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Posted: 11/28/2005 3:58:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/29/2005 5:04:03 PM EDT by ark-and-spark]
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 4:02:19 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 4:12:31 PM EDT
Velly velly eentellesting...
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 4:17:07 PM EDT
maybe common sense has finally prevailed at BATFE. Hell what am I thinking, Common sense is an uncommon virtue there. It would be nice if they let the importers like CFS and such still import kits "for Repair Purposes".
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 4:18:44 PM EDT
Good news indeed! I guess I will eat a couple of Romanian kits, no big deal though. I would have bought them anyways.
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 4:36:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/29/2005 2:15:38 AM EDT by krinkfreak]
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 4:51:33 PM EDT
Very good I like to hear that i want more kits!
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 4:53:33 PM EDT
What impact would this have for us? Is there an importable version of a krink or another AK? Seems this still screws me on anything I would want anyway... am I off here?
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 4:54:23 PM EDT
"ATF recognizes that certain firearm barrels may be used to assemble either an importable or a
nonimportable firearm. With this fact in mind, ATF believes that such ?dual use? barrels would
be eligible for importation into the United States under section 925(d)(3) for commercial
purposes, provided prospective importers of such barrels make representations indicating that
neither the importer nor subsequent purchasers of the barrels will use the barrels to assemble
nonimportable firearms."
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 4:59:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By APBullet:
"ATF recognizes that certain firearm barrels may be used to assemble either an importable or a
nonimportable firearm. With this fact in mind, ATF believes that such ?dual use? barrels would
be eligible for importation into the United States under section 925(d)(3) for commercial
purposes, provided prospective importers of such barrels make representations indicating that
neither the importer nor subsequent purchasers of the barrels will use the barrels to assemble
nonimportable firearms."



Exactly the part that got my attention. I don't think this letter represents a change in the status of future importation of AK receivers and barrels so companies like Century can continue to make WASR's. It is just a clarification that it will not impact sporting use rifles.

I could be wrong. Hell I hope I am wrong.
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 5:01:01 PM EDT
Let me tell you I cant wait to build my very own aks-74u with a thumbhole stock. Maybe well luck out and still get the krinks or worst case will still get them but with a 16 in barrel and have to cut it down.
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 5:11:13 PM EDT
So they are saying that we can still import kits, Just cant built rifles out of them, Only SBRs and pistols. And if we do build a rifle out of it that has a muzzle break and all the good stuff we will be in violation of some sort of law. This sound slike a loophole. Due to the fact that Once the importer sells the kit, It is no longer thier barrel and they have no say or responsibility in what is built out of it. That would kinda fall under the legislation of not being able to sue gun manufacturers for people getting shot with thier gun. The buyers (that would be us) never said they would not build an "Evil" rifle out of it and the importers cant be held responsible for what the buyers do after it leaves their possesion. Thats like a beer store saying "we cant sellyou this beer due to the fact that I think you are going to drink it and drive later this week" Or am I way off here?
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 5:15:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/28/2005 5:16:36 PM EDT by Sigurd]
I hope this means that kits/barrels will be able to be imported with a restriction "for use in 922(r) compliant firearms".

A 922(r) firearm is not "non-importable" because it is not considered to be imported. Domestically manufactured firearms are not subject to the "sporting purpose" clause.

I hope I'm not reading too much into the letter.
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 5:20:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Sigurd:
I hope this means that kits/barrels will be able to be imported with a restriction "for use in 922(r) compliant firearms".

A 922(r) firearm is not "non-importable" because it is not considered to be imported. Domestically manufactured firearms are not subject to the "sporting purpose" clause.

I hope I'm not reading too much into the letter.



Thats exactly how it sounds to me.
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 5:21:13 PM EDT
Tag. Interesting development.
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 5:21:25 PM EDT

Domestically manufactured firearms are not subject to the "sporting purpose" clause.



Exactly!

Link Posted: 11/28/2005 5:23:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By krinkfreak:
"ATF recognizes that certain firearm barrels may be used to assemble either an importable or a
nonimportable firearm. With this fact in mind, ATF believes that such “dual use” barrels would
be eligible for importation into the United States under section 925(d)(3) for commercial
purposes, provided prospective importers of such barrels make representations indicating that
neither the importer nor subsequent purchasers of the barrels will use the barrels to assemble
nonimportable firearms
."



Doesn't matter. They can't legally regulate what the end user does with their kit, provided that the end user compies with all existing laws, unless someone gets a law on the books stating that we can't.

If I'm reading this right, it looks like anything that is normally importable (low-cap Kalashnikovs of the normal barrel length, for instance) is still going to be importable as a kit. I guess the M92 Krink or AMD-65 kits wouldn't be importable unless they had a barrel extension added before being imported.

So maybe 80% of AK kits that were coming in will still be importable next year. Yay!

I hope you spend to much on your AK74 and RPK kits! I'm glad I waited this long.

Link Posted: 11/28/2005 5:26:32 PM EDT
I think you are being too wishful, I hope that it is the case but I bet 922 compliant will not be exempt...
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 5:33:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By m03:
I guess the M92 Krink or AMD-65 kits wouldn't be importable unless they had a barrel extension added before being imported.



Importers of such barrels must provide sufficient information, e.g.,
specific model designation(s) of the firearm(s) that the barrels will be used to assemble, in the
“Specific Purpose of Importation” section of the ATF Form 6 that would enable ATF personnel
to establish that the barrels sought for importation are being imported for the assembly into
importable firearms
.


Perhaps all they will have to do is establish with the ATF that the barrel extension will be sold with the kit OR the manufacturer will sell the completed firearm in "sporting" configuration. Either way, this sounds good. It's not everyday the ATF tells the gun industry what TO do instead of what NOT TO do.
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 5:37:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By prophet455:
I bet 922 compliant will not be exempt...



"922 compliant" = "sporting"

This is the law and it is already long established policy. "No-ban" WASR's are an example of this.
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 5:40:56 PM EDT
I will be buying many barrels to weld together and make Christmas yard ornimates...would that be illegal or is there a limit..???
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 5:46:07 PM EDT
Let me buy plenty of good cheap kits - I "promise" I won't build evil rifles with them

Link Posted: 11/28/2005 5:51:51 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 6:00:03 PM EDT
I hope this is good news but I am still going to hold my breath, our luck doesnt run that way. Only time will tell. Do you think this will means some kits will be back in and some wont? For example: Romanian will be good to go but Bulgarian wont...
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 6:14:35 PM EDT
It sounds to me like (that's SOUNDS like) that nothing is going to change!! The current way of doing things will remain in effect and we just have to not have too many evil foreign made parts. Business "as usual" is what it SOUNDS like to me. Just have to be 922 compliant.

That would be cool, unlesss you just bought a $1600 RPK kit that is....................
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 6:35:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By metoo:
I will be buying many barrels to weld together and make Christmas yard ornimates...would that be illegal or is there a limit..???



This could become the new biggest lie told surpassing the current champion of all lies "No I won't c#% in your mouth"
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 7:33:27 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 8:48:59 PM EDT
I think there is only one way to solve this:
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 8:50:50 PM EDT
Wow, dude went biblical with the smudge tool.
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 9:43:16 PM EDT
So does this mean $1500 RPK-74 kits will come down in price?
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 10:39:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Sigurd:
I hope this means that kits/barrels will be able to be imported with a restriction "for use in 922(r) compliant firearms".

A 922(r) firearm is not "non-importable" because it is not considered to be imported. Domestically manufactured firearms are not subject to the "sporting purpose" clause.

I hope I'm not reading too much into the letter.



I'm reading it the same way you are...

It's pretty clear.

Importers have to say that neither they nor purchasers of the barrels will use the barrels to assemble nonimportable firearms.

OK.

"You are not allowed to assemble a non-importable firearm with this barrel/kit pursuant to 18 USC 922(r) and 18 USC 925(d)"

Done!
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 10:51:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By kythri:

Originally Posted By Sigurd:
I hope this means that kits/barrels will be able to be imported with a restriction "for use in 922(r) compliant firearms".

A 922(r) firearm is not "non-importable" because it is not considered to be imported. Domestically manufactured firearms are not subject to the "sporting purpose" clause.

I hope I'm not reading too much into the letter.



I'm reading it the same way you are...

It's pretty clear.

Importers have to say that neither they nor purchasers of the barrels will use the barrels to assemble nonimportable firearms.

OK.

"You are not allowed to assemble a non-importable firearm with this barrel/kit pursuant to 18 USC 922(r) and 18 USC 925(d)"

Done!




So Arsenal and Century can make guns but we can't???
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 11:14:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Mattl:

So Arsenal and Century can make guns but we can't???



Uh, no - we can.

You just can't assemble a firearm that is nonimportable.

Well, we're already obeying that directive, and not assembling nonimportable firearms.

My AK-74's have 6 US parts in them, in compliance with 922(r). As such, they're domestic firearms, and are not considered nonimportable.
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 11:33:17 PM EDT
Actually, the ATF considers even US made non-sporting firearms to be non importable.
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 11:41:15 PM EDT
Hrmm...

Well, I'll still say "oh well".

They can make the importer tell the purchaser whatever they want - "you can't use these to build nonimportable firearms".

I'll tell the seller that I'm not going to build a nonimportable firearm.

If I do build a nonimportable firearm, tough shit. I've broken no law.
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 11:56:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Stottman:
Actually, the ATF considers even US made non-sporting firearms to be non importable.




Actually, the "sporting purpose" clause of the GCA does not apply to domestically made firearms AT ALL.
Link Posted: 11/29/2005 1:07:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Sigurd:

Originally Posted By Stottman:
Actually, the ATF considers even US made non-sporting firearms to be non importable.




Actually, the "sporting purpose" clause of the GCA does not apply to domestically made firearms AT ALL.



Yes, but there is a difference between one made here, and one that is imported. What way the ATF decides to go with this, I dont know.

Dont believe me? Try putting in an import permit for a US made AR-15 (importing from a 3rd country)... See what happens..
Link Posted: 11/29/2005 2:15:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/29/2005 2:54:14 AM EDT by krinkfreak]
Link Posted: 11/29/2005 2:22:34 AM EDT
I think a clarification is in order.

What makes a firearm "nonimportable?" It's design (as in double stack SARs banned but single stack WASRs allowed)? Or is it the fact that the firearm does not have the required US parts (922r)?
Link Posted: 11/29/2005 2:29:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/29/2005 2:31:41 AM EDT by Stottman]

Originally Posted By glklvr:
I think a clarification is in order.

What makes a firearm "nonimportable?" It's design (as in double stack SARs banned but single stack WASRs allowed)? Or is it the fact that the firearm does not have the required US parts (922r)?



design.. US made or not, has no difference.

Again, the ATF could interpret the barrel use either way....

Now, as I would interpret it, I would understand the law to mean that barrels cannot be used to make a firearm that is prevented from being imported. Well, a military configuration AK (regardless of country of origin) is not importable. They dont mention any exceptions for US made weapons.

Link Posted: 11/29/2005 2:57:31 AM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 11/29/2005 3:10:59 AM EDT
tag for end result of legal analysis
Link Posted: 11/29/2005 4:01:23 AM EDT
building untraceable homemade ak's (that is, untraceable if you're buliding one from a receiver flat) is what the atf wants stopped but while not infringing on companies like Century to do so "legally" (that is on registered and traceable receivers already attached to a finished product) . this letter is a ridiculous way to go about that imo. the way its written, there no way it can be truly enforced, yet at the same time its slick enough wording where these new stipulations are going to scare off most importers - importers are not going to be bringing in anywhere near the numbers they used to now imo. i dont think this letter will affect current kit values either way. but once the democrats get a president elected i predict there will be legislation passed to eliminate imports all together. that's probably when you'll see kit value rise - when a democrat gets in office.
Link Posted: 11/29/2005 4:08:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By krinkfreak:
This means that neither the importer or the subsequent purchaser can manufacture the weapon. You can also bet that no gunsmith will touch your kit either, or they could lose their manufacturing license and face criminal prosecution.



Dude, nothing has changed. They just restated the same thing that they have always said. BATFE "opinion".

Link Posted: 11/29/2005 4:33:21 AM EDT
A way the importer could assure the BATFE that the imported kits would comply with 922r would be to keep to the 10 parts rule. Such as not selling the kit with the pistol grip, muzzle attachment etc...... The only problem with that is deciding which parts not to include with the kit.

After that, if the purchaser installs foreign made parts, it's their problem, not the importer. That way it's out of their hands.

Krink Freak is "in the know" with importers. Maybe he should suggest they approach the BATFE with this.
Link Posted: 11/29/2005 4:49:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/29/2005 4:49:51 AM EDT by jimtash9]

Originally Posted By krinkfreak:
This means that neither the importer or the subsequent purchaser can manufacture the weapon. You can also bet that no gunsmith will touch your kit either, or they could lose their manufacturing license and face criminal prosecution.

So....better call Harbor Freight and purchase that hydraulic press you've been putting off and your rivit tool of choice, because you're going to have to build your stuff at home.



I see the future and it includes a lot of "partying".
Link Posted: 11/29/2005 6:49:14 AM EDT
ok I have a ? now
say you have enough of kits to hold you off
how will the ATF know what kits i had before the ban started?
say you have 10 kits all are legal to make givin the correct number of US parts are put in
then the ban starts how will they know that i had these kits ahead of time?
Link Posted: 11/29/2005 6:51:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sacmaster:
A way the importer could assure the BATFE that the imported kits would comply with 922r would be to keep to the 10 parts rule. Such as not selling the kit with the pistol grip, muzzle attachment etc...... The only problem with that is deciding which parts not to include with the kit.

After that, if the purchaser installs foreign made parts, it's their problem, not the importer. That way it's out of their hands.

Krink Freak is "in the know" with importers. Maybe he should suggest they approach the BATFE with this.



I have never built a kit, But dont most people put a new trigger group, and furniture on them anyways? thats 6 parts right?
Link Posted: 11/29/2005 7:12:32 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/29/2005 7:31:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By krinkfreak:
I see this as requiring importers to date stamp/mark/engrave the barrels as they come into, or before they come into the country. It's the only way to enforce the policy in the ATF open letter and regulate the barrels.....

If you have a "regulated" barrel, then it better be pressed into a receiver that existed prior to the new deadline....then it would be a true "repair or replacement" barrel.

Let's just say if the ATF researches your "assembled" weapon and finds that you purchased the receiver via Form 4473 in February 2006, and it has a regulated barrel which began 1 January 2006. I would say you were in violation of the policy letter regardless of 922r.....

Thoughts?



Violation of the policy letter? Huh?

Krinkfreak, I admit I can be a little slow in the mornings but I am having a hard time understanding your post. Your reasoning is interesting but I see nothing that even hints at the restrictions you refer to. Please cite the specific verbage in the ATF letter you are referring to in coming to your take on it.
Link Posted: 11/29/2005 8:34:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rickinvegas:

Originally Posted By krinkfreak:
I see this as requiring importers to date stamp/mark/engrave the barrels as they come into, or before they come into the country. It's the only way to enforce the policy in the ATF open letter and regulate the barrels.....

If you have a "regulated" barrel, then it better be pressed into a receiver that existed prior to the new deadline....then it would be a true "repair or replacement" barrel.

Let's just say if the ATF researches your "assembled" weapon and finds that you purchased the receiver via Form 4473 in February 2006, and it has a regulated barrel which began 1 January 2006. I would say you were in violation of the policy letter regardless of 922r.....

Thoughts?



Violation of the policy letter? Huh?

Krinkfreak, I admit I can be a little slow in the mornings but I am having a hard time understanding your post. Your reasoning is interesting but I see nothing that even hints at the restrictions you refer to. Please cite the specific verbage in the ATF letter you are referring to in coming to your take on it.



That's exactly the problem. The ATF can change their verbage to fit their desires on a whim. Or worse, they keep the same verbage but change their interpretation on a whim.
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