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Posted: 5/22/2003 6:50:38 PM EDT
US imposes new sanctions on China


By Guy Dinmore in Washington
Published: May 22 2003 23:34 | Last Updated: May 23 2003 0:40

The US on Thursday accused China of failing to enforce a weapons proliferation agreement, and imposed tough sanctions on Norinco, one of China's biggest and most prestigious state-owned conglomerates, for supplying missile technology to Iran.

Analysts in Washington said the targeting of the North China Industries Corporation - a key supplier to Wal-Mart of the US - and of all of its subsidiaries would shake US-China relations. It comes just days before President George W. Bush is due to meet Hu Jintao, China's new president, in Russia on May 31.

US officials said the sanctions bar all exports by Norinco and its subsidiaries to the US, estimated at over $100m last year. The measures also bar any contracts between US government agencies and the Beijing-based company, which has close ties to the Chinese leadership.

Norinco's exports to the US range from teddy bears to hunting rifles. Through a web of subsidiaries, it also sells chemicals, construction materials and optical goods. Norinco said its import and export trade has exceeded $25bn since 1980.

A US official expressed frustration that China had not properly implemented new regulations it announced last August, during a visit to Beijing by Richard Armitage, deputy secretary of state. Those agreements tightened export controls on weapon and military technology.

They were the outcome of an agreement reached with the US in November 2000, under which the US decided to waive sanctions in return for a commitment by China "to stop its proliferation behaviour", the US official said.

The regulations contributed to a successful visit last year by Jiang Zemin, then Chinese president, to Mr Bush's Texas ranch.

The Iranian company identified as benefiting from China's weapons technology is the Shahid Hemmat Industrial Group, believed to be an arm of the Islamic republic's defence ministry. Shahid Hemmat was also placed under sanctions.

The US has previously imposed sanctions on Chinese entities suspected of involvement in weapons proliferation, but a US official said Norinco was the largest ever targeted. Richard Bush, a China analyst at the Brookings Institution, said it was likely that China would deliver a "robust response" but would not endanger its improving relationship with the US over the issue.

Officials at the Chinese embassy in Washington did not return calls.

China provided Iran with missiles during its 1980-88 war with Iraq. But US concerns have been heightened by the recent disclosure that Iran's nuclear programme was more advanced than previously thought.
Link Posted: 5/22/2003 7:02:19 PM EDT
Mother fuck! There goes my chance to get a norinco shotgun.....cheap.
Link Posted: 5/22/2003 7:05:31 PM EDT
I feel really bad about not being able to contribute to Chinese Communist state run arms manufacturers. I was really looking foward to the Tienamen Square Commemeratives...
Link Posted: 5/22/2003 7:13:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
I feel really bad about not being able to contribute to Chinese Communist state run arms manufacturers. I was really looking foward to the Tienamen Square Commemeratives...



Link Posted: 5/22/2003 7:20:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/22/2003 10:08:08 PM EDT by themao]
Shit. Since when does the State Dept give a damn about arms proliferation? They sure as hell don't give a damn about Indonesia, IRAQ (we supplied Saddam too), Iran (before Khomeni), and the list goes on.

If they're going to do this, we should at least be able to import Galils and surplus Uzis from Israel dammit. They need the money to "relocate" Palestinians.

Edited due to board code violation to stay in accordance with proper political terminology.
Link Posted: 5/22/2003 7:53:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/23/2003 5:53:55 AM EDT by hbarski]

Originally Posted By themao:

They need the money to relocate Palestinians off anyway.




Actually the US taxpayer sends more than enough billions to pay the Israelis to kill Palestinians.

{I hate pc crap....hbarski}
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 3:30:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/23/2003 6:07:34 PM EDT by CAMPYBOB]
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 1:49:10 PM EDT
China and Norinco need to get their hands slapped. This is it. Other than the Trench '97s, little else of consequence was coming in. The big loser is WalMart....their buy American stance anymore means stocking their stores with Chinese products.

In many ways, I'm not sure that we shouldn't just put the clamps on China and embargo the entire country.

This for once isn't a firearms issue. But, we still might need to play footsie with the ChiComs because of the North Korean Idiot.

Wish I could have gotten a '97, though. The shotgun doesn't know its sad heritage.
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 2:11:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/23/2003 2:14:42 PM EDT by Iriqoise]
There's more demand for arms and missle tech from the worlds' hotspots. The Koreans and the Chinese are going to create one hell of a war! They're nothing but a bunch of little goose stepping
free trader troublemakers!
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 10:23:08 PM EDT
Man .. When I was in Tanzania and Zambia (Africa) .. We were tired of buying "Crapi'o'la" quality stuff imported from China. They build a railway line for Zambia from Tanzania in exchange for buying their stuff .. Man, you should taste some of their Candy or Choclate, I swear it was made from Panda doo, ... Long gone were the Days you could enjoy English Candy and the good stuff from Germany and Europe.

So .. When I settled here, .. I would not buy anything from China .. Well, until I felt and shot the Preban AKs Semi/Auto from Polytech ..

Well, now its history because we get everything Cash Good made in there .... But big difference .. The stuff you get from there here ....They are a Million times better in quality than anything I saw abroad! I guess American Company sent materials from here .. and I think the Guns from there that come here are made in better quality than maybe if sold elsewhere .. Just like the Japanese Cars we bought over there were of poor Quality then the ones over here .. Competion has its ways to make things better and cheaper ....

Don't worry ... They will find a way to get their stuff in here .. maybe not under the name of Norinco .. How about say .. Panda Industries .. A state owned ... well super secret ... changed name .. well, all owners over there look the same kinda thing .. we won't know the difference ..

You wana call it China-American-Canal Co.. Okay ...We make ...
Link Posted: 5/24/2003 12:29:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/24/2003 12:30:24 AM EDT by themao]
Don't kid yourself guys. This crap is sabre rattling and a classic State Department wank-off festival. They probably want something out of this from the Chinese, and it'll go away.

Norinco is a HUGE company, which is made up of dozens of former state run firms (although in a way, everything is "state" influenced in China, much like in our own f#$ked up country). Combine them with the shipping prowess of Hutchinson Whampoa out of Shanghai and Hong Kong, and there's no way the State Dept and Customs could even track was comes in and out of America made by Norinco, except maybe guns. Your pair of Nike shoes or new DVD player though, will not be on their hit list.

I suspect America's pissed at China for two reasons:

1. America's paranoid about the dollar right now due to currency devaluation. The Euro is picking up steam due to our escapades in the Middle East and lower consumer confidence in the federal government's "reputation" and ability to pay off its debts. Fiat currency SUCKS in short order, and it just so happens that China backs its own currency to the tune of 90% with American dollars. If they unloaded and switched to the Euro, WE WOULD BE HURTING. I doubt something that drastic would occur though, but as long as the Fed keeps lowering interest rates and keeps expanding the money supply faster than Hillary Clinton's ass grows, we're going to be in a crap hole for a long time swimming in debt due to the contiuation of bad investments.

2. Perhaps Bush wants China to crack down on Mao's own home boy Kim in N. Korea. I think Bush might jump out of there, but want to keep a wall around the North. Heheheh, I'm waiting for the western media to trumpet "access" into that Stalinist state within the next ten years, as NEC or Sony opens up their first DVD player manufacturing facility using Pyongyang slave labor, much like China did back in the 1980s.

3. It's no secret that American telecom firms are POed that China has not opened up their cell phone and fiber optics markets as much as they should. The government tightly controls it for political and strategic reasons, and it will not allow AT&T to run their own lines and profit 100% off of them in China. Rupert Murdoch himself had to blow Jiang Zemin and all his cadre buddies to get a half-ass media deal there in China. Point is, don't be surprised if someone with connections to GWB's administration got f#$ked in some multi-million $$$ deal, and now wants revenge or perhaps even American firms are bitching about something Norinco does that competes directly with their interests. Washington's full of lobbyists you know.

I got a buddy who left back to Taiwan, and he told me about all the shit they're setting up on the main land in China. SARS and dirty Chinese people aside, the government seems to pretty much leave you alone as long as you pay your rather meager taxes on time and follow most of their rules. Hong Kong is still one of the top three places to do business, and Shanghai is closing in. In China, you don't have to worry about lawyers trying to sue you for millions. That's a big factor with their growth right now, and it'll keep continuing for awhile. Chinese culture is amiable to that sheeple Confucius idealogy of follow your govt's orders and work in the fields. Liberty be damn folks. We're not dealing with Campybob, RotDorn or Obe916 from Ohio and TN. We're dealing with people whom for the last 2000 years lived under emperors and govt. bureuacrats not too different from today. These folks created the concept of a massive central govt. I don't view them as a "threat" because of that, since they can only keep up with "capitalism" brought forth by the west, not surpass us. It's hard to be an innovator in a society where from day one the state tries to control and manipulate almost every aspect of your life. I fear that Europe and America is becoming the same way though (europe definitely is, America is almost there). This will not be good for us in the long run, and whatever capitalism is left in this country will be doomed to this bullshit regulated pseudo capitalism or a purely run bureaucratic-manager economy straight out of Brave New World. We'll end up going no where, with lots of sex, soma (Zoloft, Prozac) and alcohol for all!!!!

Now you know why I love GWB and my govt. so much!!!!

Enough rant. I didn't drink enough tonight I guess
Link Posted: 5/24/2003 4:38:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By themao:
Shit. Since when does the State Dept give a damn about arms proliferation? They sure as hell don't give a damn about Indonesia, IRAQ (we supplied Saddam too), Iran (before Khomeni), and the list goes on.


Don't forget our pal Manual Noriega of Panama?

Where is Wal-Mart, Home Depot, and the various toy companies going to get their merchandise. This is really going to hurt, especially our Christmas because they should start producing that stuff now, in order for it to arrive in time. Ahhh... the joys of capitalism, buying merchandise for pennies and selling them for dollars even after the shipping.

The Red Chinese need the USA dollars and they will do whatever it takes for now to achieve that goal. But wait until later when the Communist China don't need the yankee greenback.
Link Posted: 5/24/2003 6:30:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By warlord:
Don't forget our pal Manual Noriega of Panama?



That had more to do with control than money. They were POed at him since he outlived his useful life down there. It's ironic actually. Had we kept in Noreiga in power, the Panamanian government would have never had these Marxist-socialist politicians sell the locks of the canal to the Chinese (Hutchinson Whampoa). Manual would have followed orders from D.C. and renigged on the transfer of the canal to the Panamanian government.

Where is Wal-Mart, Home Depot, and the various toy companies going to get their merchandise. This is really going to hurt, especially our Christmas because they should start producing that stuff now, in order for it to arrive in time. Ahhh... the joys of capitalism, buying merchandise for pennies and selling them for dollars even after the shipping.

The Red Chinese need the USA dollars and they will do whatever it takes for now to achieve that goal. But wait until later when the Communist China don't need the yankee greenback.
Link Posted: 5/24/2003 6:38:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By warlord:
Don't forget our pal Manual Noriega of Panama?



That had more to do with control than money. They were POed at him since he outlived his useful life down there. It's ironic actually. Had we kept in Noreiga in power, the Panamanian government would have never had these Marxist-socialist politicians sell the locks of the canal to the Chinese (Hutchinson Whampoa). Manual would have followed orders from D.C. and renigged on the transfer of the canal to the Panamanian government.


Where is Wal-Mart, Home Depot, and the various toy companies going to get their merchandise. This is really going to hurt, especially our Christmas because they should start producing that stuff now, in order for it to arrive in time. Ahhh... the joys of capitalism, buying merchandise for pennies and selling them for dollars even after the shipping.


There's nothing wrong with that. That's a good thing, because it frees of labor to do more important and advance stuff. A lot of manufacturing got shipped to Asia, but the distortion by the state comes in to play to regulate and tax industries who would otherwise be profitable in America.


The Red Chinese need the USA dollars and they will do whatever it takes for now to achieve that goal. But wait until later when the Communist China don't need the yankee greenback.


I disagree. China historically has never been an expansionist power, and they have always harassed countries only near their borders (excluding the Mongolians when the Khans controlled China). China has a LONG way to go before they catch us. 10% of the population is unemployed (100 million people), and the majority of the country is still dirt poor and uneducated. Even then, the government will only allow SO much growth as long as they can tax, regulate or control it. I doubt most of the infastructure will reach certain parts of the country side due to power struggles between the central government and various ethnic groups. The Muslim ?Ughirs? in the Xiajiang Province of W. China is a classic example. They'll never let those folks become "too rich", because they don't need more Osamas. China at best will end up a rich "kingdom" much like they were 1000 years ago. You'll have a peasant or "worker" class, you'll have a rich landlord or "corporate white collar" class, you'll have a bureaucratic class and you'll have an inner royal family "aka the Communist Potliburo". As I said, nothing has changed much in 2000 years of Chinese history. They got to be really advanced at one point, but their government and idealogy of pro-govt. sheepleness held them back.

If China lobs a nuke at us, it will be because we did everything possible to make it happen, not the other way around.
Link Posted: 5/25/2003 7:45:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By themao:

Where is Wal-Mart, Home Depot, and the various toy companies going to get their merchandise. This is really going to hurt, especially our Christmas because they should start producing that stuff now, in order for it to arrive in time. Ahhh... the joys of capitalism, buying merchandise for pennies and selling them for dollars even after the shipping.


There's nothing wrong with that. That's a good thing, because it frees of labor to do more important and advance stuff. A lot of manufacturing got shipped to Asia, but the distortion by the state comes in to play to regulate and tax industries who would otherwise be profitable in America.


The Red Chinese need the USA dollars and they will do whatever it takes for now to achieve that goal. But wait until later when the Communist China don't need the yankee greenback.


I disagree. China historically has never been an expansionist power, and they have always harassed countries only near their borders (excluding the Mongolians when the Khans controlled China). China has a LONG way to go before they catch us. 10% of the population is unemployed (100 million people), and the majority of the country is still dirt poor and uneducated. Even then, the government will only allow SO much growth as long as they can tax, regulate or control it. I doubt most of the infastructure will reach certain parts of the country side due to power struggles between the central government and various ethnic groups. The Muslim ?Ughirs? in the Xiajiang Province of W. China is a classic example. They'll never let those folks become "too rich", because they don't need more Osamas. China at best will end up a rich "kingdom" much like they were 1000 years ago. You'll have a peasant or "worker" class, you'll have a rich landlord or "corporate white collar" class, you'll have a bureaucratic class and you'll have an inner royal family "aka the Communist Potliburo". As I said, nothing has changed much in 2000 years of Chinese history. They got to be really advanced at one point, but their government and idealogy of pro-govt. sheepleness held them back.

If China lobs a nuke at us, it will be because we did everything possible to make it happen, not the other way around.



True, nothing wrong with buying low and selling high, but there a very long lead-time from the time the order is placed, and the time the merchanise is delivered to the USA docks. What happens if the merchandise is not delivered, and they have nothing to sell during the Christmas season the busiest part of the year(yeah I know commercialization, but thats life) where a lot of toy companies sell half of their yearly sales and probably make 2/3s of their yearly profits? Any little supply problem is magnified greatly since there is no way to line up other suppliers and/or re-order when the company guesses wrong and orders too little merchandise?

Good observation! I never thought about that.
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