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Posted: 7/29/2003 7:21:46 PM EDT
I wasnt sure if I should ask this here or the shotgun forum but anyway I want to get one of them in 12 gauge but I hate the stocks on them. Whould it be legal for me to make a thumbhole stock for it or do they consider those to be pistol grips now ? Also I heard that the magazines from the USAS12 can be modified to work in the saiga's can anyone confirm that ?
Link Posted: 7/29/2003 8:02:24 PM EDT
thumbholes are considered pistolgrips, so that is a nono.

Auto shotguns can have a detachable mag of any capacity OR a fixed mag of no more than five rounds. But everybody seems to be too scared to import mags over five rounds. I dunno about conversion details, but I think it would be legal so long as the rifle had no other evil feature.
Link Posted: 7/29/2003 8:11:47 PM EDT
I want to be clear on this too... 8 round Saiga magazines are okay??? Are you sure???

Y-
Link Posted: 7/29/2003 9:22:26 PM EDT
Wait until september of next year, then it will be ok. :-)
Link Posted: 7/30/2003 8:19:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/30/2003 8:25:48 AM EDT by drobs]

Originally Posted By MRW:
thumbholes are considered pistolgrips, so that is a nono.

Auto shotguns can have a detachable mag of any capacity OR a fixed mag of no more than five rounds. But everybody seems to be too scared to import mags over five rounds. I dunno about conversion details, but I think it would be legal so long as the rifle had no other evil feature.



I asked Krebs about converting a Saiga 12 ga over to be more ak like. Big time fedral no no. Krebs said the same thing about the mags higher caps are sold oversees but haven't made it here yet.

I'd love to have one with a pistol grip folding stock like this one.




Awesome, bet that would help out in a 3 gun competition!

For more drool factor check out the Izhmash website at:

www.izhmash.ru/eng/product/weapon.shtml

That reminds me I need to get one of these quick before they go the route of the USAS 12.

Link Posted: 7/30/2003 8:59:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By drobs:

Originally Posted By MRW:
thumbholes are considered pistolgrips, so that is a nono.

Auto shotguns can have a detachable mag of any capacity OR a fixed mag of no more than five rounds. But everybody seems to be too scared to import mags over five rounds. I dunno about conversion details, but I think it would be legal so long as the rifle had no other evil feature.



I asked Krebs about converting a Saiga 12 ga over to be more ak like. Big time fedral no no. Krebs said the same thing about the mags higher caps are sold oversees but haven't made it here yet.

I'd love to have one with a pistol grip folding stock like this one.
www.izhmash.ru/pix/saiga12k.jpg

www.izhmash.ru/pix/saiga12c_exp01.jpg

Awesome, bet that would help out in a 3 gun competition!

For more drool factor check out the Izhmash website at:

www.izhmash.ru/eng/product/weapon.shtml

That reminds me I need to get one of these quick before they go the route of the USAS 12.




Do you mean the DD route? cuz if so than yer to late. If one shopws up in the states as say a dealer sample or as an LE only sale it would be a DD
Link Posted: 7/30/2003 1:17:45 PM EDT
Detachable mag of more than 5 rounds in an autoloading shotgun makes it an assault weapon.

www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/wbardwel/public/nfalist/atf_letter87.txt
Link Posted: 7/30/2003 2:17:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By eodinert:
Wait until september of next year, then it will be ok. :-)



Umm I'm not so sure. Next year's lifting of the ban (assuming it happens) will apply to domestic firearms only.

The imports are covered under another regulation (actually an executive order) and once imported if you change them to an 'non importable' condition then they are considered illegal.

Only way around it is to have someone make enough US parts to make the shotgun 'domestic'.
Link Posted: 7/30/2003 2:36:39 PM EDT
US Parts when the AW ban dies: butt, grip, handguard, H,T,S. Done deal.

take care,
Tec
Link Posted: 7/30/2003 4:10:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MRW:
thumbholes are considered pistolgrips, so that is a nono.

Auto shotguns can have a detachable mag of any capacity OR a fixed mag of no more than five rounds. But everybody seems to be too scared to import mags over five rounds. I dunno about conversion details, but I think it would be legal so long as the rifle had no other evil feature.



Your info is incorrect. I've been selling ATI Druganov Saiga converted stocks for almost a year now and they're ATF approved.

They're perfectly legal and *are not* pistol grips. They are *thumbhole* stocks, THUS the difference.
Link Posted: 7/30/2003 5:34:32 PM EDT
Rebelgray, are you sure they aren't ATF approved for Saiga rifles? It's been long thought to be a fact that what was once a thumbhole is now a pistol grip as far as they are concerned. If we've all been wrong, then that's good, as I think a Saiga 12 with a wooden drag stock and a PSO added would have a sorta Vintorez kinda look. Very cool.
Link Posted: 7/30/2003 5:48:08 PM EDT
RebelGray, you're confused. The poster is right when he said that thumbholes are now considered Pistol Grips. The ATF interpretation changed several years ago...at one time they made a distinction between the two, and then they did an about face and changed their opinion. It's all part of our weakening rights...inch by inch they take, and the sheeple say 'well..*next* time I'll actually vote'.

Anyway, I'm rambling...yeah, no thumbholes on unmodified Saiga rifles per the ATF, and no thumbholes at all on Saiga shotguns. Them's the rules..now go get legislatively active you slackers!:)

take care,
Tec
Link Posted: 7/30/2003 5:50:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/30/2003 6:17:05 PM EDT by Shooter521]
AKsRule:

The letter in your link stated more than 5 rounds in a FIXED magazine. This evil feature is distinct from a "detachable magazine" (for which a capacity is not specified). Basically it refers to the tube mags on conventional semi-auto shotguns, such as my Remington 11-87P and the Mossberg 9200 that was the focus of the letter in question.

RebelGray:

Here's an ATF letter that says T-hole stocks ARE pistol grips, and are no-no's on semi-auto AK rifles (and by extension, shotguns) with 10 or more imported parts:
www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/atf_letter32.txt

So on an imported semi-auto rifle, you can substitute in the required number of US parts and add the Drag stock just as you would a pistol grip. But because semi-auto shotguns use a different set of Evil Features, this same procedure wouldn't be legal on a Saiga-12, unless and until the AWB goes away.

I'd be curious to see your ATF letter that says otherwise.

Link Posted: 7/30/2003 6:21:15 PM EDT
Let me find the letter first, I'll post a scan of it as soon as I can find my scanner. I've been moding the stocks on my own and have dozens of very happy customers. I've been shooting matches with my own Saiga 12 so modified for almost a year now and never have gotten any questions on the legality. Me thinks this is a case of craphouse lawyering here...

If thumbholes are illegal then tens of thousands of un-modified MAK-90s and other imports with no American parts so fitted with imported and choate and ATI druganov stocks are now illegal too.

In the end if you let them take away your rights though, you're just as bad as they are.

Beyond the stock issue, stand and fight folks, stop bowing to this crap and may'be they'll stop making laws like it.
Link Posted: 7/30/2003 6:48:50 PM EDT
I'd like to see that letter too. I have my own letter addressed to *me* from the ATF regarding thumbholes and Saiga12's. I wrote the tech branch because I had hoped to injection mold an FNP90-esque ergonomic bullpup for the Saiga12. Basically, they said the FNP90 was considered a thumbhole, and thus a pistol grip. This was about two years ago. The .410 shotgun is more of a gray area, because that could almost be considered a rifle, and thus legal with a pistol grip and the right US parts. I'm not sure what the legal definition of a 'shotgun' is. The .410 just doesnt' do it for me though.

MAK's and the numerous other thumbhole rifles that came in between 89 and 9xish were grandfathered under the old ruling. Personally, I think the ATF was just embarassed by their own interpretation of a bizarre law, so they just put an end to it all. Sucks.

take care,
Tec
Link Posted: 7/30/2003 7:21:22 PM EDT
Tec_Nine has got it about the Mak90s and such. Saigas don't fall under the grandfathering thing, so they can't have them. However, Rebelgray, if the ATF did indeed send you such a letter, even incorrectly, I would consider it legal protection, and keep on making the stocks. I'd take one if I had a Saiga shotgun
Link Posted: 7/31/2003 12:01:09 AM EDT
I found the letter, but I'm still looking for my scanner. If I cant find it by friday I'll take it into Kinkos and post it.

There are about ten other people who have either put their own stock, or built a number of other druganov type stocks for others on the basis of this.

I know of at least 50 weapons off the top of my head with converted triggers and Druganov type, or thumbhole at the very least, stocks on their 12s and 20s. This is the first I've ever heard of any such nonsense about a "new ATF ruling". On the other hand this is most definitly NOT the first time the ATF has given contrary rulings on the same subject. Its why I'm prepared to hand over my lead first if ever I'm confronted with any sort of trouble on this front if I'm faced with 'going down'. Better to die on your feet then live on your knees.
Link Posted: 7/31/2003 7:11:13 AM EDT
"Do you mean the DD route? cuz if so than yer to late. If one shopws up in the states as say a dealer sample or as an LE only sale it would be a DD"

Photoman, my fear is that the plain jane Saiga 12 will go the DD route. I posted the above pics to show what is possible.
Link Posted: 7/31/2003 10:25:10 AM EDT
drobs:

I've "heard" (and you know how that goes) BATFE threatened to reclassify the Saiga-12 as a DD if EAA imported any 8rd mags for sale to citizens, basically intimidating them into restricting sales to LE only, even though no law requires such. Then BATFE says that because the Saiga-12 CAN accept a >5rd capacity mag (even though none have been imported) it is subject to the AWB regulations. Aargh. Then when Wes @ SoupBowl enterprises attempted to remove the Saiga-12 from the purview of the AWB by modifying the gun to take a proprietary 5rd mag (thus no "hi-caps" available), they wouldn't allow it. F*ckers!!

I agree in principle with RebelGray, and in fact I nominate him to be our test case! :-) Personally, I can wait 13 months or so until the AWB dies.



Link Posted: 7/31/2003 1:22:24 PM EDT
Great, I love being on point.
Any of you rich guys who want to fund me willing to get me Johnny Cochrain and F.Lee Bailey?

You have to know that there is no way to beat them in the courts anymore. Personaly I'd just do it and deal with the fact one morning you're going to either have to fight them and risk death, or just give up and risk imprisonment, or at the very least being treated like a con in your own country.
Link Posted: 7/31/2003 5:14:46 PM EDT
Well what about a stock made like the ones on the Thompson center single shot rifles ? Ya know how its almost a pistol grip but not quite a pistol grip ? It looks almost like it could be a pistol grip but it sweeps up into the shoulder stock and is one piece that would be legal wouldnt it ?
Link Posted: 8/2/2003 7:57:16 AM EDT
Rebel-
What does the Siaga-12 look like with the ATI stock on them? Do you have a pic you can post?
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