11:23:13 AM EDT
Except for Russia, 5.45 is dead.. Everyone else has phased it out as standard #1..

Link Posted: 12/26/2005 11:30:23 AM EDT
The question is will Russia keep 5.45?
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 11:31:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By huey_crew_chief:
The question is will Russia keep 5.45?



Yes.. The new AN94 is in 5.45....

They have switched to 9mm NATO as the new standard pistol round, but it will be years (if ever) before 9mm Makarov is replaced...
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 11:44:44 AM EDT
Even if 5.45 is phased out completely there's a sizeable civilian market for it here. No way they're going to ignore that cash cow, especially now that they've got production solely for the civilian market.
Tomac
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 11:51:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Tomac:
Even if 5.45 is phased out completely there's a sizeable civilian market for it here. No way they're going to ignore that cash cow, especially now that they've got production solely for the civilian market.
Tomac



Thats always possible, but remember thats because they have spare production capicity..A change of calibers could/probably would change that.. The factories would all be busy making new ammo for the Military..

Of course, WOLF doesnt make for the Military anyways, so they would still be good..

Link Posted: 12/26/2005 11:59:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/26/2005 12:01:31 PM EDT by Dave_A]
I'd hardly say 5.45 is dead...

Just that there's 'Russia' and 'Everybody Else'

The Russians never widely exported their 'top end' equipment...

7.62x39 is so widely used in the left-over world simply because once Russia switched, what better to do with the old stuff than sell it?

China is abandoning 7.62x39 for their own home-brew 6mm cartridge, and the statement will continue that the only countries who use 7.62mm for a standard issue cartridge either do so because there's nothing else they can afford, becasue it was given to them back in the Cold War for free/cheap, or are in the process of switching to something else...

Note that the Iraqis (government type, not terrorist type) want to 86 7.62x39 for 5.45 or 5.56...

It's a small-caliber world out there - at least when it comes to major powers...
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 2:01:27 PM EDT
I wonder how much of a market there is for 5.45 here in the U.S.

I think it's still very much an exotic round for American shooters. We AK enthusiasts must be just a drop in the bucket.

Are there even 5000 5.45mm shooters? 10000? How many do you think there are?
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 2:12:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Richard-ar15:
I wonder how much of a market there is for 5.45 here in the U.S.

I think it's still very much an exotic round for American shooters. We AK enthusiasts must be just a drop in the bucket.

Are there even 5000 5.45mm shooters? 10000? How many do you think there are?



Good questions. Even within the US AK enthusiast world, 5.45 is the minority. Everything 5.45 comes as a premium.
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 3:05:30 PM EDT
You Guys are forgetting about North Korea,I believe they made the change from 7.62 to 5.45 a few years ago.
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 3:14:47 PM EDT
I wish starline or some other brass company would start making 5.45x39 brass then we could load our own, ever since i quit shooting CAS i havent used my dillon much, if someone made brass for the ak74 round i could see me loading up a few thousand rounds of this stuff. These ammo suppliers have to get off their ass and start cranking this shit out for us! McM
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 3:29:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Stottman:

Originally Posted By huey_crew_chief:
The question is will Russia keep 5.45?



Yes.. The new AN94 is in 5.45....

They have switched to 9mm NATO as the new standard pistol round, but it will be years (if ever) before 9mm Makarov is replaced...

i thought they decided to give up on the AN-94 for standard issue because it was to complicated for easy cleaning and field repair?
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 4:07:56 PM EDT
I believe RWS produces 5.45 ammo. If I remember correctly, about 10 years ago when Century had the East German military bolt action "sniper rifles" in 5.45 available, they sold RWS ammo for it.
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 4:16:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AKLover_91:

Originally Posted By Stottman:

Originally Posted By huey_crew_chief:
The question is will Russia keep 5.45?



Yes.. The new AN94 is in 5.45....

They have switched to 9mm NATO as the new standard pistol round, but it will be years (if ever) before 9mm Makarov is replaced...

i thought they decided to give up on the AN-94 for standard issue because it was to complicated for easy cleaning and field repair?



limited issue to certain units i think...yeah
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 5:23:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dieter122:

Originally Posted By AKLover_91:

Originally Posted By Stottman:

Originally Posted By huey_crew_chief:
The question is will Russia keep 5.45?



Yes.. The new AN94 is in 5.45....

They have switched to 9mm NATO as the new standard pistol round, but it will be years (if ever) before 9mm Makarov is replaced...

i thought they decided to give up on the AN-94 for standard issue because it was to complicated for easy cleaning and field repair?



limited issue to certain units i think...yeah


The AN-94 cost money to produce, money which Russia does not have at the moment. So they will stick to thier 74s for the time being, but special forces given location of combat do carry the AN-94. But like I said that's due to thier deployment area, many Russia Special Forces in checynya carry the AK-47.
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 5:32:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Doug_H:
I believe RWS produces 5.45 ammo. If I remember correctly, about 10 years ago when Century had the East German military bolt action "sniper rifles" in 5.45 available, they sold RWS ammo for it.



They do but it is abouty $25-$30 a box when you can find it. The large Hp is not AK friendly.
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 6:47:28 PM EDT
One thing to note is that China cretaed their own intermediate round that is 5.8mm and 42?mm long. This is used in their new homebrew bullpup assault rifle.

I think there is plenty of 5.45 around. It has been in service since about 1977 and is still used in the new AN-94 and the issue AK-74M and Century series AKs. The 7.62 is only coming back in small quantities in Russian squads just like we are un-mothballing our M14s for squad marksmen....

-Cabby
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 7:36:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JaketheSnake:

Originally Posted By Dieter122:

Originally Posted By AKLover_91:

Originally Posted By Stottman:

Originally Posted By huey_crew_chief:
The question is will Russia keep 5.45?



Yes.. The new AN94 is in 5.45....

They have switched to 9mm NATO as the new standard pistol round, but it will be years (if ever) before 9mm Makarov is replaced...

i thought they decided to give up on the AN-94 for standard issue because it was to complicated for easy cleaning and field repair?



limited issue to certain units i think...yeah


The AN-94 cost money to produce, money which Russia does not have at the moment. So they will stick to thier 74s for the time being, but special forces given location of combat do carry the AN-94. But like I said that's due to thier deployment area, many Russia Special Forces in checynya carry the AK-47.



Yes, just not enough cash to replace it..

Same thing with the Makarov pistol.. Its been "replaced" with a new 9mm, but of course they dont have the money to buy the millions needed.
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 7:45:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/26/2005 7:46:19 PM EDT by JaketheSnake]

Originally Posted By Stottman:

Originally Posted By JaketheSnake:

Originally Posted By Dieter122:

Originally Posted By AKLover_91:

Originally Posted By Stottman:

Originally Posted By huey_crew_chief:
The question is will Russia keep 5.45?



Yes.. The new AN94 is in 5.45....

They have switched to 9mm NATO as the new standard pistol round, but it will be years (if ever) before 9mm Makarov is replaced...

i thought they decided to give up on the AN-94 for standard issue because it was to complicated for easy cleaning and field repair?



limited issue to certain units i think...yeah


The AN-94 cost money to produce, money which Russia does not have at the moment. So they will stick to thier 74s for the time being, but special forces given location of combat do carry the AN-94. But like I said that's due to thier deployment area, many Russia Special Forces in checynya carry the AK-47.



Yes, just not enough cash to replace it..

Same thing with the Makarov pistol.. Its been "replaced" with a new 9mm, but of course they dont have the money to buy the millions needed.


Not having money for fun toys


SUCKS!!!!
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 8:05:27 PM EDT
Yugoslavia, Hungary and Finland never made the switch to 5.45mm. All 3 are currently using 7.62x39.

Russia is always gonna have 5.45mm and 7.62x39mm to use. They never fully put away the AKM.
They're just limited use among their Special Forces. Since Chechnya, the AKM and 7.62mm has become more popular. Because of its penetration ability compared to 5.45mm in urban fighting.
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 8:37:21 PM EDT
There might not be that many 5.45 ak shooters in the US, but most of them buy ammo by the case.

I know deer hunters that haven't shot 50 rounds in ten years...
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 5:31:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JOHNO:
You Guys are forgetting about North Korea,I believe they made the change from 7.62 to 5.45 a few years ago.



I can't wait till the N.Korean ammo boat gets here!!!!
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 6:08:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Doug_H:
I believe RWS produces 5.45 ammo. If I remember correctly, about 10 years ago when Century had the East German military bolt action "sniper rifles" in 5.45 available, they sold RWS ammo for it.



what type of rifle was this?

just curios.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 6:46:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MauserMark:

Originally Posted By Doug_H:
I believe RWS produces 5.45 ammo. If I remember correctly, about 10 years ago when Century had the East German military bolt action "sniper rifles" in 5.45 available, they sold RWS ammo for it.



what type of rifle was this?

just curios.




world.guns.ru/sniper/sn40-e.htm
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 8:13:14 AM EDT
Hmmmm, so if Russia is our main supplier of 5.45 what would happen if our govt. pulled a "china import" type ban like they did with the steel core? Understanding this isnt a steel core issue rather a banning a country from importing to the US certain products.

I don't like all the eggs in one basket situation, are there any other sources of "Russian priced" ammo out there?

Ok sorry for the black helicopters paranoia question, just was being hypothetical.

Link Posted: 12/27/2005 8:54:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By HUNGARYAN:
Hmmmm, so if Russia is our main supplier of 5.45 what would happen if our govt. pulled a "china import" type ban like they did with the steel core? Understanding this isnt a steel core issue rather a banning a country from importing to the US certain products.

I don't like all the eggs in one basket situation, are there any other sources of "Russian priced" ammo out there?

Ok sorry for the black helicopters paranoia question, just was being hypothetical.




Nope..

Only other source is expensive RWS ammo..
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 10:27:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By motorcityman:
I wish starline or some other brass company would start making 5.45x39 brass then we could load our own, ever since i quit shooting CAS i havent used my dillon much, if someone made brass for the ak74 round i could see me loading up a few thousand rounds of this stuff. These ammo suppliers have to get off their ass and start cranking this shit out for us! McM



I agree, I'm waiting patiently.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 11:24:25 AM EDT
5.45 is dead. The only folks still using it are the Russians (and there is a strong movement to return to the 7.62) and Osama bin Laden in his Krink.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 12:51:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pieceofstink:
5.45 is dead. The only folks still using it are the Russians (and there is a strong movement to return to the 7.62) and Osama bin Laden in his Krink.




Whazzat?



Link Posted: 12/27/2005 1:59:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pieceofstink:
5.45 is dead. The only folks still using it are the Russians (and there is a strong movement to return to the 7.62) and Osama bin Laden in his Krink.



not completely. There was the same thing here for a while (recently) to go to the 6.8 or 6.5, doesn't seem like it will happen. Better technology is making smaller and smaller bullets more lethal, look at the P90. Small caliber rifles are definately here to stay. 5.45 is a successful and battle proven cartridge. There was a great interview by sniper's paradise recently of Spetz veteran of Afghanistan that said the 5.45 did everything it needed to do, and killed when it needed to kill. The 7.62 is here to stay, simply because of the huge number of rifles in the world and now growing in america that use the caliber.

Link Posted: 1/3/2006 12:33:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JOHNO:
You Guys are forgetting about North Korea,I believe they made the change from 7.62 to 5.45 a few years ago.



Do you have any sources on this? I've only seen the NK's with AKMs.

Link Posted: 1/3/2006 1:13:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fadedsun:

Originally Posted By JOHNO:
You Guys are forgetting about North Korea,I believe they made the change from 7.62 to 5.45 a few years ago.



Do you have any sources on this? I've only seen the NK's with AKMs.


About three years ago there was some discussion on another site,there was a pic in either Newsweek or Time magazine showing NK Forces on Parade with new 74s,the general concensus at the time was they were probably purchased from Bulgaria.I'll look around some more.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 1:18:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JOHNO:

Originally Posted By fadedsun:

Originally Posted By JOHNO:
You Guys are forgetting about North Korea,I believe they made the change from 7.62 to 5.45 a few years ago.



Do you have any sources on this? I've only seen the NK's with AKMs.


About three years ago there was some discussion on another site,there was a pic in either Newsweek or Time magazine showing NK Forces on Parade with new 74s,the general concensus at the time was they were probably purchased from Bulgaria.I'll look around some more.



Stamped right? Those darned bulgarians...

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