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Posted: 9/10/2010 6:16:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/10/2010 6:17:29 PM EDT by FairlyLaidBack]
So, earlier this year, I picked up a 5.45 Saiga for a screamer of a deal and went about converting it with the proper number of Tapco parts and a swank sidefolder (I think it's Romanian but it could be Bulgarian, it's hard to keep some of this stuff straight)

Anyhow, it's in this configuration typically.


Today, I decided to see what sort of practical accuracy the carbine could get. This is by no means scientific, based on limitations of ammo, optic and mount.

The ammo used was the spam can Tula-manufactured 7n6 (I think), the sort you get from AIM surplus in the 1080rd cans for 135$ (at the time of purchase, around six months ago).

A affixed a ban-era ATI or Choate or whatever it was butthole stock my roommate had lying around so I could get a decent chinweld. Also affixed are a passable fixed-4x NCStar scope and a pretty damn chintzy UTG rail mount. Seriously that thing is godawful. Whatever.


I used my three-day ruck as a sandbag, laying prone in the dirt. I stuck a Shoot-n-c on a box and set it up at 25Y to sight in.


25Y sight in.

After I got sighted in, I moved the target out to 100Y, and that's where things started to break down.

Based on the POA/POI at 25Y, one would assume that shots aimed at the orange dot would impact the orange dot. Alas, they kept going way over the box. I'm not too fond of optics, especially borrowed optics and mounts. It took me a good dozen scope adjustments to even get on the paper. Even then, I had to aim with the fourth holdover tic on the top wire. I honestly don't know what the hell was up with that. Scopes are gay. It is however my intention to down the pipe get an Ultimak and throw on a Primary Arms Micro clone.


100Y string

After which, I pulled the lame optic off, swapped the butthole out for the normal wire sidefolder and did some shooting with irons.


First group. Around 2.5"


Second group, around 3".

This isn't scientific or emperical at all, but this is my simple observation.

What sort of groups are you getting with your 5.45s?

Personally, I'm so satisfied that I'm going to sell my AR.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 6:29:32 PM EDT
I've had nice results out of my TGI 74.

Link Posted: 9/10/2010 6:50:37 PM EDT
The three-four inch group at 100 yards is typical of what I got with iron sights on my Bulgy 74. I used several different types of ammo, bulgy, polish, russian milsurp and modern wolf.

Surprisingly, the wolf seemed to be the most accurate.

Not bad at all, imho

Link Posted: 9/10/2010 7:22:48 PM EDT
The results were ~ the same for all my 5.45 rifles. Tantal (17in), AK105 (12.5in), AKS74u (8.25in).

With a warm barrel 10 shot groups that avg ~ 3.25 inches @ 100 yards. 6-7 inches @ 200 yards. The shorter the barrel, the faster accuracy went to hell (heat).


Full 3" groups
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 7:37:36 PM EDT
"minute of bad guy" that will work for me.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 8:37:27 PM EDT
I'm getting around 3 or 3.5 with the irons on my SGL 31

5.45 has gotten me interested in AKs again
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 9:25:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Beamy:
I'm getting around 3 or 3.5 with the irons on my SGL 31

5.45 has gotten me interested in AKs again


I was done with AK's until I bit the bullet and got the 74. I only bought it because the S&W 5.45 upper was a turd and I had a bunch of 5.45 ammo already. I love my 74 and once I get a red dot on it I will do some AR vs. AK74 red dot vs. red dot accuracy tests going. I am going to have to skimp on the AK's red dot for now, but hopefully the PA micro will do ok for now. The AR is sporting a ML3...so it has the real deal.

I am expecting similar accuracy at 100 yards with non-magnified optics. I believe 5.56 will be more accurate out past 100 yards for sure, but I have a feeling 5.45 is plenty practical. Sorry, but I could never sell my AR's . It is just to easy to mount optics on an AR and to hard to mount them on an AK...
Link Posted: 9/11/2010 12:01:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SickMAK90:
Originally Posted By Beamy:
I'm getting around 3 or 3.5 with the irons on my SGL 31

5.45 has gotten me interested in AKs again


I was done with AK's until I bit the bullet and got the 74. I only bought it because the S&W 5.45 upper was a turd and I had a bunch of 5.45 ammo already. I love my 74 and once I get a red dot on it I will do some AR vs. AK74 red dot vs. red dot accuracy tests going. I am going to have to skimp on the AK's red dot for now, but hopefully the PA micro will do ok for now. The AR is sporting a ML3...so it has the real deal.

I am expecting similar accuracy at 100 yards with non-magnified optics. I believe 5.56 will be more accurate out past 100 yards for sure, but I have a feeling 5.45 is plenty practical. Sorry, but I could never sell my AR's . It is just to easy to mount optics on an AR and to hard to mount them on an AK...


It would be interesting to see an accuracy test between both calibers in an AK, and both in an AR just to see which ammunition is inherently more accurate. I would imagine they would both perform the same out of the same weapon, but am curious to know.
Link Posted: 9/11/2010 12:43:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/11/2010 12:43:49 AM EDT by Waveform]

Originally Posted By FairlyLaidBack:

Based on the POA/POI at 25Y, one would assume that shots aimed at the orange dot would impact the orange dot.

No, at 25 yards the bullet is still rising to meet the sight line. You want 1.5-2.5" low at 25 depending on your sight height for a 100 yard zero. I do the 25/250 zero so my shots are on the bullseye at 25

What sort of groups are you getting with your 5.45s?

At 200 yards, I get 4" from Barnaul 60 grain lead core, and 6" for the 7N6 steel core. Steel cores are hard to get centered in bullets, so they are never as accurate as lead core ammunition.

Link Posted: 9/11/2010 8:10:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Waveform:

Originally Posted By FairlyLaidBack:

Based on the POA/POI at 25Y, one would assume that shots aimed at the orange dot would impact the orange dot.

No, at 25 yards the bullet is still rising to meet the sight line. You want 1.5-2.5" low at 25 depending on your sight height for a 100 yard zero. I do the 25/250 zero so my shots are on the bullseye at 25

yup that's part of your problem right there. You should be shooting low at 25M.

Aside from that it looks like you may have a bit of vertical stringing going on in your last group which is breath control or shooting while breathing.
Link Posted: 9/11/2010 8:28:27 AM EDT
The wire folder is Romanian, Bulgaria never produced a wire fold like that.

I've seen the word "practical" used a few times in this thread, what is the definition from those using the term? Trying to figure out exactly what is trying to be conveyed.
Link Posted: 9/11/2010 10:12:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/11/2010 10:13:48 AM EDT by Hebrew_Battle_Rifle]
For me, practical accuracy means the ability to hit something that I can or may actually see in the real world. Soda cans @50 meters is a good gauge. If the rifle/ammo combination is capable of putting rounds into a soda can at 50 meters, then it will provide sufficient accuracy to defeat any real world threat that I may encounter or any real world prey animal that I need to consume.
Link Posted: 9/11/2010 10:23:43 AM EDT
Irons will always beat cheap optics on shaky mounts. You won't have wanderinz zero with irons. After hundreds of dollars and thousands of rounds I learned this the hard way. I literally have a drawer full of cheap optics and cheap mounts.

A rock solid mount for the AK would be an Ultimak. Put a good red dot on it and you are GTG.
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 8:37:42 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Hebrew_Battle_Rifle:
For me, practical accuracy means the ability to hit something that I can or may actually see in the real world. Soda cans @50 meters is a good gauge. If the rifle/ammo combination is capable of putting rounds into a soda can at 50 meters, then it will provide sufficient accuracy to defeat any real world threat that I may encounter or any real world prey animal that I need to consume.


+1

One of the best explanations I've come across.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 9:01:14 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Finslayer83:
Originally Posted By Hebrew_Battle_Rifle:
For me, practical accuracy means the ability to hit something that I can or may actually see in the real world. Soda cans @50 meters is a good gauge. If the rifle/ammo combination is capable of putting rounds into a soda can at 50 meters, then it will provide sufficient accuracy to defeat any real world threat that I may encounter or any real world prey animal that I need to consume.


+1

One of the best explanations I've come across.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


Except neither one of you used it previously in this thread, I am wanting to know what the people using the term in this thread are trying to say lol.
Link Posted: 9/13/2010 10:07:17 PM EDT
Since I'm OP, I was meaning "what sort of accuracy are you getting out of your 5.45 Saigas / AK74-clones?"

Also, this is just a "one box of ammo" test, not a "burn through a whole spamcan and show the results making sure to calculate variables like windspeed, ambient temperature, barrel temperature and barometric pressure" like the guys at other boards insist you do your range reports. I'm just curious what kind of accuracy normal dudes are getting from normal carbines firing normal ammo.

I can't speak for everybody else in the thread though.
Link Posted: 9/13/2010 10:10:29 PM EDT
Originally Posted By K1rodeoboater:

Originally Posted By Waveform:

Originally Posted By FairlyLaidBack:

Based on the POA/POI at 25Y, one would assume that shots aimed at the orange dot would impact the orange dot.

No, at 25 yards the bullet is still rising to meet the sight line. You want 1.5-2.5" low at 25 depending on your sight height for a 100 yard zero. I do the 25/250 zero so my shots are on the bullseye at 25

yup that's part of your problem right there. You should be shooting low at 25M.

Aside from that it looks like you may have a bit of vertical stringing going on in your last group which is breath control or shooting while breathing.

Ok, cool. Good to know. If/when I break down and buy a fixed-four PSOP-type scope, I'll keep this in mind.

The stringing probably comes from me trying to holdover on the hash marks and not remembering exactly if I'm holding over the third or fourth tick.

Link Posted: 9/14/2010 4:17:18 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 3:51:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FairlyLaidBack:
Since I'm OP, I was meaning "what sort of accuracy are you getting out of your 5.45 Saigas / AK74-clones?"

Also, this is just a "one box of ammo" test, not a "burn through a whole spamcan and show the results making sure to calculate variables like windspeed, ambient temperature, barrel temperature and barometric pressure" like the guys at other boards insist you do your range reports. I'm just curious what kind of accuracy normal dudes are getting from normal carbines firing normal ammo.

I can't speak for everybody else in the thread though.

My experience is that the lead core offerings from Barnaul (brown bear and silver bear) are the most accurate of the 5.45 rounds. I never got good results with the Dynamit Nobel either. The worst ammunition seems to be the "short" bullets from Bear, with the steel core surplus falling in the middle.
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 4:19:56 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Tomato_Thrower:
Irons will always beat cheap optics on shaky mounts. You won't have wanderinz zero with irons. After hundreds of dollars and thousands of rounds I learned this the hard way. I literally have a drawer full of cheap optics and cheap mounts.

A rock solid mount for the AK would be an Ultimak. Put a good red dot on it and you are GTG.



This is the truth . Not only for AK's. The number of times I have seen one of my fellow club members show up with a god awfull $39 wallmart 3X9 on those stupid "see thru" mounts screwed to the top of grandpaws 30-30 makes me crazy , You don't have to use some crazy $ 2K german glass on every rifle but be a bit realistic, if Wallmart or some slick gunshow guy is selling a scope for $40 it isn't going to work well-face the facts!

If your eyes are older than 45 nothing but a peep sight or decent glass (in a good mount) is going to be much of any good

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