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Posted: 9/9/2003 12:32:27 PM EDT
Since this is where the AK guys hang out, I am not looking for a "fair and balanced" discussion. I am no AR expert either. I do have an AR and I plan to get 1 or 2 more. A few years ago when I got my first AR a friend got his first AK. When we hit the range that weekend, we came away with the feeling that the AK had "won" the day. We were both new to both types of guns, and since then, I am comfortable with both. Later, I even bought a saiga .410 so I could have an AK action to mess with. Simple, tough and reliable.

So now that I am planning ahead for an SBR, I can't help but think AK? The Beretta storm in .45 coud also be a good choice and in the end who needs an excuse to buy more guns?

So lets say SBR for use 100 yards and under, maybe 150 yards. A beater gun, in the truck too. Compact and a real shooter, and assume the AWB dies like it should next September. So using the best of what the AK has to offer is it a better choice for an SBR?

Fire away you "commie gun" lovers.
Link Posted: 9/9/2003 12:49:24 PM EDT
IMHO, the only AK sbr worth the effort is a krink.

Krinks have a charm all their own. I don't easily compare it to any other SBR including an AR.

Krinks got the style, AR's got the versitility. Your choice.

Link Posted: 9/9/2003 2:24:22 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/9/2003 3:29:33 PM EDT
Because you can!!

Mike
Link Posted: 9/9/2003 3:37:36 PM EDT
Well, I would say that the Krink is about 5x more badass looking then any SBR AR, except maybe one of those Z-M weapons LR300MLs... but you get the idea.

One big thing to consider, if you care about the actual "effectiveness" of the rifle, is that the 5.56x45mm round is very velocity dependent, while the 5.45 round normally used in a Krink, is not.

Another thing would be that ARs tend to suffer reliability issues when their barrel is brought below a certain length, while the AK system doesn't seem to have that problem. It has to do with the gas systems of the two rifles.

Final thing would be that the AKS-74U has proven to be an effective design, and the proliferation of it and it's variants is a testiment to that. On the other hand, the shorty (10.5/11.5) ARs/M16s have been troubled throughout there existance.
Link Posted: 9/9/2003 4:11:37 PM EDT
What a easy question, suprised no one has answered it the best way yet,, do em both....

I plan on it, one day when the krink comes home from INRANGE..... And the ar paperwork is done, waiting on the 200 dollars to appear in my wallet.
Link Posted: 9/9/2003 5:20:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2003 5:25:55 PM EDT by Zoub]

Originally Posted By AJjer_Bullets:
Another thing would be that ARs tend to suffer reliability issues when their barrel is brought below a certain length, while the AK system doesn't seem to have that problem. It has to do with the gas systems of the two rifles.................
On the other hand, the shorty (10.5/11.5) ARs/M16s have been troubled throughout there existance.



That is what I was wondering about most. I can read up and compare ballistics, but the shorty AR and we are talking 10.5"+, seems to have a fair amount of issues and you have to use specific ammo to be effective. I see you guys talking about Krinks and they seem to be all the way down to 5.5", which may be shorter than I need, but still it is interesting that the gun is reliable at those lengths. The AR brings up all kinds of debate even at 11".

And the caliber may be more effective in close?

I may still do an AR but only after the AWB dies because I don't feel like playing the preban game yet and I would want a silencer on it. With my AR experience, I think I will have more confidence in an AK under my truck seat still working if I have neglected it some.
Link Posted: 9/9/2003 5:34:38 PM EDT
Wait a minute, I was thinking 7.62. Why would I use the 5.45? I wanted to punch big holes.
Link Posted: 9/9/2003 5:45:21 PM EDT
SBR KRINK for sure over an AR.....

....Well.....Unless it is the 4" one i got to shoot again last sunday on the FA lower...

Too cool for words...Video will be available soon...but the sound doesnt do it justice...

KyARGuy
Link Posted: 9/9/2003 5:55:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Zoub:
Wait a minute, I was thinking 7.62. Why would I use the 5.45? I wanted to punch big holes.



LMFAO. Have you any idea of the muzzle blast on that beast? Have you any idea the effect of the recoil?

Yes, a big blast but uncontrollable. You may as well go for a SBR M14...
Link Posted: 9/9/2003 6:23:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By RebelGray:

Originally Posted By Zoub:
Wait a minute, I was thinking 7.62. Why would I use the 5.45? I wanted to punch big holes.



LMFAO. Have you any idea of the muzzle blast on that beast? Have you any idea the effect of the recoil?

Yes, a big blast but uncontrollable. You may as well go for a SBR M14...



You mean on one of these 5" wonder jobbies? But with 5.45 they are OK?

What about 7.62 with a 10" barrel. I don't need shorter than 10.5" since that is the length of the AR I would go with.
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 6:27:43 PM EDT
5.45 is THE Krinkov round. The 7.62 ones are basically novelties as far as actual application. What I'm saying is that a 5.45 Krink will be superior to a 5.56 SBR AR, but with similarly light recoil, and managable blast.
Link Posted: 9/11/2003 8:39:47 AM EDT
If you are going to pay your taxes, I really would suggest the AR over the AK... On my M-16, which I was foolish enough to sell, I had a few uppers including a 5-inch 22LR upper, 11.5-inch 9mm, 11.5-inch and 14.5-inch (both in 5.56).

With the AR-15 it is so easy to swap uppers to gain new barrel lengths, cartridges, or even types of system. With the AK-47, you only get what you build....

Now, with that said, if the crime bill does I am seriously considering SBRing one of my OOW AKM receivers and building a Krink style custom. It may not be a versitile as the AR-15 SBR but it would make a really fun addition to my safe.

Also note, the AR-15 SBR comes first for me so I plan to have both...

For now, at least for the AKM project, I am waiting to see what the Crime Bill does or doesn't do as I prefer to SBR new AK receiver and build with all the evil features then to buy a preban and cut at it. My only complete AK is a Post Ban SAR-1 and SBRing it just wouldn't pay.
Link Posted: 9/11/2003 4:34:52 PM EDT
I think we all are forgetting the AR15.com Motto! GET BOTH!................UNDERDOG
Link Posted: 9/12/2003 4:54:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By underdog75:
I think we all are forgetting the AR15.com Motto! GET BOTH!................UNDERDOG



Isn't that normally the advise given in regards to the AR-15 vs AR-10 question?

Hell, buy a bigger safe and get one of everything... that seems to be my moto anymore!
Link Posted: 9/14/2003 3:00:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Quarterbore:
Hell, buy a bigger safe and get one of everything... that seems to be my moto anymore!



I'd think that you can get 1.5-2 times the number of SBRs into a safe than you can full sized rifles.

With that being said I think a SBR 7.62x39 with a 75rd drum on it would be super cool!
Link Posted: 9/14/2003 7:42:23 PM EDT
Buy an AMD65 parts kit, Hesse receiver, and build. The barrel on AMD65 is 12.4 inches, and it has a very nice side folding stock that is easy to inlet into the receiver, unlike the underfolder kits. OJF
Link Posted: 9/19/2003 6:14:20 PM EDT
Having both a 7.5"AR and a 5.45 Krinkov (not SBR but the fake can on the front isn't giving not taking away, since the barrel leingth is original) I, if I had to choose just ONE, I'd go with the AR because its VERY fun, more people have ARs and always love to look at and shoot the shortie.

The Ar in a 7.5" barrel has a flash about 2ft long and kicks like a mule. I had the pleasure of shooting it INSIDE last weekend, DAMN!!! the sound was incredible(even with "ears on" and the concussion of every shot was like being punched i nthe chest. At the time the muzzle was 1ft from the wall shooting through a hole 1ft wide 6ft tall. Still everything stayed inside.

The 5.45 would have more devestating power on a soft target because of the tumbling effect on impact that is (still) built into the bullet.
The Krinkov is also nice because there are no (REAL) commercialy made rifles, most are custom made.


BISHOP
Link Posted: 9/20/2003 9:53:06 AM EDT
I have an AK104 that I had built with the intention of SBRing it when the ban expires. When it comes to making the decision, I know that the AR platform makes it easier to work with with rebarreling and such, but I know that I have used short AR's before that were very finicky to get to cycle and then I have to use the proper ammunition to get the best performance out of it. I understand I have to do this with any ammunition, but it seems the .223 is more finicky in that regard. My 7.62x39 however will still maintain pretty decent knockdown in a short package when I get it done. It will be three inches longer than a Krink and will still have the maneuverability of a shorter rifle. The loose tolerances of the AK system I would think would make it better to run a shorter gun, and the accuracy doens't suffer as it's meant to be a very close range weapon anyhow. I'm still tired from waking up from the night shift, so this babble might not make sense until I read and edit it later.
Link Posted: 9/23/2003 6:28:10 AM EDT
Zoub, I am a new convert to the AK-Klan. Having used AR's professionally for the past 14 years, it is a NICE change!

I keyed on a choice phrase of yours "A beater gun, in the truck too."

Just that phrase alone screams AK over AR.

I have decided to go with the 5.45 from hearing of Afghani's who call it the "Poison Bullet". As those that were hit with it, usually ended up dying from internal wounds.

Course the same backwater third-world country locals look at the cartridge and scoff at 5.45 and chose the 7.62 round. But I believe that is due to ignorance.

Sheer size doesn't matter, expending all of your projectiles energy in the contacted mass matters!
Link Posted: 9/24/2003 12:27:20 AM EDT

The 7.62x39 round is more effective. In afghanistan, the AARs I read were complaining about the underpowered M16s compared to the local x39s.

The 7.62 is larger, expends energy at the same, or greater rate, and has far more energy to expend. I've seen nothing in the ballistic tests that support the idea that .223 is more effective (or even as effective) as 7.62.

I'm not an expert... but I think a lot of the mythology around the .223 is mistaken, gun-store-expert talk.

If weight is a critical factor, and a lighter bullet is important enough, then go .223. Otherwise, if you want an effective round, go 7.62x39, or .308.

You can get AKs in 308 with 16 inch barrels.

I think Zoub might be confused-- IF the AWB expires in 2004, that will not suddenly make suppressors and sbrs legal-- those are covered by the 30s era ban, and so they will still be controlled. I don't think the AWB would affect them at all.

Link Posted: 9/24/2003 8:22:21 AM EDT
DG- good info, if that was a rebuttal to my post, I am proferring the 5.45x39 cartridge, not the 5.56x45 cartridge, over the 7.62x39 cartridge.

Link Posted: 9/24/2003 9:51:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/24/2003 9:58:49 AM EDT by Zoub]

Originally Posted By DonGalt:
I think Zoub might be confused-- IF the AWB expires in 2004, that will not suddenly make suppressors and sbrs legal-- those are covered by the 30s era ban, and so they will still be controlled. I don't think the AWB would affect them at all.


My thought is I am not going to pay pre-ban prices to play the Silencer game. I don't mind paying $200 to make an SBR or to buy a can, but once the AWB dies I would immediately have the barrel threaded, same goes for all my guns.

So any post ban SBR I make today may be threaded in the future and legal to use with a can.

In making a beater/truck gun, an SBR has obvious real value. You can sit down and compare calibers, and you can even get most of these calibers in either an AR or an AK set up. What concerns me is the stories of AR SBR's being finicky. finicky is not a word I hear used much when describing an AK. It seems to me the issue with AR's may be to buy a commando upper as opposed to cutting down an existing longer one. Buying a purpose built upper may be the key?

A 10" or 12" barrel with a can would have a lot of benefit, regardless of gun type being used, the main issue then would be reliability.

What I want to avoid is buying 3 or 4 guns or uppers to figure this all out. At closer range, in my mind the .308 may be a better caliber. In a 12" barrel with a can, it may be awesome. If I get an AK I just want to make sure I buy the right one if I SBR it later, I want it to work.

From what I see in these posts, no one says the AK does not perform well as an SBR. The discussion seems to be more focused on caliber choice. Krink 5.45 versus the .308

All of these posts are a great help to me. In a perfect world I may be able to figure all of this out before I buy another gun. In the mean time I am going to build a light weight AR for my wife and daughter to use. Good platform for a commando upper later.

I guess to sum it up, with my limited experience, it seems an AK SBR makes a good beater in the truck and an AR SBR in the house with a can.
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