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Posted: 5/20/2003 5:22:06 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/20/2003 5:30:15 PM EDT
FIGHT!!! FIGHT!!!!
dont let em take it. Go to your lawyer and raise holy hell. Don't give them a moment's peace. !!!!! WAR AGAINST THE BATFE!
Link Posted: 5/20/2003 5:34:40 PM EDT
I've read several threads on falfiles.com where the BATFE guys just want the upper receiver. Cut it off before you show them the kit, give them the receiver and all should be fine. Hopefully anyway...

There's a whole section on the other site about the kit fiasco, and it semms they are all from Interordnance.
Link Posted: 5/20/2003 5:36:32 PM EDT
You: " Umm. geeze guys, I sold that to some dude at a gun show, yup, about 6 months ago. No.. Just took the cash, no didn't get his name - sorry.. I don't own it anymore"
Link Posted: 5/20/2003 5:37:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By KenR_RedStarArms:
I never got to build it. sniff sniff......



That's probably for the best. Otherwise, we'd be reading about your assassination by armed tax agents instead of this post.
Link Posted: 5/20/2003 5:39:26 PM EDT
Can you just cut off the part they want demilled or can't they just demill the damn thing properly? DSA sells receivers, right?
Link Posted: 5/20/2003 5:43:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By xanadu:
You: " Umm. geeze guys, I sold that to some dude at a gun show, yup, about 6 months ago. No.. Just took the cash, no didn't get his name - sorry.. I don't own it anymore"



Lying to a federal agent is a felony. Best to say nothing at all. The Feds held one poor Arab sap who was staying at marriott at the WTC because they thought he had an aircraft band transeiver. They asked him if he had one, he said no. They arrested him for lying. Turns out he was telling the truth; some pilot from a few floors down admitted it was his.

If you speak to the FEDS all they have to do is accuse you of lying, its in your best interest not to speak to them. I personally would not surrender the kit. I would make them take it from my lawyer.
Link Posted: 5/20/2003 5:46:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By tktm: If you speak to the FEDS all they have to do is accuse you of lying, its in your best interest not to speak to them. I personally would not surrender the kit. I would make them take it from my lawyer.


Remember though, you can lie to the Feds about anything you want when you're Bill Clinton!
Link Posted: 5/20/2003 5:56:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By tktm:

Originally Posted By xanadu:
You: " Umm. geeze guys, I sold that to some dude at a gun show, yup, about 6 months ago. No.. Just took the cash, no didn't get his name - sorry.. I don't own it anymore"



Lying to a federal agent is a felony. Best to say nothing at all. The Feds held one poor Arab sap who was staying at marriott at the WTC because they thought he had an aircraft band transeiver. They asked him if he had one, he said no. They arrested him for lying. Turns out he was telling the truth; some pilot from a few floors down admitted it was his.

If you speak to the FEDS all they have to do is accuse you of lying, its in your best interest not to speak to them. I personally would not surrender the kit. I would make them take it from my lawyer.



WTF??? You can NOT be "arrested" for lying.

You CAN be arrested for violating a REAL law.
Link Posted: 5/20/2003 6:10:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DevilsAdvocate:


WTF??? You can NOT be "arrested" for lying.

You CAN be arrested for violating a REAL law.



You cannot be arrested for refusing to answer questions. Lying in the course of an investigation is obstruction and that is a real crime for which you most certainly can be arrested.
Link Posted: 5/20/2003 6:19:10 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/20/2003 6:41:49 PM EDT
Based on some discussion I saw on subguns.com I would insist on a "recepit of property" instead of the "abandonment" form they will try to hand you.

Bob

Link Posted: 5/20/2003 6:55:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By KenR_RedStarArms:
I have heard from my friends that there is a good chance I will get the parts back sans the upper receiver parts. That sounds fair to me.



Yeah, fair. In that they're not burning your house to the ground or shooting you in the middle of the night. I think that's "fair" in ATF lingo. Best of luck!
Link Posted: 5/20/2003 7:00:40 PM EDT
If you have a dog see if you can get him to take a leak on it before you turn it in.
Bringing America Towards Fascism
Link Posted: 5/20/2003 7:19:59 PM EDT
I always wondered how one could "improperly" demil a receiver--I mean the damn thing's had a torch put to it--it's in pieces--looks pretty damn well demilled to me...
Link Posted: 5/20/2003 7:29:11 PM EDT
Take off the receiver parts and 'sell' the rest to your son in law. Give them the receiver parts when they come for it.
Link Posted: 5/21/2003 4:16:44 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/21/2003 2:49:14 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/21/2003 3:16:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/21/2003 3:17:17 PM EDT by HeavyMetal]
Are you turning over the reciever parts or the whole kit??

Most people are only being required to turn the reciever parts.

There is a big sticky thread on this over at www.thefalfiles.com
Link Posted: 5/21/2003 3:20:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By KenR_RedStarArms:
Had a telephone interview with BATF today. He was from the K.C. office of compliance. I have agreed to surrender the parts kit to the BATF the week after Memorial day, this is a face to face transaction. I asked about compensation and the officer stated. "If the company you got the kit from is reputable you should get your money back." We shall see as I will contact the vendor. I did not get to see the letter to the customers that Camybob spoke of. Overall it went as well as I could of hoped for.


Thank you Campy, your information was correct as always.



Great. The ATF spends hundreds of hours trying to get a demilled gun to run with zip ties and duck tape, then won't reimburse you when they steal your private property. I love it.
Link Posted: 5/21/2003 5:25:25 PM EDT
If it were me I would beltsand the shit out of what is left of the recvr. Do your own demil.
Link Posted: 5/21/2003 9:23:42 PM EDT
only give them the center section

Link Posted: 5/22/2003 3:41:08 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/22/2003 7:56:50 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/22/2003 4:33:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB:
ken, i don't have my link to interord handy...but, if you go to their website you will find a link to their letter to the kit customers at the top/center of the main page.

also, there is a pdf file floating around that was issued by the technical branch of the atf that has color pictures and verbage describing the 'approved' methods of demil for the 1919 and fal receivers...cut method and cut location.

for the fal, the diagonal cuts must pass thru the bbl. mounting thread, mag well, upper to lower locking latch area, etc.

the destruction method and cut locations are VERY SPECIFIC. i have a feeling the interord kits were improperly demil'd.



Yes, but these new regulations were only put forth within the last couple of months. We are talking kits going back to before 2001 here...

Not saying that these weren't improperly demilled, but the standards back then weren't as stringent as the newly published documents.

Rocko
Link Posted: 5/26/2003 10:39:00 AM EDT
The receiver stub is easily removed with a dremel tool (or equivalent) in a matter of minutes. There's lots of info on falfiles on how to do it, or you could spin it off with a receiver wrench/barrel vise combo.

There is a lot of ambiguity amongst the people involved as to what's to be confiscated based upon the letter sent out to the offices. Some have reported the whole kit, some have reported only the receiver stub. If it were to happen to me, I'd bring in the receiver stub and sign a surrender form for it, and it alone, as it was the machine gun in the past. The receiver stub is at issue here because they improperly demilled it, you can read about theories why over at the fal board. Surrendering it to the feds is permanent, make sure you get paperwork.

Interordnance will most likely not refund you as they're busy in court with the lawsuits, but that's just my guess.

Best of luck with all this, this is just my two cents.
Link Posted: 5/27/2003 6:56:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/27/2003 6:58:37 AM EDT by Quarterbore]
Please give us an UPDATE!!!

The problem with the receiver comes fronm the definition of a Machine Gun... If the same person owns all of the pieces to make a rifle into a machinegun then all of the pieces would be subject to seizure....

NOTE HOWEVER, if your lower receiver was de-milled properly, the ATF has NO BASIS to request anything although I see no reason not to give them the stubs.

Now, if you show them a kit that is complete enough that they THINK they can make run.. you loose your whole kit... If you assist I/O with the demilling process with something like a cut-off wheel and perhaps a sledge hammer, there is no F-ing way the parts could be make back into a machine gun and the ATF can't take your LEGALY purchased kits!

I know that if I had an I/O Fal kit (which I don't) I would be removing the pieces that I need out of the center portion of the receiver and I would have that piece so distroyed that I will not need to worry about a visit from Big Brother.

Remember, the problem is if you have all the parts that the ATF can make into a working machine gun, you are screwed... Just halp with the de-milling process as they are your parts that you bought legally... it's just to bad I/O didn't do things a little diferently to prevent these problems.... if that was possible?

Here is a link to help anyone save the parts they need before smashing the center portion of the Fal upper receiver (registered part):
www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=75796
Link Posted: 5/27/2003 2:03:06 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/27/2003 7:24:47 PM EDT
If I didn't think bananadances were so gay, I would do one for you Ken! (And don't nobody else get no crazy ideas or i'll curse your dog like a mother!)

Yay!

There, close enuff!
Link Posted: 5/27/2003 10:15:12 PM EDT
Excellent news, I hope it follows through for you. Don't forget the receipt.

I see three options. One, you're like me and with ten other projects you can't find the time or money to assemble the kit. Two, you can buy the US parts and a nice gear logo receiver and make a legal, compliant rifle. Third, you can buy all the parts and wait and see if the ban goes away. If it does, then you can assemble the rifle with the regular combo device on the muzzle. Or, if (heaven forbid) an even worse law comes into being, then you can assemble the rifle before ban goes into effect.

Best of luck, that's good news at any rate.
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