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Posted: 4/27/2003 8:52:34 PM EDT
I've got a Romanian rifle with the standard markings that look as if they were put there by a chimp. I'd like to get the numbers and lettering restamped for a better finish. If this is possible/legal, do any AK smiths offer a service to restamp or refinish the numbering on the receiver for these rifles?
Link Posted: 4/28/2003 4:45:37 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/1/2003 11:04:37 PM EDT
CAMPYBOB:

That's not what I've been reading on the boards. It seems like the general consensus that the S/N can only be moved in rare cases w/gov't approval, like the S/N on the front strap of the older Browning HiPowers. There is no restriction on the importers mark that I'm aware of, BATF regs only talk about the S/N.

I found out much of this after posting my thread initially, so I apologize for sounding like I'm just answering my own question. I was just hoping to hear some more concrete info.
Link Posted: 5/2/2003 12:09:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/2/2003 12:36:36 AM EDT by WildWes]
You can " customize" your existing markings,(for example "highlighting" the scribblings with white, red or whatever color you wish)

But so far as I've read on the boards, alteration (changing, re-doing...) would be a violation of Federal law.

Sure, you could have a 'smith add some Cyrillic but to alter the existing mfg./ importer marks would be a "faux pas" (Please pardon my French..dammit, isn't "pardon" French too??... )

I'm no expert in this field, so proceed with the thread, but I do know ( ugly as they can be) that import markings aren't to be touched.

From what I've seen, things such as, for example, a Hesse 7.62 AK receiver can be retouched to indicate the proper caliber if you were to build a 5.45 or 5.56 rifle on it.(keep in mind these are American receivers, altering the marking to indicate the proper caliber is justified.>>

Keep in mind though that something of that nature isn't an imported firearm.

If your talking SAR, I wouldn't waste my time worrying about it's ugliness. They're among the ugliest AK's available anywhere in the world... (edit/ dicsclaimer...I own 2 SAR's, one is still in all it's ugly glory, the other was re-done fairly inexpensively. Both have crude engraving (that's almost a compliment...)

Regardless, they're plenty functional. I used some bake-on laquer on one, the other will get Alumihide or engine paint. Just depends on how the bake-on laquer holds up. So far, so good.
Link Posted: 5/2/2003 7:18:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Adventurer_96:
CAMPYBOB:

That's not what I've been reading on the boards. It seems like the general consensus that the S/N can only be moved in rare cases w/gov't approval, like the S/N on the front strap of the older Browning HiPowers. There is no restriction on the importers mark that I'm aware of, BATF regs only talk about the S/N.

I found out much of this after posting my thread initially, so I apologize for sounding like I'm just answering my own question. I was just hoping to hear some more concrete info.



a "general consensus" from a thread, about the legalities of certain things, is not a good, or smart way to come to any conclusion on the legal question....there are just too many shit house lawyers that think they know the law better then anyone alive...there are a shit load of laws, regulation convering firearms....and I bet somewhere in that mess there is something about importation markings.....and I bet it doesn't say, sure you can take those off....there is a reason they want those markings on the firearms, wheather it's a valid or stupid reason.
Link Posted: 5/11/2003 10:38:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/11/2003 10:53:06 AM EDT by sfcret]

Originally Posted By Adventurer_96:
CAMPYBOB:

There is no restriction on the importers mark that I'm aware of, BATF regs only talk about the S/N.

I found out much of this after posting my thread initially, so I apologize for sounding like I'm just answering my own question. I was just hoping to hear some more concrete info.




well I found the proof about ATF's stand on manufacturer’s stamp.....not a this not a general consensus,



Section 178.92 also requires licensed importers and manufacturers to conspicuously place the following identification markings on the frame, receiver, or barrel of each firearm imported or manufactured in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed:

1. The model, if such designation has been made;

2. The caliber or gauge;

3. The name (or recognized abbreviation of same) of the manufacturer and also, when applicable, of the importer;

4. In the case of a domestically made firearm, the city and State (or recognized abbreviation thereof) where the licensed manufacturer maintains its place of business; and

5. In the case of an imported firearm, the name of the country in which manufactured and the city and State (or recognized abbreviation thereof) where the importer maintains its place of business.






922(k) of the GCA makes it unlawful for any person to transport, ship, possess, or receive, in interstate or foreign commerce, any firearm that has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered.



enought said



http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/rules/notice877.htm

Link Posted: 5/12/2003 1:45:16 PM EDT
Per sfcret's post....

Possible legal interpretation...

"Section 178.92 also requires licensed importers and manufacturers to conspicuously place the following identification markings on the frame, receiver, or barrel of each firearm imported or manufactured in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed"

"922(k) of the GCA makes it unlawful for any person to transport, ship, possess, or receive, in interstate or foreign commerce, any firearm that has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered."

Removed, obliterated or altered would suggest changing the information of the original markings.

I see nothing in there that seems to say that having the existing information... exactly as it read from the manufacturer being re-appled in a more cosmeticaly pleasing mannor being illegal.

The spirit of the wording seems to inply that it's unlawful to actualy alter the information contained in the original markings.

Thoughts?
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 10:16:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/12/2003 10:29:34 PM EDT by chamberlin]
I am not a legislator or lawyer- that said....
It says cannot be 'removed' but it doesn't say 'moved'. I know many people who have
had a Class II gunsmith remove the chicken scratch by weldeding up and stoning it back smooth, with all manufacture's markings CLEARLY engraved on the bottom of the receiver...in a MUCH more legible scribe than that was ever on the original rifle. I am not sure, but I think one could use line #4 from the above regulations in the fact that a C2 could put his company name and city/state on the receiver, and now it is a -remanufactured firearm? Bottom line, like wushudude said, I think it is OK for the markings to be moved by a licensed Gunsmith as long as the moved information retains it's original syntax. If you were really a paranoid gunsmith, you could scribe in the new markings first, then delete the old markings, so that at no one time, the receiver was without it's identity.
BTW, Ohio Ordnance receivers are another canidate for the transfer of markings, as their ugly ass symbol is disliked by many.
-C
Link Posted: 5/13/2003 2:22:45 AM EDT
Having put a folder on a Hesse receiver,covering half the ser# in the process,I do want to believe that the # can,in an unaltered state, be reproduced.Otherwise I've got a piece of junk.

Has anyone seen a letter on this from BATF?
Link Posted: 5/14/2003 3:57:29 PM EDT
Sorry, you got junk.
Link Posted: 5/15/2003 3:00:17 AM EDT
Ah well, at least there's consistency.
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 6:48:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By wushudude:
Per sfcret's post....

Possible legal interpretation...

BLAH BLAH BLAH

I see nothing in there that seems to say that having the existing information... exactly as it read from the manufacturer being re-appled in a more cosmeticaly pleasing mannor being illegal.

The spirit of the wording seems to inply that it's unlawful to actualy alter the information contained in the original markings.

Thoughts?



I wasn't refering to any moving of information on the firearm, I was responding to Adventurer_96 statement "There is no restriction on the importers mark that I'm aware of., BATF regs only talk about the S/N
........I was just hoping to hear some more concrete info."

as for moving the info.....instead of everybody trying to guess, or getting a 'consenus" of it, if you really want to move that info, write the ATF and get it in writting about that.
Link Posted: 5/18/2003 9:13:22 PM EDT
SFCRET: That's exactly what I was looking for, and what I was able to find. Thank you very much for the link.

I believe the debate is over the wording, and whether or not refinishing the info is verboten, from what I can gather from the thread.

Here's a link, I hope it's ok to post a link to the FAL board. One major point is the fact that many importer's stamps are on barrels, which oftentimes are changed. Are you breaking the law then?
http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17443&highlight=refinishing+serial+number

Maybe I'll have to contact the ATF and find out. Or, maybe I'll just have to buy a nicer-finished rifle and forget about it!

Thanks for the replies.
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