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Posted: 7/1/2003 4:57:18 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/1/2003 5:06:01 AM EDT
My biggest question is how many shots did the idiot fire over the berm?

The odds that only one shot went over and hit that house are very low, and it seems likely that some moron fired many rounds over the berm for some reason.

I don't think I even saw any dirt clouds from rounds more than halfway up the hill even from the machineguns.
Link Posted: 7/1/2003 5:26:21 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/1/2003 5:40:44 AM EDT
Thats great Campy. It really was a great place to shoot. It's about as safe as you can get and provided plenty of room.

Now, if stupid people keep it safe we can have a BF VI.

It took a lot of guts to call the event early. It was a respectable and correct decision.

Next year will be great.

I learned a lot about some of my guns while there from other memebers and got to shoot some cool stuff from other members.
Link Posted: 7/1/2003 5:44:48 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/1/2003 5:56:10 AM EDT
WOW. I really didn't believe this was going to fly again. Or at the least, it would be an invite only event.

Thanks Campy for putting up with all of us.



Brick
Link Posted: 7/1/2003 6:29:57 AM EDT
Wonderful!!!!!!!

It should not be hard to raise a modest cash fund to put up the one neighbor/horses living way over the hills somewhere else for a day just in case.

Link Posted: 7/1/2003 7:18:57 AM EDT
That is fantastic news Bob. Please pass my thanks along to the Snode family for allowing us to to use their property. Better yet, post their mailing address so we can send along some thank you messages.

I was worried that after this incident there might not be a Bulltfest V or that it might become the CampyBob Invitational. Looks like I have something to look foreword to next year.

Did you get an accurate count as to how many shooters showed up? I am guessing that it was in the area of 800 - 1000. Am I close?

Thanks again Bob for one hell of a good time.
Link Posted: 7/1/2003 7:27:05 AM EDT
EXCELLENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We're already there.

We did a lot of conversing and evaluation of the format for logistical improvement. I've got a rundown outline of a bunch of notes I can get to you to discuss on how to better manage the line, etc... whenever you want.

Link Posted: 7/1/2003 7:47:54 AM EDT
I enjoyed the 'fest. I had a great time in the campground. There are some things that could be done to make it better.
There are more people than shooting positions. I didn't make it to the line in time. I brought 8500 rounds. A few folks were kind enough to let me shoot out of their positions. I shot less than 300 rounds. I drove 14 hours to get there, 14 hours back and mostly I watched other people shoot. That was somewhat disappointing. Reserving a space in advance would be a good thing. Especially for those traveling a great distance.
This was the only time I could ever go to the 'fest. I won't have the time to go again for many years.
As for safety, self policing is about the only way on a hot line. All the folks must watch the others around them. You'll never escape the idiots and unsafe acts. Some way must be found to empower people to stop unsafe shooters. I know public speaking is tough but the shooters meeting must be more formalized and really shouldn't be "off the cuff". Possibly a red tape half way up the hill with the promise of being ejected from the shoot if someone sees you shoot beyond the tape. With size comes additional variables. The people you know are responsible shooters fade into a growing crowd. The volume of fire increases as the machine gunners bring more ammo. Excited newbies overwhelmed with the excitement of the event loose concentration as the brass rains down on their heads, ( Great idea on the orange barrier fencing put up to stop brass flying onto the next position! Those guys who did that have my highest respect. For $15 or $20 they proved to me they were the most thoughtful and courteous shooters on the line. ) Just poorly formed ideas from me, I'm afraid. I'm not meaning to be critical of anyones behavior or actions. These are just my observations and some speculations based on my experience. As such they are subjective and may not reflect others perceptions.
Link Posted: 7/1/2003 7:49:10 AM EDT
Great news Campy!

The only problem is if an IQ test is required. I doubt I'll pass the test unless i'm allowed some sort of "handicap".

Link Posted: 7/1/2003 10:15:18 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/1/2003 12:10:25 PM EDT
1. Pre-registration of shelter/canopy (min./max. square footage) with a maximum number of canopies on the firing line. If there are more canopies than space, split the event into morning/evening sessions - OR run a second day.

2. Maximum number of numbered shooting positions per canopy. Maximum number of people under a line canopy at a time.

3. Fixed number of canopies an RSO must watch. Too many shooting positions per RSO will make it harder to observe. Fixing the number of canopies/number of firing positions will determine number of required RSOs. Have fixed observation RSO's and roving RSOs to observe behind the firing line.

4. In the same vein of the red tape across the backstop, forward trajectory containment structure of a temporary nature (canvas covered pole frame?). This could be placed at a distance in advance of the firing line to be shot between to a maximum radius that will not exceed 3/4ths height of the backstop and eliminate extreme cross shooting. These can be inspected at each ceasefire for height penetration.

5. More frequent ceasefires. 1 hour hot, 15 minutes cold?

6. Advance fire fighting training for RSOs.

7. Stronger liability waver language - signoff on understanding safe handling of firearms, basic range procedures, specific event rules, etc...

8. I am going to borrow a philosophy from the bar business. If you want to get rid of riff raff, raise your price. It's worth it so much to us, Tweet and I would pay $50 each to come to Bulletfest. Think about that for a minute (hopefully with a calculator in hand).

9. Quality control checklist of the facility, grounds, firing line, etc... Detailed lists of every fine, minute item to be checked off on each and every detail from parking to teardown.

10. A badass enforcement officer who isn't afraid to stop the line, walk up to a guy, and tell him to pack his shit up and go in front of 1,000 people. You break the rules, you get your ass kicked out.

11. Agree on the designated 'newbie' areas. One problem I saw with a lot (not all) of the MG rentals was a guy handing a loaded weapon to someone without any runthrough, orientation, etc... I know that's somewhat their responsibility, but they can't let the $$$ override a sense of responsibility to provide some orientation to obviously novice shooters. There has to be a commitment to bringing new people into the program, and that takes a commitment to maintaining a safe venue.

We thought of some more too, I just can't remember all of the items. I will post them as I remember them.
Link Posted: 7/1/2003 12:49:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/1/2003 12:56:23 PM EDT by SLoV]
AWESOME CAMPYBOB... that is GREAT news.

If you think it would be ok please post Snode's mailing address I would like to send them a thank you card also for letting us use their farm. my friend and I had such a great time. That really is a nice farm and nice area around there with great people

thanks

and I can't thank you enough bob for all the work you did and how selfless you were in putting on Bulletfest for everyone else. Your a great man with a great truck!
Link Posted: 7/1/2003 1:12:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/1/2003 1:13:34 PM EDT by Aimless]
Link Posted: 7/1/2003 1:28:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Aimless:


Maybe all machinegunners is the answer.



You mean cut off the event to everyone who doesn't have a machinegun? I think thats a terrible idea. Many people there (including myself) only had semi-autos. All the semi-auto guys I saw were very serious about safety and had a great time. I think this would be really unfair and take away a lot from Bulletfest.
Link Posted: 7/1/2003 1:29:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB:
we re-evaluated the satellite pics and topographical maps.

the range is completely safe



I thought the range looked pretty good also. Its going to be hard to find anyplace besides the desert where you can be moron proof. Anywhere you go some dumbass could start launching roudns into the air and at the right angle they could travel 5 miles or more probably.

I'd like to see those maps and satty photos are they online?
Link Posted: 7/1/2003 1:41:24 PM EDT
My two cents:

A loud speaker or strobe system to alert the line to a cease fire.

Keep the format you have including pricing. Add additional RO's.

Surveillance cameras to keep people honest.
Link Posted: 7/1/2003 1:58:57 PM EDT
CAMPYBOB,
It was a pleasure to meet you and your wife. She must really like you a lot to go through four BulletFests!

And as for the Snodes... what great and gracious people. There is no substitute for home style hospitality (or cooking).

I am very pleased that there will be a BF-5 next year and I am looking forward to going - if I am one of the lucky ones that can pass the IQ test!

Also, since I've been to most of the bigger shoots at least a few times (Knob Creek, Hiram Maxim, North Country, Dry Creek/SP Crater ) I want to say that the ARFCOM guys that I met at BulletFest were some of the very best around.

Be safe, shoot straight, and I'll see you on the range.

Mario
FAMO,Inc.
Link Posted: 7/1/2003 2:01:57 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/1/2003 2:21:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/1/2003 2:22:52 PM EDT by TomJefferson]
Though a little on the short end of the stick like mg34 due to distance/time, I actually found the small bit of mayhem exciting especially the shear numbers of folks on the line at one time. WOW.

I know with that many people there are bound to be some yahoos but I can't tell you of an event I've been to in decades that had so many fine people in one spot. I didn't see any fights or even heated arguments and you can see that at the supermarket. I couldn't have been happier with the class of people on a whole. Hell about the most criminal hippie looking one of the bunch was right beside me and one hell of a guy.

Outstanding event and something you should really be proud of Campy.

Other than extending the range for more people and stressing self policing, I wouldn't change a thing. Well, other than me showing up earlier if possible.

Tj
Link Posted: 7/1/2003 3:37:53 PM EDT

sadly, i may be forced to go to an all-machinegun format.


Looks like it is time for me to get off the wallet I think I see a Reising 50 in my future.
Link Posted: 7/1/2003 4:55:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB:

sadly, i may be forced to go to an all-machinegun format. i know that i can easily get 400 machinegunners to attend a 2-day event. i really don't want to do that...i'm still working thru some ideas that others have suggested to me.







That would be terrible. I remember a month or so back when i asked you if it would be ok if my friend and I came with semi-autos and you said "The great thing about it is a lot of the group is compromised of semi-auto guys" and that we were more than welcome to come...

I hope it doesn't come to this. if it does just make sure you rename it -Only for those who can afford machineguns Bulletfest V-
Link Posted: 7/1/2003 5:44:01 PM EDT
Campy,
- Just thinking out loud here.-
400 machinegunners would be what, about half the line? Ok, you got a machine gun yer in! all others would register for morning shoot / afternoon shoot semi auto positions on the line. Breaking it up MIGHT double the number of shooters that can rotate into the line at the lunch time break.'Course there's always cheatin goin on. I'd hate to see it go full auto, but it's your show!

Bulletfest was the best time I've ever had with my clothes on! And thanks to Lumpy for allowing us to shoot out of his position.
Link Posted: 7/1/2003 5:47:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Smudge:
Campy,
- Just thinking out loud here.-
400 machinegunners would be what, about half the line? Ok, you got a machine gun yer in! all others would register for morning shoot / afternoon shoot semi auto positions on the line. Breaking it up MIGHT double the number of shooters that can rotate into the line at the lunch time break.'Course there's always cheatin goin on. I'd hate to see it go full auto, but it's your show!

Bulletfest was the best time I've ever had with my clothes on! And thanks to Lumpy for allowing us to shoot out of his position.



Smudge I met you at our last Grand River shoot. To bad I missed you at Bulletfest. mmsig229 is gonna plan another GR shoot soon. Keep an eye peeled. AND POST HERE MORE OFTEN
Link Posted: 7/1/2003 6:13:07 PM EDT
I was looking for your familiar faces, there were so many names there I'd like to put faces to.
Hay, I'm there for the next Grand River shoot ribbs & all.
- how's this for gettin the ol post count up?
Link Posted: 7/1/2003 10:57:33 PM EDT
Well since I was getting married that day I didn't get there on time and didn't get to stay after the lunch break. What Happened?

I was a little busy that morning but I finally got my best man and uncle out the door. We didn't get there untill about 9:55. We were the first car that was stopped and not allowed to go directly to the firing line (bad luck on an otherwise great day). MY suggestion here is to make sure the people at the gate are more up to date on whats happening. We were there for over twenty minutes before the line went hot. This wasn't a major deal just not something I was expecting. I was worried I wouldn't get to the line before lunch and I knew I had to leave early.

PLEASE don't make it full auto only. The whole point is poor guys like me with a AK and a few AR's can shoot next to some guy with a full auto .50, or a mini-gun.

I got to put a few rounds down range by asking some guys if I could shoot while they were reloading mags. But that firing line was packed. The guys I brought only had military experience in full autos, and they couldn't believe how close and packed the line was. I definetly think a 2-day, morning/afternoon shoot would help here. And someone like me probably wouldn't even need 3 hours to do as much shooting as I wanted to do. But how often do you get to shoot at cars, and all that great stuff.

I think there is definetly a need for more and more agresive ROs. I was standing right behind a RO and very near a rental place. I saw some activity that I didn't think was totally safe from both the rental place and others. One very petite woman attempted to control a M16 and the barrel never came below a 5 Degree angle and was climbing to 30 degrees or more during firing. She never even put her cheek on the stock to aim the weapon she just pointed it generally dow range. I don't think the RO wanted to mess with anyone's business (there was a guy standing right next to her) or having fun. More ROs that aren't cocky but are definetly keeping it safe, on a less crowded firing line would make it much easier to find people who weren't following the rules. If the rulebreakers are shooting over the backstop on a hill like that, then THEY alone should be responsible for the bullets they fire.

It was nice to finally meet Campy, and I hope this shoot goes on in the future in at least some of the same style it now has. Hopefully next year I'll finally get to camp out with all the guys, and meet some of the people I talk to on the internet.

All hail Campy, and long live bulletfest.
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 4:53:53 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 5:08:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/2/2003 5:09:50 AM EDT by RotDorn]
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 5:38:18 AM EDT
My $.02 ...

1. More RSO's - lots more. Seemed like those 10' pop-up tents were the markers for each shooting position. Have one RSO per two or three positions. Give them free entrance, maybe a free lunch and/or pay them if you have to.

2. More air horns. Every RSO should be armed with an air horn. When one horn goes off, they should all join in to get the line shut down ASAP and get the shooters off their triggers.

3. Pre-registration. So you know who is at each particular line position and can track down and single out an idiot if necessary. Maybe limited registration for a certain number of line positions - once those line positions are sold, its a 'sold-out' event.

4. Raise the fee to $20. Still inexpensive and quite affordable, but enough to cover the expense associated with more air horns and more RSO's.

5. Don't emiminate the semi-only shooters. This should be an event where they can come to try new guns (maybe in anticipation of eventually getting into C3), and/or just experience it if they can't afford a full auto or get a signoff.
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 7:03:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By RotDorn:
Bob,

What if.....

1. To address the problem of the line. Make the charge for a line spot somthing like $100(per 10ft wide spot), and the charge for 2nd& 3rd tier spots like $10. That way you have less people on the line, and people can link their tents together depth wise for socializing. Making sure that people are using their line time to the fullest. People would go in together bringing the cost down, but limiting the number on the line.

there that is my .02



This is a good idea. I joined up with 6 other people I had never met before. We just kind of grouped together, and set up well behind the line taking turns going up to the line until the lunch break. After the break, a spot on the line opened up and we moved my canopy and all our gear up to that spot in the line. We took turns and had no problems at all.

As far as the cease fires, I noticed the smoke from the burning cars and had an idea. Smoke grenades, smoke bombs or some type of smoke devices that can be thrown out in the field and produce a specific color. Everyone stop when you see that color smoke. Audible commands will never be heard by the people currently firing or those immediately next to them, but smoke will be seen, and allow those next to them to notify the shooter to stop(By smacking them on the head if necessary).
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 7:56:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Smudge:
I was looking for your familiar faces, there were so many names there I'd like to put faces to.
Hay, I'm there for the next Grand River shoot ribbs & all.
- how's this for gettin the ol post count up?


Sounds good. I'll see when mmsig229 wants to set up another get together
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 3:18:17 PM EDT
Thanks Campy Bob for a great event, this was my first time there and hopefully I can be there for more events in the future.
The one thing that needs to be fixed is the time it took to shut down the line, a few time it took what seemed like minutes to get it done. I look forward to another Bulletfest. Howard

The guys in the Hosrse trailer with the MG-42 and M-60 at center court
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 4:29:12 PM EDT
but, like ben said, raising the price to shoot will get rid of some of the morons.

I think it would help.

Maybe all machinegunners is the answer.

i hope not to have to go this route, but 90% of my problems come from the semi-shooters (of which 95% are safe shooters. it's just that one or two morons that i need to get rid of...but how?).


Divide the rage into semi and full auto areas in a 20% 80% ratio. Keep the Semi Auto guys closer to the beginning of the firing line. Increase R.O.'s (I will volunteer and I think my brother is available also).

still, my first obligation is to provide safety to all...the neighbors, the shooters and the spectators.

Maintain a zero tolerance policy with this section. When in doubt, kick'em out.

tom, i will, if anything, shorten up the range width and have less people on the line at any given time.

Stake the area out and keep the lanes tight. An elevated platform at either end would help also.
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 5:29:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/2/2003 5:30:05 PM EDT by HeavyMetal]
I have done range safety work for uncle sugar many times. I would pull RS detail for a day if BFV goes 2 days or 1/2 day for one.....provided I can whack the slackers and goof ups over the head with a range rod!!

That'l teach em' to bring their K-Pots to BF VI!

Dont punish the semi only crowd! At least we werent lighting the place up with APIT!
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 6:44:05 PM EDT
So what were some of us semi-auto shooters doing, besides the CHANCE that it was a semi shooter that shot the round over the berm?
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 7:17:21 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 7:58:19 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 3:04:03 AM EDT
Just curious guys, I left before the problem. What exactly happened and what caliber was the round???

I can tell you that on the far end of the line, I didn't see anyone shooting hollow points and I talked to all of them. In fact, while I was there the semi's never fired more than aimed three round bursts and no hip firing. The distance to target was a bit far for hip firing unless you just wanted to hear your gun go pop pop. There were no hand guns down our way either.

I did see a bit of bump firing AKs in the middle of the line and even saw a couple scoped ARs taking careful aim. Could this have been a bump fire, whoops?

In a three sided valley close in, I can see bump firing but in open terrain, it really is not a safe practice and was a bit surprised it was allowed at all.

Tj
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 3:49:19 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 4:26:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/3/2003 4:28:19 AM EDT by CAMPYBOB]
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 6:15:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB:
i have receieved reports of two younger shooters that were bump firing with little control.



That was probably me and my 15-year-old brother. I'm no slouch at bump-firing - none of my rounds hit where I didn't want them to. I let my brother try three rounds at a time. He had less control, but I watched carefully, and none of the rounds even went halfway up the hill. He only tried it about three times (about ten rounds) and decided to stop. He mostly fired the shots singly anyway.

FYI, we were using FMJ, not HP.
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 10:40:21 AM EDT
I'm happy there will even BE a Bulletfest V! Having it at Snode's again makes it all the better.

Given a year to search, and given the wide variety of people we have here, SOMEONE should be able to come up with a very loud siren that could be placed in the middle of the line, alerting RO's with horns to blast away. More horns and more RO's goes without saying. Visual indicators such as strobes or smoke grenades might be worth looking at. I like the video camera idea too.

Also, how about getting one of those pool water trucks to attend, or some other large mobile water tanker with the ability to hose fires (since the local FD couldn't be on site).

I plan to get there a day earlier next year to help with setup, etc.. I'll volunteer for some RO time too.

If you build it, they will come.....
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 11:50:28 AM EDT
Like I said, I will volunteer to be a RSO next go around.

Suggestion:

RSO, as comp, get to shoot a full day instead of half if they do range safety work the other day.

Rest assured, I WILL throw someone off the line if they deserve it as I have done so in the past.
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 11:52:54 AM EDT
...and Rots idea about the FRS radios is genius. Everyone should have one already and if not, cheap ones can be had for next to nuthin'.
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 2:19:17 PM EDT
Campy,

First thanks for your answer to my question but the rest of the rant came a bit off like you were personally slamming me. The fact is I always police the firing line even if it's an NRA managed range for I have personally seen more times than I care what a round will do to flesh and blood. I did make your safety speech and stayed to the end thus ended up at the end of the line. As I said, I did not see anything amiss on the far end during my time there. While walking back behind the line to the vendor area I saw two guys bump firing an AK both were adults and the barrels were held down and the rounds appeared to be hitting in the target area.

I'm sorry there was a Jackass that ended the fun sooner than planned but not all of us were Jackasses.

Thanks again for all your efforts and try not to let one asshole spoil all the fun you brought to so many. What you have accomplished is unique and should be a great source of pride and joy.

Tj
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 4:34:09 PM EDT
My buddy and I were bump firing but it was with my SAR2 and AR. We were putting em all in the appliances.
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 5:45:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/3/2003 8:43:23 PM EDT by dadman]
All this point-counterpoint, slamming, etc., is making Bulletfest look like Inbredfest. The whole event needs to be looked at and reevaluated from the top down. Calling people morons or having IQ tests isn't helping.
Some good ideas and solutions have been brought up. Let them be be fine tuned for BF V, and hopefully VI, VII, VIII....

May have been mentioned already:

Have a check list for the following and don't stray from it.

1 dedicated RSO for each 10-15ft of firing line.

Get RSO's in advance and instruct them in a special meeting the night before or morning of shoot. Don't wait till day of shoot to get them.

Shrink the line a bit.

Have 1/2 hour periods of shooting. To allow weapon cooldown and personel roatation at line.

Give shooters assigned cards/stamps, or wrist straps for whatever 10-15ft. area they're assigned for. Take away card/stamp/strap after 2nd(?) violation.

Box in each shooting area with some type of fencing/border, have a rear entry for each shooting section, and make it the RSO responsibilty to insure who's in and out and rotating on the line.

RSO's to be dedicated to observing, not shooting or helping shoot.

More thourough cease fire. One blast to stop, RSO's insure their section stopped, and insure chambers emty and mags and belts removed. Each RSO reports in that their section clear.

Have firearms cleared and checked before personel sent downrange for any reason.

Absolutely no one allowed downrange, except RSO's and range maintenance personel. After they return from downrange, do a thorough behind target check. Make sure no one is left behind.

No bump firing.

Make pre-shoot breifing for shooters clearer and plainer. No if's. Either do or don't.

I'll volunteer as a RSO if you want for next year.
Link Posted: 7/4/2003 4:06:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/4/2003 4:07:42 PM EDT by notso]
CampyBob, I hope to come next year, where is the Snodes' farm?

If I come, I have no problem volunteering to RO (though me being 18 might cause some trouble on authority, though I am kinda big )

I would love to come if the drive isnt too bad and my parents consent ( I still live at home during college)

PS- Please dont kick out us SA shooters, this sounds like fun
Link Posted: 7/10/2003 12:55:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/10/2003 1:08:03 AM EDT by Dragracer_Art]
Ya know...

A REAL simple solution to the "Bullet over the berm" mess ?

NO BUMPFIRING OR SHOOTING FROM THE HIP.

PERIOD !

If you are seen shooting un-aimed fire or from the hip, you will be removed from the event.

I don't see how a rule like this would create a problem.
Anyone that owns MG's doesn't shoot the dang things from the hip anyway...
Bumpfiring is fun, but not at the risk of sending a round over the berm.
Bumpfiring is best done inside 50 yards in my opinion. 100 yards is pushing it.

A rule like this would affect a very narrow, and focused group of people.

Just what you're trying to do right ?
Link Posted: 7/10/2003 3:35:01 AM EDT
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