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Posted: 9/25/2003 5:56:19 AM EDT
All my posts critical of Joeken have been deleted on that other forum. I was being critical of the fact that my waffle mag order with them is a month overdue. I wonder how long it will be before I'm banned.

www.gunsnet.net/forums/showthread.php?threadid=136856&goto=newpost
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 6:04:29 AM EDT
That's one of my favorite forums. I check there often just to read all the posts of pissed off customers before they get deleted. Have you got an e-mail yet?
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 6:33:26 AM EDT
Yeah, deletion of those posts is nothing new.

Question for you, though - have they actually charged your credit card yet?

When I spoke with them, they weren't going to be receiving or shipping the mags for about two more weeks or so (this was about a week ago).

They promised that they'd not charge cards until they receive the mags, and they're boxed up to ship.

They haven't charged my card yet, so I'm not too worried about it - yet.
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 6:48:15 AM EDT
Did you expect anything differently???

That's the standard operating procedure.....Vendors can peddle their crap to you, but you cannot say anything about them....

KF
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 7:06:57 AM EDT
Letting a vendor mod their own forum is normal, when they go from weeding trolls to an alternative reality is another matter.
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 7:09:30 AM EDT
..and that's the reason some vendors run to .net. (T#P#O, are you listening?)

take care,
Tec
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 7:55:14 AM EDT
When I placed the order I asked Joe if he was going to charge my card early. He said it might get charged a few days before they were shipped but that they would be shipping next week. I had never been charged by the time I cancelled my order with them yesterday.

On a funny side note I did get a bunch of emails from other guys who had seen my posts and were offering to sell me mags. I ended up ordering some at $16 each.

Link Posted: 9/25/2003 8:03:49 AM EDT
what a joke, joeken is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
tapco will soon join his ranks.
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 8:37:17 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 8:44:09 AM EDT
I left Joeken negative feedback on his trader rating. We'll see how long it takes them to alter it.
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 1:20:57 PM EDT
you think a month is bad a buddy of nibe ordered a 9mm AR upper form him in MAY, hasnt got it yet...He is hoping Joken is at the Creek but I doubt he has the balls to show his face.....
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 2:49:34 PM EDT
Hey, at least it's something that they haven't charged your card.

That's definately something. The waffle mags from JoeKen have been taking a while to arrive, but at least they're not telling people that they'll be shipped any day now, or charging people in advance.
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 2:57:49 PM EDT
I need to get out more (meaning out of this board) and see the other forums.

I thought that Joeken was a good place to get mags and they had CS.

I was about to make a large order this weekend, but thanks for the heads up.
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 3:17:12 PM EDT
Honor is in short supply on that board.

Regards,
Gary
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 3:17:40 PM EDT
I give that tread 3 1/2 stars. Joeken, the Super moderator, and the Uber moderator are worth the comedy alone.

I want to be an Uber moderator, how do I get a job like that so I can tell people that I can make their lives miserable?

Gawd, what a bunch of idiots.
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 4:19:18 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 5:15:46 PM EDT
Campy your just jealous of DTHOR being a SEAL at Seaworld, and HDR being a MACV-SOG vet, on the Net at leasts.
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 8:04:04 PM EDT
I've been trying to get a refund for two weeks now.

I placed an order online but it didn't go through cause of a glitch so they email me, iron out glitch and charged the card instantly. Didn't bother to metion that they were out of stock on the receiver flats. I've called twice to cancel the order. The second time it was as if it was the first time I'd asked. Talked to Jamie first, then James.

Guess I call Visa tomorrow. With all the negative posts I've seen it looks like fraud on their part.
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 9:23:35 PM EDT
Wow. I hate to be coming off as a JoeKen defender here - that's not my intention.

However, while my experiences with them have been less than perfect, I can honestly say that they aren't engaging in fraudulent behavior.

People get mad at them due to long shipping times and, most importantly, a severe lack of communication. If your credit card was charged before they had product to ship, I think that someone there made a mistake - I've spoken with Joe in the past, and their policy now is not to charge credit cards until they are ready to ship the product. Commonly, you'll find a charge about 2-3 days before product is shipped, but that happens lots of places.

Give them a call, ask for Joe personally. If he's not there, ask him to call you back. Explain your situation, and that you're considering calling your credit card company because they're less than communicative.

And, once again, I'll agree - you shouldn't have to do this. Their CS and business practices shouldn't be so sloppy. At this moment in time, that's a JoeKen fact of life, and that needs to be taken into consideration before you order.

I've made a total of 3 purchases with them, and twice, I've needed to call them and iron out details and get specifics from Joe on what's happening. Purchase number three is for some of those waffle mags.

For what it's worth, he's attempted (and succeeded) in making things right so far.

The first order, he sent me some magazine pouches for free. The second order, he sent me some of their gas pistons.

Would I rather have less hassle than freebies? Sure enough. I'm just trying to illustrate that he appears to be trying to do the right thing.

I've done business with some other vendors out there, and been incredibly happy with them. If they could match JoeKen in prices on things, I'd probably go with them due to the hassle, but I ain't made of money. When I ordered my Bulgarian parts kits, JoeKen was a good $40-$50 cheaper than the other resellers.

As far as the waffles, JoeKen is selling them for $8.99/each, and the only other place I've seen them is KVAR for $17.99/each. Do the math. I'll gladly put up with some hassle and a delayed shipping to save 47%. I'm pretty confident that the product will arrive.
Link Posted: 9/26/2003 12:20:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By innocent_bystander:
I left Joeken negative feedback on his trader rating. We'll see how long it takes them to alter it.



It's already been deleted just like the negative feedback I left them a couple of months ago. What's the use of feedback if they can change it while committing a fraud. I live in Arizona and I have never seen them at any gun shows and they don't have a store front, just a post office box. I expect some people to get ripped off just like they did by GG.
Link Posted: 9/26/2003 12:39:28 AM EDT
I just think its bad buisness to take money for stuff that's not even in country. Its one thing to tell people what you have coming, another to take money.
Link Posted: 9/26/2003 3:26:46 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/26/2003 7:21:35 AM EDT
Little help here guys. See how long this lasts.

www.gunsnet.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=138814
Link Posted: 9/26/2003 8:25:44 AM EDT
....and this one. Bastards! All of them!

www.gunsnet.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=138827
Link Posted: 9/26/2003 8:31:56 AM EDT
Bastards indeed. They're just digging themselves a hole, because the more people that find out about this shit, the less that do business with any of the vendors since no one can trust the feedback ratings.
Link Posted: 9/26/2003 8:31:58 AM EDT
Good on ya, Bystander. I'll guess you'll last another hour on there before they sniff you out. What a bunch of disreputable pukes.
Link Posted: 9/26/2003 8:38:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/26/2003 8:53:20 AM EDT by az-ar]
www.gunsnet.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=136985

Bowkunt strikes back!

edited to add: so does az-ar! I'm with you Bystander!
Link Posted: 9/26/2003 10:19:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By krinkfreak:
Did you expect anything differently???

That's the standard operating procedure.....Vendors can peddle their crap to you, but you cannot say anything about them....



I cant remember the exact threads. But I have seen the same shit go down on this board
Link Posted: 9/26/2003 1:03:26 PM EDT
Wow! What a funny thread! And i_b got the coveted "This member banned by administrators".

My account must be backlogged for the Circular Piece of Furniture to review...
Link Posted: 9/26/2003 1:20:30 PM EDT
It was fun while it lasted. I really didn't intend for it to turn out that way but I was attacked. So, what the hell.

That's two, Joeken and American Spirit Arms that I am banned from doing business with.
Link Posted: 9/26/2003 2:30:02 PM EDT
So, out of curiosity, did JoeKen actually charge your credit card, or as he claims, was it not charged?
Link Posted: 9/26/2003 2:47:24 PM EDT
No my card wasn't charged. It really was petty and was blown way out of proportion. He kept promising to deliver something that he does not have in stock nor does he have any idea of when he is going to get it in stock. When you look at the add on his website it says nothing about the item not being in stock.
Link Posted: 9/26/2003 8:47:14 PM EDT
interesting... innocent_bystander's posts are deleted, yet they are still referred to...


http://www.gunsnet.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=136985




You both are immature and have no sense of what is really going on. It is not a bad experience when there was never one in the first place. They have not exchanged goods for money or even charged a credit card as this is a Pre-Order good grief.

Sometimes I think you guys are so full of s***, in thinking JoeKen is some WALMART or SEARS. They are a young company who is wanting to bring members of Guns Network good deals and all you all do to critize a company ....cause you feel company's like JoeKen are trying to f*** with you. You all are part of the problem here try being part of the solution. By taking your head out of the sand and realize you all are on the same team. As AKE has posted above will give you all some idea of what company's like JoeKen is going thru. Most of this is not there fault but if they are guilty of anything, it is of letting you all know what they have coming in and instead of waiting until in is in stock ready for delivery they are taking Pre-Orders.

Can't please everyone but concerning the crap az-ar just posted. If you don't like the way we run our websites then get off and go start your own and when you have been around as long as we have then I will listen to you.... Capesh..................

Ban you... you say.. oh hell no way I want members to see what you two ignoranus's are all about. Again I got better things to do with our servers but when two people want to take pot shots at this website and our sponsors I will be the first to put it in your face as in in your face.




just a neutral observation... if you "want members to see what you two ignoranus's (sic - how clever) are all about..." then why delete their posts?

Capisce?


Link Posted: 9/26/2003 8:55:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/26/2003 8:56:22 PM EDT by az-ar]
I like how ignoranus is spelled wrong.

I do admit to getting carried away a little though. Ah well, heat of the moment.
Link Posted: 9/26/2003 9:46:54 PM EDT
When I read something Bowhunt has written I almost feel a nosebleed coming on.

It gives me this strange feeling in my head, like the opposite of a headrush.

I'm not even kidding.
Link Posted: 9/26/2003 10:10:10 PM EDT
i had my charge card bill one month ago, and still have not gotten my ammo!!!!!!!!!
texasak47
Link Posted: 9/27/2003 3:24:04 AM EDT
Joeken charged me 2 months in advance for two Hesse AK receivers that never shipped. Over the period of a month, I called 5 times and tried to get my money back (1 time talked to Joe, last time I left a messag for him). Eventually I just went to my credit card and disputed the charge..problem solved. Joeken, IMHO, is not to be dealt with.

take care,
Tec
Link Posted: 9/27/2003 4:04:00 AM EDT
Let the editor know your opinions....


SGNews@primediasi.com
Link Posted: 9/27/2003 9:07:46 AM EDT
I signed up over ther to help you out, but by time I got a confermation, it looked as if everything had blown over.

My favorite part was trying to read Bowhunts writing. It is like a 6 year old. By time you figure out you have been insulted or attacked, you need an brain enema to clear the shit out of your head.
Link Posted: 9/27/2003 9:54:33 AM EDT
I look forward to the next few years when it finally comes to light, who exactly is running that board......would not surprise me at all to see a 14 year old.........

Let dot nutz keep screwing their membership....

Thank god for the Avila's and AR15.COM


KF
Link Posted: 9/27/2003 11:29:56 AM EDT
"Critize"?

Funny, even if he used a spell checker we'd still know his posts. Hmm, maybe I should pick a new sig line from a more current offering...
Link Posted: 9/27/2003 2:45:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By innocent_bystander:
No my card wasn't charged. It really was petty and was blown way out of proportion. He kept promising to deliver something that he does not have in stock nor does he have any idea of when he is going to get it in stock. When you look at the add on his website it says nothing about the item not being in stock.



Sorry you were banned Bystander...

I am partly to blame I guess. I was the one who initially started the thread asking where the mags were. I didn't know that the order for the mags was a pre-order either.

I can appreciate Joeken's problems with the importers and I like the idea of being able to order the merchandise before some wholesaler buys them up. However, as I said in my messages, Joe needs to keep his customers informed. He should have a disclaimer next to the item on his website that we are only pre-ordering to reserve the merchandise when it comes in.

Problems in business happen all the time. But not to notify your customers, no matter how small, is eventually fatal. Maybe he doesn't have any business experience? Unfortunately it looks as if he might be getting ready to enroll in the school of hard knocks.
Link Posted: 9/27/2003 4:22:27 PM EDT
I appreciate the way that JoeKen has helped reduce prices from other vendors with their own aggressive pricing, and that a business will have some growing issues. But my order with them a year ago was going to ship the next day according to their order taker, and took weeks to get out. The mag thing is just oen of many orders that were reportedly erratically processed over the last year.
Contrast this to the pre-order Denny had for AK LULAS that went from start to finish in very little time.
Link Posted: 9/27/2003 6:42:08 PM EDT
Posted by A FAKE SEAL

Here is what you do contact the company via the telephone and ask for you stuff to be shipped asap or ask for a refund, unless someone is explainable, just ask for a refund If that does not work then contact us about it and if WE can't get it resolved then your more then welcome to post it in the REVIEWS Forum about your problem.


So if you can't get it resolved, it's Butthunters turn next. Then if the almight himself can't get it fixed from one of their vendors/sponsers, your can complain in the review forums, not the JOEKEN forum.

Can someone pay for boyhunter to take a remedial spelling and grammer class. My head hurts from reading his posts.
Link Posted: 9/28/2003 4:56:24 AM EDT
It's sounding more and more like JoeKen is just operating a ponzi scheme. They don't have the working capitol to make big purchases. I'm sure that's why Joe even told me that my card would be charged a few days before the order was shipped. When they get enough pre-orders to pay for their initial order then they make it, using your money to pay for it. Soon, if not already, this is going to backfire. Rumor has it that they are not even the importer. They are just a middle man. I checked and they aren't even incorporated in Arizona.
Link Posted: 9/28/2003 6:00:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By innocent_bystander:
It's sounding more and more like JoeKen is just operating a ponzi scheme. They don't have the working capitol to make big purchases. I'm sure that's why Joe even told me that my card would be charged a few days before the order was shipped. When they get enough pre-orders to pay for their initial order then they make it, using your money to pay for it. Soon, if not already, this is going to backfire. Rumor has it that they are not even the importer. They are just a middle man. I checked and they aren't even incorporated in Arizona.



Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...................
Link Posted: 9/28/2003 9:24:52 AM EDT
First off, I think it's pretty well-established that, with a few exceptions (mistakes?), JoeKen isn't charging cards way before arrival of product in the shop, or shipment of order.

On average, it seems that a week from charge to ship is how they're doing things (again, with some exceptions).

That's not that abnormal of a business practice, in the mail-order or internet-order world...

For what it's worth, my last (2nd) order from JoeKen was charged on Tuesday, and shipped on a Wednesday. It was ordered on the Thursday prior to shipment. Not the fastest turnaround, but far from the worst.

Also, out of curiosity, what's it matter if they're not incorporated? As far as I can recall, they've not advertised to be a corporation. The index page of their website advertises them as "JoeKen Firearms LLP".

LLP = Limited Liability Partnership. Not corporation. An LLC (Limited Liability Corporation) is a completely different business entity.

I can't profess to be an expert in Arizona business law, but I'd be surprised if there was a law that required an FFL Dealer or Importer to be incorporated.

If they've got an FFL, and they've registered as an LLP, it looks like they're obeying the major business laws regarding doing business in firearms.

Now, I know people around here don't like JoeKen for whatever reason (the majority, it seems, is due to their affiliation with ak-47.net), but I do have to take issue with someone crying wolf by calling out "fraud!", and then turning out that their credit card never was charged...

Hence, no fraud, just the much lamented poor communication and customer service.

I wholeheartedly agree - if there's something on their webpage that hasn't arrived yet, it needs to be listed as "PRE-ORDER" or something. If they're out of something, they need to mark it as "OUT OF STOCK". That's just common sense, but it's still not fraud or theft, unless they're taking your money, and not shipping you product.

Now, as much as I have issues with their customer service, if you've got a problem with them having charged you, and you haven't received your merchandise in the time they promised (or a "timely manner"), then you need to call, demand to speak with Joe, and tell him your issue. If you get the runaround, tell them that if you don't get this resolved immediately, you'll contact your credit card company, and go from there.

I have absolutely no problem with people writing a negative review of them, but the calls of "fraud" bother me.

Finally, for what it's worth, the Bulgarian waffles were, until recently, a forum/email pre-order deal only. They recently added them to their online store, but, with all the traffic on ak-47.net, it seemed pretty evident that these were a pre-order, and not in stock. I think most people realized that JoeKen didn't have them in stock, and put their name on a pre-order list...
Link Posted: 9/28/2003 2:03:20 PM EDT
The fraud accusation is against JoeKen's deletion of negative feedback in his trader rating on .net.
Link Posted: 10/3/2003 12:58:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By kythri:
As far as the waffles, JoeKen is selling them for $8.99/each, and the only other place I've seen them is KVAR for $17.99/each.



What? Were do you see $8.99? On the "Gunsnet Specials" page they are $12.99. If you buy 1000+ you can get them for $9.99 each. I don't see $8.99 anywhere. Let me know where I can find that price.

I have been looking all week for AK magazines. I have found plenty of other places to get Bulgarian Waffles. Other than JoeKen, K-VAR at $17.99 is the cheapest I have found.

I will be more than happy to buy a large amount to get the discount. I will turn around and sell them cheaper than $17.99. I just talked to them and they said they are "in country" and they are filling the large orders first. (1000+, dealers, etc.) So If I purchase them and have them in my hands and sell them under K-VARs price I shouldn't have a problem selling them right? Who wants some?
Link Posted: 10/3/2003 3:48:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By kythri:
First off, I think it's pretty well-established that, with a few exceptions (mistakes?), JoeKen isn't charging cards way before arrival of product in the shop, or shipment of order.

On average, it seems that a week from charge to ship is how they're doing things (again, with some exceptions).

That's not that abnormal of a business practice, in the mail-order or internet-order world...

For what it's worth, my last (2nd) order from JoeKen was charged on Tuesday, and shipped on a Wednesday. It was ordered on the Thursday prior to shipment. Not the fastest turnaround, but far from the worst.

Also, out of curiosity, what's it matter if they're not incorporated? As far as I can recall, they've not advertised to be a corporation. The index page of their website advertises them as "JoeKen Firearms LLP".

LLP = Limited Liability Partnership. Not corporation. An LLC (Limited Liability Corporation) is a completely different business entity.

I can't profess to be an expert in Arizona business law, but I'd be surprised if there was a law that required an FFL Dealer or Importer to be incorporated.

If they've got an FFL, and they've registered as an LLP, it looks like they're obeying the major business laws regarding doing business in firearms.

Now, I know people around here don't like JoeKen for whatever reason (the majority, it seems, is due to their affiliation with ak-47.net), but I do have to take issue with someone crying wolf by calling out "fraud!", and then turning out that their credit card never was charged...

Hence, no fraud, just the much lamented poor communication and customer service.

I wholeheartedly agree - if there's something on their webpage that hasn't arrived yet, it needs to be listed as "PRE-ORDER" or something. If they're out of something, they need to mark it as "OUT OF STOCK". That's just common sense, but it's still not fraud or theft, unless they're taking your money, and not shipping you product.

Now, as much as I have issues with their customer service, if you've got a problem with them having charged you, and you haven't received your merchandise in the time they promised (or a "timely manner"), then you need to call, demand to speak with Joe, and tell him your issue. If you get the runaround, tell them that if you don't get this resolved immediately, you'll contact your credit card company, and go from there.

I have absolutely no problem with people writing a negative review of them, but the calls of "fraud" bother me.

Finally, for what it's worth, the Bulgarian waffles were, until recently, a forum/email pre-order deal only. They recently added them to their online store, but, with all the traffic on ak-47.net, it seemed pretty evident that these were a pre-order, and not in stock. I think most people realized that JoeKen didn't have them in stock, and put their name on a pre-order list...



I placed an order on 8/21. My CC was charged on 8/22. I finally got a tracking number today (10/3). Enough said!
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