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Posted: 1/14/2006 8:53:49 AM EDT
Whats the FPS on the 7.62x39! Years ago 89 I bout some Copper wash Steel core that was Hotter than hell! Thats the kind I want to know about! Came with stippers also!

Kinda want to compare the 6.8 SPC 110 gr. at little over 2600fps thats the NEW rage for AR15 owners!

I do own a AR, but I dont Claim its better than the AK!

Im thinking if the 7.62x39 went down in grs. Like 110 OTM
it would be like the 6.8?
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 3:15:53 PM EDT
from Remington ballistic page

http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/ballistics/comparative_ballistics_results.aspx?data=PRC68R4*R68R1*R68R2*RM68R1*L762391*R762391
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 2:46:04 PM EDT
I'm more of an AR guy than an AK guy, but I calls 'em like I sees em too, so here's my impression. The 6.8 has superior terminal performance as long as it's loaded with a round that fragments, and the 7.62x39 isn't. If you reverse that, then the 7.62x39 is a better stopper. Also the 6.8 shoots a little flatter because of a higher initial velocity. To sum it up, fragmentation is pretty much the only thing separating them in my mind, get a fragmenting 7.62x39 load and the only thing holding you back are those AK ergonomics .

Had to get in one little poke.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 8:29:51 AM EDT
6.8 SPC(115gr bullet) is a more supperior round than 7.63x39 (125gr bullet).

Trajectory:
out to 250 6.8 is better, it is much flatter than 7.62x39, than both start falling alot, but 6.8 is still much better
500 yards. 6.8spc has -53in where 7.62x39 has-92in

Anergy:
6.8 starts with 2000 ft/lbs and has 1300 at 200y, 1000 at 300y
7.62x39 starts with 1550 ft/lbs and has 900 at 200y, 650 at 300y.

7.62x39 with 110gr bullet wouldn't be any better, its only 10gr difference. It is a metter of the round, and powder used.

Goodluck.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 10:01:34 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/21/2006 11:50:00 AM EDT
Im talking puting a 90gr to 100gr OTM in the 7.62x39mm!

IM NOT TALKING THE PLAIN JANE 7.62 x39 122FMJ

Ill stick with the OLD 55grBTFMJ M193

SITE STAFF

9mm vs 45 YOU ARE RIGHT!

Im thinking if you load the 7.62x39 to a OTM lighter gr it would be pretty close to the 6.8

I remember the FBI needing a new Hand Gun Ammo!!

10mm TO HOT

10mm LITE

40S&W

THEY could saved with a 45acp loaded with a 180 grJHP!!

Dont fix unless broke.
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 8:39:23 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 8:55:30 AM EDT


Necking Down the 7.62x39

I will admit that 7.62 R. short is as good as it is.

I think a 80 to 100 gr or even 110gr. BTHP/OTM would bring it out some!
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 11:18:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/22/2006 11:18:32 AM EDT by Sidecarnutz]
I'm 5' 6" tall and have no neck. What's wrong with the ergonomics of an AK??!! I don't get it!


Link Posted: 1/22/2006 1:01:08 PM EDT
The hot loaded stuff you refer to is Chinese steel core coppwewashed 7.62x39mm. It was banned from importation and manufacture in 1994, when the 7.62x39mm was reclassified as a pistol round.

You can still buy and sell it as long as it was made and imported before 1994, as long as you are not an FFL (FFL holders cannot sell the ammunition to individuals). If you find some, I reccomend saving it. I have some saved up for myself.

The 7.62x39mm is never given fair representation. The ballistics of the 6.8 are tested out of 24" and 26" barrels, with match grade ammo. The ballistics of the 7.62x39mm are tested otut of 16" and 20" barrels, with bullets that are often the wrong diameter (Winchester and Remington 7.62x39mm ammo has .308" bullets, not .311" bullets, and the ammunition is not match quality).

If you want fragmenting 7.62x39mm rounds, try Saspan HP. This is the stuff made at Uly that is supposed to fragment very well. I have not tested it myself but supposedly it is very good.

If you had a 7.62x39mm load with a 105gr .311" bullet and a more aerodynamic shape, as well as some hotter burning powders- and tested it in an accurate rifle- it would show much, much better performance.

I do not see why being flat shooting is such a big deal. If you don't know how to adjust your rifle's sights, you have no place on a battlefield or even a paintball field. The Russian 9x39mm round performed excellently against the Chechnians, even though it has a rainbow trajectory.

Hey... want something flat shooting with an even higher velocity? Go to war with a .204 Ruger.
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 10:31:19 PM EDT
20" and 24" barrel testing for a 6.8" NNNNNNNTTTT wrong answer!! Maybe at Remington, but the 2600 fps is for a 16" barrel there bud. The velocity increases to about 2700-2800 out of longer than 20" barrels. It is a suprerior performer in most aspects. Remember that the 6.8 was designed to make the M16 series more lethal and still work with as minimal as possible mods to the weapon. It gives more range, and more accuracy to the shorter barrel assault rifle series and more lethality also.

Yes, the 7.62x39 is a decent killer and has respectable accuarcy to 300M, no question there. But the 6.8 has a flatter trajectory so it is easier to hit targets out to 500M, if you can shoot that far. It has the potential to be much more lethal than any existing 7.62x39, because the bullet yaws sooner and more reliably than a 7.62x39. It has a very good chance of fragmenting which increases lethal effects dramatically. But if both bulets punched straight through elastic tissue the 7.62x39 would be probably a better performer just because it makes a .311" hole vs. a 277" hole.

Why have none made better 7.62x39 bullets you ask? good question there-I dunno. But alot of this discussion is academic and looked at from the military point of view. The reality is if you as a civilian want a better round that expands or does whatever it just a matter of going to purchase or reload what you want. I have been using 130 gn. soft point 6.8s to dispatch wild boar with ease and at a respectable velocity still 100+ fps above the 7.62x39 and legal for use in Germany which the 7.62x39 is not legal for due to energy requirements.
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 8:08:28 AM EDT
QGUNNER Im Talking NECKING DOWN the 7.62x39
Not 7.62 lighter bullet
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 10:21:13 AM EDT
KMFDM, first off, the link to the ballistics page above IS Remington. Since that is the only ballistics page presented, it makes sense I would talk with Remington in mind.

Second off, the reason nobody makes better bullets is Wolf. Barnaul. Tiger. Silver Bear. See, Remington and Winchester- making only medium grade ammunition- sell it at $5-$10 a box of 20. Wolf costs $2.50 for a box of 20. If Winchester or Remington or whoever made better bullets, few would buy them. Furthermore, the US gun market is stupid. Ruger made their 7.62x39mm Mini-30 rifles have a bore diameter of .308". Not .311" like it is supposed to be. So even if one of the US ammo companies invested in making better bullets, they would still be .308" diameter, as most US made rifles that are not of the AK variant have .308" bores.

When does the 6.8 SPC yaw? Yugoslavian 7.62x39mm yaws after only 3 inches of tissue. Wolf yaws after 10". Why? The base! A Boat-Tail base makes bullets more stable in flights through all medium- not only air, but also human tissue. You can make the bullet be BT and yaw sooner- like what the Russians did with their 5.45x39.5mm rounds- but those have been made illegal in the US and also are frowned upon by NATO (NATO cannot formally ban the bullet type because, technically, it is a FMJ style bullet). Either way, if Yaw is what you want, you can get it- especially in the 7.62x39mm.

Bullet design is everything.

To FMJ- I was not talking about you when mentioning how to modify a 7.62x39mm round, I was sharing my own ideas. I do not recall mentioning you, so I do not understand why you got so worked up. Either way, if I offended you somehow, I apologize.
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 2:37:33 PM EDT
Qgunner2 No way Buddy.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 6:28:10 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 12:58:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/24/2006 1:18:23 PM EDT by binford]
I apollogize in advance if this a little off the subject. I was sure some folks on this forum have been hand loading an Amax bullet in 7.62x39mm. I've been curious how these perform since I first saw the post. Any good info on this somewhere? Gel test. accuracy ect... It sounds odd, but the most acurate I've ever been with a rifle off hand using irons @100 yds, was with an AR47. I was shocked! In a good way. It had a 20" heavy barrel w/ FF tube A3 upper, and A2 stock,A2 hider. Made me want one. What size bullet does American Eagle use in 7.62x39mm?
Sorry for the book, I got a little excited.
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 11:39:05 AM EDT
Don't ask this on the other side, awhile a go I asked what was the point of the 6.8 when you could shoot 7.62 out of an AR and I was lucky to escape with my life I don't think that most AR guys would want to shoot an AK round though an AR even if it was better. Not that the lowly 7.62X 39 could even hold a candle to the 6.8. When I asked it there must of been a AK guy checking on the other side because he came to my rescue by stating " It's amazing that any one has ever been killed by the lowly 7.62X39."
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 11:53:11 AM EDT
It depends on the stupidity of the AR company. If they give it a .308" bore then they should die.

The 7.62x39mm is capeable of very good accuracy, it just is not as flat shooting. Then again, it really doesn't take much working out to turn a simple knob to adjust for elevation. If untrained, stupid Ivan of the massive untrained 1949 Soviet forces could shoot his AK and adjust it for elevation, I hope you can too. Some Russian optics have BDCs for the 7.62x39mm, modern ones would probably prove superior in accuracy.
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 12:53:02 PM EDT
Q-gunner2. You say the 5.45 FMJ is illegal in the US. Where are you getting this information. Just recently I have seen Wolf FMJ for sale at a gunshow. And SG has it for sale on there website. Are yousaying that Sportsman's Guide is selling illegal ammunition? This is the first I have heard of this. So, where are you obtaining this information about 5.45FMJ?
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 1:01:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Q-gunner2:
It depends on the stupidity of the AR company. If they give it a .308" bore then they should die.

The 7.62x39mm is capeable of very good accuracy, it just is not as flat shooting. Then again, it really doesn't take much working out to turn a simple knob to adjust for elevation. If untrained, stupid Ivan of the massive untrained 1949 Soviet forces could shoot his AK and adjust it for elevation, I hope you can too. Some Russian optics have BDCs for the 7.62x39mm, modern ones would probably prove superior in accuracy.



Even with a BDC, it would not be very forgiving to errors in wind or range estimation, like a flatter shooting cartridge would be.
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 4:56:48 PM EDT
Yankee56, no, read closer. I was talking about a specific type of 5.45x39.5mm ammo.

The Russian military developed a hollow tip FMJ style bullet for the 5.45. It is basically a FMJ bullet jacket but with only 3/4 of a core inside. Thus, when the bullet hits something, the core shifts foreward because of the inertia and causes the bullet to spin (also called "yaw") uncontrollably. This makes for huge wounds and alot of damage.

That type of 5.45mm ammo has been BANNED from manufacture or import. Your regular old Wolf FMJ or HP doesn't have anything on that Russian mil. stuff.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 1:33:13 PM EDT
Q-gunner2. Ok, but I filed the end of a Wolf FMJ on a slant. From the lead to the tip, there is an airspace approx. 7/16"+. I didn't pull the bullet so I don't know exactly how long it is but if measured from the base of the case neck at the shoulder to the tip of the bullet, the bullet is approx. 1" long. That means that the airspace is almost half of the length of bullet. Not your 3/4" to be sure but enough to cause the bullet to be unstable after it hits something. I would still like to know where you have found this information about a banned 5.45 bullet. Do you have a link to the site where this information can be found. I would like to read it myself as I am sure others here would also. I should add that I am not concerned if that particular Russian bullet is banned. I could care less. I'm just happy to have any 5.45 ammo to shoot in my rifle regardless of the type of bullet. But I do want to know where this information can be found. Just call me curious.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 2:58:38 PM EDT
The 3/4" was an estimate, I am not sure about the size of the air bubble in the Russian style of ammunition but I do know it has been made illegal.

http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/showthread.php?t=613

There is some talk of it there. I do not know the specifics as I first read about it on gunsnet.net.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 3:00:56 PM EDT
Add on: Also, the Russian stuff is 70gr. and Wolf is 60gr. according to their ballistic information. So obviously they are not exactly the same... a bullet expert might be able to tell us if there is a major difference.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 1:47:49 AM EDT
Q-gunner2. The link won't work. Tried entering it, but no luck. Did get to the firearms forum. Searched for the thread. No luck. Didn't try gunsnet. In any case, I am aware of the 70gr bullet. That may be the bullet that is supposedly banned. This could just turn out to be one of those internet rumors. Until I see something official, I'll consider it just that: an internet rumor. Has anyone noticed that the 60gr. HP resembles a Sierra HPBT Match bullet? I wonder how a properly loaded 5.45 would perform out of a bolt gun. Might be interesting to try.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 7:16:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/28/2006 7:18:42 PM EDT by Q-gunner2]
East Germany exported some bolt action "match" 5.45x39.5mm rifles a few years ago, they are pretty expensive now, but maybe someone on here has one. If they do, ask how they perform.

EDIT: Yankee56, I could be wrong on the ban. The more I look the harder it is to find evidence. Sorry if I offended you, I read about it on gunsnet awhile ago and took it for fact as a AK-74 collector said it himself. I could be wrong, hope I didn't tick you off.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 7:22:26 PM EDT
Add on to the 7.62x39mm debate:

Hornady's reloading manual shows a 110gr. bullet in the 7.62x39mm with a 2,600 Feet Per Second velocity. Obviously, it is possible. If anyone has the manual, look through it, I did at my brother's house and found out that reducing the bullet weight or using better powders does make a difference. Isn't 2,600 what the SPC is listed at?
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 9:26:02 AM EDT
Q-gunner2, You did not offend me. And I am not ticked off. Just curious really. As you know, we always hear or read something that makes us scratch our head. Like, where did that come from. All I was asking was where did you see that information. I wasn't questioning your veracity. If there is a ban on certain types of ammo, like the importation of Chinese steel core, it would be in the best interest of all of us to know. In any case I'm happy to be able to shoot Wolf 60gr. FMJ or HP in my Tantal. I'm kicking myself now for not picking up the two cases of Wolf 5.45 at a show last week. The guy was selling it for $124/1000rds. I had my dealer order me a case of Wolf 5.45 a few months ago. He got HP which I didn't want. I prefer FMJ. That case cost me $140. 2 weeks later I found a case of FMJ online for $118 shipped....which I promptly bought. At the show I bought a case of Barnual 7.62FMJ for $119. He had a case of Golden Tiger for $114. Considering that some guys are having trouble finding any 7.62 or 5.45 this was like finding hidden treasure. Hope I see him at the next show. I'm going to make a few more ammo purchases.
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 5:18:44 PM EDT
The Wolf has a air pocket in their current fmj as far as I know. Don't think there is anything illegal there. The Uly hp is a great fragmenter, better than m193 by far at close range on water bottles. The point of a the 7.62x39 to me, is to have a good penetrating round and everything else second, so fmj for me.

I'd like to see a 110 or 100 grain 7.62x39 quality round come out, to see if they can make it shoot flatter. Taking that much weight out of the round might make it unstable tho.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 2:31:33 PM EDT


Slighlty OT, but mentioning of .311 and .308 bullets..... is this normal for wolf to be .308?
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 3:17:48 PM EDT
You have to pull the bullet to get an accurate reading, bullets have a parabolic shape, the widest part is inside the case neck.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 4:23:15 PM EDT
Ah, because 5.56mm measures .224 right off the bat. Guess that could vary on the round too.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 4:56:43 PM EDT
All Wolf, and in fact all Russian made ammunition is .310-.311" dia.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 6:54:44 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 9:04:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/2/2006 9:08:36 PM EDT by omega53513]
Hello.

I just wanted to add that HeavyMetal is correct on 5.45 info (the core shifting ammo, which causes massive inside wounds).

However I also wanted to say that such bullets are not produced by Wolff (maybe they are but we will never see them in US, government will never allow it). Such bullets were produced, and maybe still produced in Russia for Russian military.

Russian military designed this bullet because when they came down from 7.62(ak47) to 5.45 (ak74), military started complaining that regular 5.45 bullet doesn't have the killing effect on the person (so the person remains a threat for much longer) - so as a response Russians came out with this bullet (core shifting 5.45), which causes massive inside wounds and person dies faster.
(as HeavyMetal explained, core shifts forward(on impact) and bullet looses it's center of gravity and starts tumbling inside the target)

However there is a draw back to these bullets (5.45 with shifting core).
These bullets can't be used in woods or similar environment, because they start ricochet to any directions if hit a hard object. So if one fires the bullet, the bullet hits something on its way it can comeback and kill his friend. So Russians in Afghan were mostly using regular 5.45, and only when conditions permitted used core shifting 5.45.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 9:50:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/3/2006 9:51:18 AM EDT by High_Plains_Drifter]
.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 11:04:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By omega53513:

These bullets can't be used in woods or similar environment, because they start ricochet to any directions if hit a hard object.



All bullets deflect or ricochet, even if all they hit is a blade of grass. I've seen some very interesting tests on the subject.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 1:00:46 PM EDT
WTF...

The core shifting foreward IS what I said... the air bubble in the nose is what allows this to take place. Maybe I wasn't clear enough, but what I said is the same thing you said, only you worded it differently.

Yes, Wolf does have this property. Cut a FMJ bullet open and you see the air pocket.

7N6 is a specific type of 5.45, it may not be in standard issue or it may be new or outdated. There was Russian 5.45 "Ball" that was/is 70 grains. I know it exists. Hell, the military uses 5.56mm ammunition in 62gr. and 77gr. now, and used to use it in 55gr. So saying the military uses 62gr. ammo would only be half correct. I suspect the same is true of 5.45x39.5mm rounds, some are heavier than others.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 1:20:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/3/2006 1:21:38 PM EDT by HeavyMetal]
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 1:25:28 PM EDT
Did the Uly have mil. style headstamps (as opposed to commercial ones, which usually have the caliber stamped on the headstamp)? The 70gr. stuff I saw had mil style headstamps with a date in the 80s.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 1:25:50 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 1:26:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/3/2006 1:29:03 PM EDT by HeavyMetal]
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 2:28:41 PM EDT
I'll take your word for it, you seem to know what you are talking about.

Besides, I've always been a 7.62/.30 man myself. I have 11 .30 caliber rifles- I do not own a single centerfire rifle that isn't .30 caliber.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 8:25:35 PM EDT
Here is some more information.

Ectully the first round developed for the ak-74 is 5N7 (not 7n6) 5.45x39.

Before the previous post I talked to a friend who was in Afghan. Thats where I got the idea about the two different bullet types (one was the core shifting that does more damage). So I still believe that they had developed a second bullet type after the first wasn't effective enough.

However information on the internet doesn't suppord my opinion, and opinion of my friend (who ectully was there and shot them - as he says).
Anyway here is the info:

http://www.strategypage.com/messageboards/messages/1-7993.asp
http://world.guns.ru/assault/as02-e.htm

The Russian military-issue 5N7 specification 5.45 mm bullets are a somewhat complex full metal jacket design. The bullet's core consists mainly of a length of soft steel rod, cut to length during the manufacturing process to give the correct weight. There is a hollow air space underneath the bullet's thin copper jacket ahead of the steel rod core. The base of the bullet is tapered, to reduce vacuum drag (a so-called boat-tail bullet) and there is a small lead plug crimped in place in the base of the bullet, ostensibly so that the thin copper alloy jacket material can be stamped in place in the proper tapered shape. The lead plug, however, in combination with that air bubble in the point of the bullet, has the effect of pushing the bullet's center of gravity very far to the rear, and the hollow air space under the point of the bullet makes the bullet's point prone to bending to one side when the bullet strikes anything solid, unbalancing it. Most authorities in the West believe this bullet is designed specifically to tumble in flesh, tremendously increasing the severity of the wound.

When shot into 10% ballistic gelatin at 4°C (the standard simulant for human flesh, in the field of ballistics), the bullets always begin to tumble, sometimes less than 2" (5 cm) from the point of entry, and usually tumble end over end two or three times before coming to rest at a depth of 12" to 16" of penetration (30cm to 40cm); it may also move in a curved or even zig-zag path through the gelatin block as it tumbles. In combat in Afghanistan in the 1980s, and since that time, the 5N7 bullet has earned a fearsome reputation for creating horrific wounds.

With the 5.45 mm bullet, the tumbling produced a maximum wound expansion twice, at 100 and 400 mm of depth. With the 7.62 mm bullet, the maximum wound expansion occurred twice, at about 300 and 400 mm. 400 mm is the average width of a human trunk.

Some people have said that the Russians were concerned about the lower energies of the bullets and designed them to cause more damage than might otherwise occur.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 8:41:11 PM EDT
Thw 5.45x39.5mm stops the enemy because your wound gets infected and pieces of your kidnies wind up with lead fragments somewhere around your lung, and you die in a day or so.

The 7.62x39mm stops the enemy because it knocks them on their ass and really does some shredding with a good HP style bullet.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 8:42:31 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 9:04:18 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 6:11:55 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 7:24:25 AM EDT
??????
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 7:52:42 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 11:00:08 AM EDT
Here is the Russian standpoint...

5.45x39.5mm= poor

7.62x39mm= good

9.3x39mm= excellent
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