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Posted: 9/24/2003 12:47:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/24/2003 12:54:29 PM EDT by FAT-T]
What company do you think makes the best AK47? Iv'e been researching AKs for about two months now and want to take a pole.


Thanks for any input.
Link Posted: 9/24/2003 12:59:25 PM EDT
Well, I would sat Russian. But we cant get Russian here,

so whats the best AK we can get?

Hmm Either Bulgarian or Hungarian IMHO.
Link Posted: 9/24/2003 3:16:24 PM EDT
BTT.
Link Posted: 9/24/2003 5:12:54 PM EDT
I don't have a Russian Ak varient, but all that I have held appear to be really nice.

I really like the Bulgarian best. Chinese second. The Romanian, I think are about the lowest that I have seen. That being said, I have 8 of them, and they work just as well as any other AK.
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 3:17:16 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 6:12:24 AM EDT
the best AK47's are:

Chinese Polytec "Legend" milled receiver

Chinese Polytec "Type 56 with folding spike bayonet" stamped receiver
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 6:54:48 AM EDT
In terms of what you can just go and order right now and get new/soon for under $700: SAM7S from arsenalinc, VEPR K from Robinson Arms are the best I have had my hands on so far. But these also put you into the extra 1-2 lbs of a milled or RPK receiver.
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 7:03:56 AM EDT
You might also look at one from Ak-103.com (also known as ak-usa).
Nice product and Chris is a super guy to deal with.
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 7:11:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By texashark:
You might also look at one from Ak-103.com (also known as ak-usa).
Nice product and Chris is a super guy to deal with.



I keep reading the happy posts, and hope to get my hands on one someday. I am very happy with the US-made brake I got from him for my SAR1.
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 8:05:45 AM EDT
rs39,
do you have a pic of your sar-1 with that break on it?
john
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 9:39:18 AM EDT
Keep it coming, BTT.
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 10:01:30 AM EDT
One more vote for Bulgarian. Any gun made by Arsenal in Bulgaria. I have not shot the USA models yet..

Next in line another vote for Chinese Polytec Type 56
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 6:51:37 PM EDT
I love the new slr from arsenal inc.. couldn't find a sam-7.However both guns are top shelf, and are accurate for an AK. My very favorite AK varient is my preban underfolding sa-85m hungarian AKM.Hell even the postban sa-85m's are good quality weapons!
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 11:49:10 PM EDT
I’ve got a Bulgarian SLR-100H and think the world of it.
Link Posted: 9/26/2003 4:02:36 PM EDT
I'd Say SAM-7. I have one and it's SWEET!!
Link Posted: 9/26/2003 4:24:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1179:
rs39,
do you have a pic of your sar-1 with that break on it?
john



No but it looks just like the ones on their web site (ak-103.com). Compared to my Bulgy piece, it is different in only not having a chrome lining and being a 7.62 bore. Ober and I took turns shooting some AK47s with no brake, the ak-103 brake and the Chicom brake, and found the ak-103 brake to reduce recoil as measured by observed movement of the shooter while leaning into the gun on a bench by twice as much as the Chicom brake.
Link Posted: 9/26/2003 5:39:33 PM EDT
Galil
Link Posted: 9/27/2003 11:06:06 AM EDT
The best AK's made, are those assembled in the US by Robinson Amrmament....AKA the VEPER

Link Posted: 9/27/2003 11:46:00 AM EDT
The Bosnians I've interviewed who used the AK in combat universally prefered the Yugoslav (Crvena Zastava) AK over all the others.

Russian came in second.

I heard multiple tales of Chinese rifles with warped barrels due to full-auto fire.

Some of my interview participants were interpreters with MPRI, so had excellent command of english and matters mil.

I saw Romanian, Egyptian and Yugo AK's in private hands there as recently as Sept. 2002.
Link Posted: 9/28/2003 7:04:27 AM EDT
It looks like bulgarian takes
the cake. That will probably influence what I'm going to buy.


Thanks for the replys,
FAT-T
Link Posted: 9/28/2003 8:17:18 AM EDT
I really liked the VEPR-K...It is a bit heavy for an AK but I like the stock set a bit better, feels a little more ergonomical




But I recently puchased (2) of the Arsenal Inc. SA-M7 rifles and they are quickly becoming my favorite.




Just my 2 pesos


Link Posted: 9/28/2003 8:23:29 AM EDT
My SA M-7s is by far the nicest AK I have ever owned. Nicer than any of my old Chinese guns even the Polytech legend I had. I've never handled a Rusian stamped gun.
Link Posted: 10/3/2003 11:32:45 AM EDT
The only AK is the Soviet AK. Jugoslavian is also very good one providing that Zastava assembled their AK's with imported Soviet components, otherwise it is not the same. Good copies, yes, but not the same. Here is why. All countries try to make Russian AK47. The difference lies within the manufacturing process. Metalogy, chemical process and TLC cannot be duplicated by neighboring countries. Example: Soviet AK47 is designed for real warfare. You can keep firing it and the barrel will not warp, it will turn red but you can still fire. Chinese, Bulgarian, Polish, East German, Hungarian and Romanian etc., etc. are NOT military rifles. These rifles that you buy in America is good for plinking but in REAL combat, only Soviet AK-M is THE BEST!


Currently AK rifles made in Russia are not the same Ak47's that were made during Soviet times. Different processes in manufacturing and metal chemical treatment have changed. They are much better than what you can buy from imported Century Arms doo-doo. But that is it. If you want an AK that is good, buy Russian made ak's. Forget about bulgarian ak's with plastic furniture. It will melt if you are in a combat situation and then what?

The real AK47 was designed to deal with waves upon waves of enemy infantry, whats available to the general public today is nowhere near that.

If you like to plink, then buy the doo-doo and don't worry yourself, if you are preparing or anticapating warfare, get the real thing! Waiting for your rifle to cool off will get you killed :)


"please don't shoot me, my rifle is still too hot to touch!"

Enjoy target shooting for now. I hoope this was some help.
Link Posted: 10/3/2003 11:58:27 AM EDT
One last thing I forgot to mention...I am sure many of you have seen and purchased the plastic buffer for your ak-clones. There are a couple of companies that sell them who advertise that your ak will last longer. This is true. And thats because the clones are cheap-o metal. A real Soviet made AK47 does not need this. I actually laughed when I first saw them marketed on Red Star Arms.
Link Posted: 10/3/2003 11:59:34 AM EDT
As far as Bulgarian rifles being "doo-doo" because of their plastic furniture melting, don't the Russians put plastic furniture on their AK's as well, and haven't they been doing this for a while?

I'd think if there was a real problem with this, then they wouldn't be putting the furniture on, and they'd be sticking with the wood...
Link Posted: 10/3/2003 12:16:53 PM EDT
They are selling their AK's to the public. Big difference. Try firing any clone full auto and you will eventually melt the plastic hand grip! Wood grips will smoulder after long use on full auto and but they won't fall off.
Believe me, if I had to go into combat, I wouldn't take one of those with me. I'd at the least change the plastic front grips to wood.

Don't get me wrong, the clones are cool for going to the shooting range or taking out that burglar entering your home, but for REAL combat situation with pro-longed use, none of these clones stand up to the real McCoy. This is fact.
Link Posted: 10/3/2003 12:50:15 PM EDT
I called them "doo-doo" because the barrels will warp with pro-longed usage in fullauto, the plastic grips are a small headache to worry over. The real headache is the barrel warping, you either replace the barrel or throw it away. Lets see someone replace a barrel when bullets are whizzing over your head. NO COUNTRY HAS EVER COPIED EXACTLY THE TECHNOLOGY FOR MAKING THE SOVIET AK. ALL THE CLONES WILL FAIL IN REAL COMBAT PROLONGED full-auto use. The metal and the chemical process is just NOT the same with post-Soviet ak's and others made in different countries.

I wish this weren't the case, but its reality and unfortunately the REAL Russian AK's are difficult to acquire and VERYYYYY expensive if you can even find one here in the states. :(

Link Posted: 10/3/2003 2:12:44 PM EDT
I'm not calling you out or anything, but I'd be interested where you're getting your information.

The "clones" as you call them are from combloc countries, which I'd imagine were sold or given the AK tooling and everything to build this stuff.

Didn't Russia sell Iraq their AK factory, or something?

I can't imagine that the an authentic Russian AK-47 is really THAT superior to a Bulgarian AK-47, or any other make...

Everyone feel free to smack me down - like I said, I'm not an AK expert.

It's just that, what little I know about the AK, I can't imagine there'd be any kind of "cost savings" by using different metals or building styles - we're talking crappy cheap sheet metal...
Link Posted: 10/4/2003 7:17:02 AM EDT
In my experience, I would prefer an original Russian..

Shot an AKMS once semiauto(original russian made semiauto) and it fired very precise..

Second, an original Hungarian with milled receiver. I have one and it will shoot 2-3 cm groups all day long with barnaul ammo...

Third Bulgaria arms AK's, good workshorses(they all are btw)

Have shot several ChiCom AK's and I was not too impressed with them.....but that's just my experience..
Link Posted: 10/4/2003 10:44:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By StariVojnik:
I called them "doo-doo" because the barrels will warp with pro-longed usage in fullauto, the plastic grips are a small headache to worry over. The real headache is the barrel warping, you either replace the barrel or throw it away. Lets see someone replace a barrel when bullets are whizzing over your head. NO COUNTRY HAS EVER COPIED EXACTLY THE TECHNOLOGY FOR MAKING THE SOVIET AK. ALL THE CLONES WILL FAIL IN REAL COMBAT PROLONGED full-auto use. The metal and the chemical process is just NOT the same with post-Soviet ak's and others made in different countries.

I wish this weren't the case, but its reality and unfortunately the REAL Russian AK's are difficult to acquire and VERYYYYY expensive if you can even find one here in the states. :(




Nobody has every copied the technology of stamped sheet metal with rivets holding it together?

I refuse to believe that a Russian AK will outlast other AKs. The "technology" of the AK is so simple that even the worst made military AKs won't neccasarily fail before a Russian original.
Link Posted: 10/4/2003 12:30:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/4/2003 12:39:53 PM EDT by AgentFork]
I didn't know the Russians had some super barrel that would never warp!! I call bullshit. Any metal can warp. Especially the cheap stuff used to make a Russian bullet pipe.

Russians aren't exactly known for the quality of their products. The AK is simple to make: loose tolerances and easy to replicate. I know some people who will prefer Bulgarian hammer-forged chrome-lined AK barrels over the Russian. Russian receivers will break just like any other. It's not some super commie metal.

Also, someone mentioned this earlier, the Russians set up factories in ComBloc nations, and others. Factory 54 in Egypt, where the Maadi and MISR are made, was set up by the Soviets. Same tooling and processes. The Maadi and MISR are very close to the original Russian AKM. The only difference between the two is that the furniture is made of different wood on the two models.
Link Posted: 10/4/2003 3:46:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/4/2003 5:18:54 PM EDT by FAT-T]
Now now boys, be nice. There's no need for calling bullshit. All of this doesn't matter anyway as it's almost impossible to aquire a russian made ak. Got to go It's almost dinner time. Mmmmmm pork chops:)

Time for dessert I love "jello".
Edited for dessert.
Link Posted: 10/4/2003 5:07:19 PM EDT
As far as getting the barrel hot - I've seen several posts here from people who have bumped off their Romanian SAR's, gotten them red hot, smoked the forearms off, and testified that, once they cooled down, they fired just as accurate as before...

The AK isn't a precision weapon, from all accounts - it's a reliable tank, not a nimble jet fighter.

I'm honestly just curious for source material that documents how non-Russian AK's will "FAIL IN REAL COMBAT PROLONGED full-auto use".

I'm sure there's quite a few people here who have put thousands, or tens of thousands of rounds through an AK.

I've bumped several magazines through my MAK-90 with no problems at all.

How many people here have tested their AK rifles in "REAL COMBAT" ??
Link Posted: 10/5/2003 11:38:34 AM EDT
I have! oh waite.... that was a nightmare I had last night. Nevermind.

Does my 74 built on a Saiga receiver count as Russian? It says "Made in Russia by Izhmash" on the side.
Link Posted: 10/5/2003 12:09:26 PM EDT
Good, now you won't need a recoil buffer, and your receiver CAN'T break, due to superior Russian metallurgy.
Link Posted: 10/5/2003 12:23:06 PM EDT
Russian AKs use reverse engineering from UFOs found in Siberia. I thought everyone knew that.
Link Posted: 10/5/2003 12:34:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By innocent_bystander:
Russian AKs use reverse engineering from UFOs found in Siberia. I thought everyone knew that.



Wow!

Does the same hold true for Russian SKS's??

Maybe that explains why the local hock-shop is trying to push a Russian SKS for $750 (which is all beat to hell), and why they say it's SOOOOOOO much better than the unissued Yugo that I plan to pick up from InterOrdnance (for $180) once they're back in stock.
Link Posted: 10/6/2003 4:30:07 AM EDT
Its a funny thing how Islamic peoples in the mid to far east all prefer Russian made AK's for the personal carry weapon. What's more amusing is seeing every other AK clone for sale at the local markets that no-one wants to buy. :)

I'm telling you, it ain't the same. The Soviet process of manufacturing had not been paralleled since. :( We have a few good contenders but no cigar.


Bumpfiring - You said it exactly what i've been talking about. After you put several thousand rounds thru the clone and melt off the grips, turn the barrel hot red and then "LET IT COOL DOWN", heheh, while your waiting...im still shooting the Russian AK. Thats the difference. Soviet AK's have a higher heat tolerance level for their barrels. Call it magical pixy dust that the Ruskies sprinkled on their rifles LOL, but seriously, they did make a better AK. :)

Send an email to one of the Russian manufacturing companies and ask them if this is true or not. Hopefully someone will take the time to answer the question.

Commodities usually become cheaper in quality and cost as time moves along. Manufactures always find a cost saving solution in their products. Its all about the cut.

Here's my list of AK's, from best to worst...

SOVIET AK47
JUGOSLAVIAN
Russian Federation AK's
FINNISH
BULGARIAN - HUNGARIAN
CHINESE - EGYPTIAN
POLISH - ROMANIAN - EAST-GERMAN


Link Posted: 10/6/2003 4:53:50 AM EDT
Is that why Israeli commandoes use Chinese made Kalashnikovs when deniability is a huge factor? SEALs?

Trust me, if it is Russian, it will usually rust out after 20 yrs. The Kalashnikov is one of the few things they did right.

Wanna know why there are so many Russian AKs in Afghanistan? Ivan's been there before, left a lot of bodies and weapons behind. Guess the superior Russian AK wasn't enough to save them from Chinese supplied Kalashnikovs. They seemed to work just fine during "real combat".

Factory 58, Cugir, and other Kalashnikov factories were set up by the Soviet Union, with the same tooling and specs as any other Kalashnikov factory.
Link Posted: 10/6/2003 5:23:40 AM EDT
I thought it was the "Stinger" that kicked IVAN out of Afganhi-land not the Chinese ak? As a matter of fact the Afghani's were losing until the US introduced the "equalizer" into the arean. Incredible how one small piece of tech practically grounded the Soviet Air-force. HA!

I've been to Yemen, Saudi Arabia all over the middle east, and the locals that i've broken bread and chewed khat with swear by their Kalashnikovs. And your right, it is one of the few things the Soviets did right.

Link Posted: 10/6/2003 10:05:44 PM EDT
OK. Sorry if I came off harsh. I just thought you were one of those peeps who come in claiming Russian=best at everything.

My bad.

The Stinger played a huge role, but it didn't kill the infantry. Some mujahadeens with .303 Enfields would camp up in the hills and take pot shots, and usually get lucky. Plus, in my opinion, an AK is an AK, and we did supply some locals with lots of Chinese weapons, including AK variants. Any moron with an automatic rifle can be lucky. Those Chinese weapons apparently reached enough lucky morons.
Link Posted: 10/7/2003 1:52:02 AM EDT
Any specifics on why exactly the Russian AK is better? 4150 barrel steel or something? Anything other than they’re manufactured with better metallurgy or chemical process. I am aware of the TLC part but I gotta tell ya, those pre ban Polytech Legends on milled receivers look right as rain.

Best regards, J
Link Posted: 10/7/2003 1:56:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By StariVojnik:
...After you put several thousand rounds thru the clone and melt off the grips...



If you put several thousand rounds through anything, you’re gonna melt or burn the grips right off of it, Russian or not.

J
Link Posted: 10/7/2003 3:44:07 AM EDT
Apparently there is a considerable difference in the chemical process that the Soviets used in the AK's metal. This process greatly improved the metal and thus the performance. Today, the fabrication is the same but the chemical process is not.

THE CHEMICAL TREATMENT OF METAL IS A KEY COMPONENT OF THE SOVIET AK. THIS TREATMENT WAS NEVER DIVULGED TO OTHER FORMER WARSAW PACT NATIONS. YES THE SOVIETS SET UP FACTORIES BUT THEY NEVER GAVE UP THE CHEMICAL RECIPE. And that is the difference.

Everyone uses there own chemical treatments nowadays.



No, im not one of those guys who thinks everything the Russians did was better than anyone else. Actually they have many great thinkers and mathematicians but their production lines in almost everything they make I am leary of.

BUT THE AK THEY MADE WAS RIGHT.
Link Posted: 10/8/2003 1:04:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/8/2003 1:36:17 PM EDT by SSR-99]
Starivojnik wrote:

"Apparently there is a considerable difference in the chemical process that the Soviets used in the AK's metal. This process greatly improved the metal and thus the performance. Today, the fabrication is the same but the chemical process is not.

THE CHEMICAL TREATMENT OF METAL IS A KEY COMPONENT OF THE SOVIET AK. THIS TREATMENT WAS NEVER DIVULGED TO OTHER FORMER WARSAW PACT NATIONS. YES THE SOVIETS SET UP FACTORIES BUT THEY NEVER GAVE UP THE CHEMICAL RECIPE. And that is the difference."


OH PLEEEEEEEAAASE! LOL!!!

The Bulgarians use the same synthetics on their civilian semi autos as they use on their full autos........with no problems! Heck, they even base theirs on whatever the Ruskies are currently using.

Another example, in the K-VAR catalog, they state that the Bulgarian Arsenal has an AK that has fired over 300,000 rounds using the same barrel.

Hmmmmmmmmm, they must have found that top secret Russian steel recipe! LOL!

This whole "vee Rooshans make tha bast AK in zee vorld, because we has tha bast metal recipe", sounds like a bunch of "hoss-shit" to meee......LOL!

Everyone says that they have the best this or that, but in many cases, it's just hype and pride, over reality. Kalashnikov himself had great things to say about the AK specimens from Bulgaria. And I'm sure there are countries that meet, and in some cases, exceed the Russian specimens. As I'm also sure that some fall well short of them.

Sure, contact the Russian AK builders and ask them if they have produced the best AK specimens ever............what would one expect them to say.........NO! LOL!!!
Hello........ask just about any foreign AK builder, and they will most likely say the same exact thing!

"vee makes zee bast in zee whole vorld" LOL!

Okee dokey Arnold ........ :)

Remember folks.......it's all in that special metallurgical Rooossian recipe. Shhhhh, don't let the others know.......zay may try to copeee zit......LOL!!!

The following is not meant to be a racial slur, just an "old school" street slang I used to use when someone was trying to pull my leg.........

N*gger please!

OR

Usted habla mucha mierda!



Link Posted: 10/8/2003 1:06:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Thunderbolt:
the best AK47's are:

Chinese Polytec "Legend" milled receiver



Amen. I say this because I own one, and nothing else I've ever seen AK-wise even comes close to the quality.

That being said, I've not seen the Arsenal Arms variants, which I hear are SUPER good.
Link Posted: 10/8/2003 4:12:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SSR-99:

N*gger please!





HEY, Don't be throwing the N word around here, CRACKER.
Link Posted: 10/9/2003 3:56:56 AM EDT
Has anybody seen the Castrol Syntec Commercial?

Apply the commercial to the Soviet AK and then you might get the point!
Link Posted: 10/9/2003 4:38:05 AM EDT
Oh.......now that you put it that way, now I get it!!!

LOL!!!

By the responses in this thread thus far, I would say that your claims of this super duper incredible Russian steel, are being looked at as less than credible.

Anybody can come in and state some ridiculous claims.........and it will be looked at as just that.........ridiculous!

I mean lets be honest here........the Russians helped set up their controlled nation buddies with machinery, specifications and such, but would not release the info on what type of steel they were using?........... PLEEAASE!!!

Even if they did not, so what! Every country has it's Metallurgical folks, and each part could be guaged for what type of use and stress it would receive, and then an appropriate steel and hardning process can be chosen.

This whole "special super duper steel" thing that nobody else could achieve..........ba humbug!!! :)

And that's just it guys, these are not facts, just oppinions and unfounded statements.

Someone could have come in and said the exact same thing about any other country of origin AK, and it would be looked at in the same way we are now looking at this posters claims...........unfounded.


Now, I may be able to believe the UFO theory..........LOL!!! :)







Link Posted: 10/9/2003 5:12:16 AM EDT
I said they never released the receipe meaning the "chemical formula". Some of you have to understand that building an AK is not simply taking some sheet metal or billet and slapping the parts togeher. There are chemical and heat processes involved designed specificly for strengthening the metal. You would be surprised how much science & tech the Russians have not disclosed to the public and its neighboring commrads. Thats why they are called VARIANTS...each one is a little different than the other...each one may use a slighty different heat process or a slightly different chemical process, etc. Like I said earlier, the Soviet AK has never since been matched!

BTW, your accent is lousy. HA! :)
Link Posted: 10/9/2003 5:37:17 AM EDT
You keep repeating yourself, but it will not change the fact that what you offer are unsubstantiated claims.

The Russians are the original manufacturers of this design, and they may have used quality steels for their AK-47's, but that does not mean that places like Poland, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, etc, etc, were unable to produce steel that was at least as good, if not better than anything the Russians were using.

Your claims...........they are just that.......claims! Unfounded at that!


The fact is..........your claims are "UNSUBSTANTIATED"...........that seems to be the only "FACT" here :)


You probably would not be able to guess what many members here are doing while reading your claims.............but my guess would be that they are covering their mouths and coughing with a sound that resembles the word "Bullshit"!

Your oppinion that you believe the Russian AK's to be the best......is fine!

But.....saying that the Russian steel used in the original Russian AK-47 was better than anything since............well, lets just say that I doubt many are taking that claim very seriously.......LOL!!! :)




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