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Posted: 12/21/2005 5:38:22 PM EDT
What would be your preference, HP or FMJ in a battle and why? Assuming the other side had no body armor.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 9:59:50 PM EDT
I have about 2K of each. If the SHTF I don't think it would matter much. If I hit you you're going down and if I missed I'd just keep shootin. In that scenario ammo is ammo. THe people comming at ya won't be concerned if it's FMJ or HP.

My .02
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 3:47:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BrianLake:
I have about 2K of each. If the SHTF I don't think it would matter much. If I hit you you're going down and if I missed I'd just keep shootin. In that scenario ammo is ammo. THe people comming at ya won't be concerned if it's FMJ or HP.

My .02


Not what I was looking for.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 3:48:50 AM EDT
As long as the HP feeds in the rifle it makes no difference. Most Russian HP has a steel jacked bullet and doesn't expand much if at all.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 3:59:26 AM EDT
If your gun could shot either... why would you pick HP over FMJ or vis versa? Just curious what goes into choosing one over the other, other than price and availability.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 5:12:57 AM EDT
Personally, I'll take the FMJ over HP. I am not too concerned about about the lethality of a 7.62X39 FMJ round on a zombie. But if that zombie is in a car or behind cover? Personally, I will trade a little expansion for the ability to punch thru stuff better.

EPOCH
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 8:41:51 AM EDT
The SHTF in Bagdad everyday, 99% of our GI's are using FMJ. All the Iraq's are using FMJ. Perfect practice makes perfect performance. Shot placement is the key to putting a bad guy down no matter what the caliber. If I make a bad shot with a 300 Win Mag loaded with a BTHP but a good shot with a solid nose 22LR then I've done the job by stopping the threat. Don't worry so much about the "majic" bullet. Just go out and practice......alot.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 9:16:41 AM EDT

Check out this link and the links that Doc provides:
http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000644#000000
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 9:29:36 AM EDT
Our GI's don;t have a choise at to what they carry. YOU DO. I wouldn't carry either for any type of self defense. I would pony up the dough and buy some quality hunting rounds that have controled expanson instead of relying on perfect shot placement on a man who's trying to kill you and substandard bullet preformance.

There is a reason that you can't use FMJ for hunting in some states. FMJ can kill but any type of expanding bullet will be more effective in most situations.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 9:45:58 AM EDT
Whatever goes bang..........................
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 10:00:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2005 10:01:54 AM EDT by FALARAK]

Originally Posted By colt100:
Our GI's don;t have a choise at to what they carry. YOU DO. I wouldn't carry either for any type of self defense. I would pony up the dough and buy some quality hunting rounds that have controled expanson instead of relying on perfect shot placement on a man who's trying to kill you and substandard bullet preformance.

There is a reason that you can't use FMJ for hunting in some states. FMJ can kill but any type of expanding bullet will be more effective in most situations.



That is a horribly weak argument.

Deer dont wear heavy clothing, body armor, or duck behind vehicles/cover. What works for hunting does not necessarily apply to combat/urban warefare. Your assumption is that your enemy will be feeding by a brook, naked, totally unaware of your presence, while you have all the time in the world to go for that heart/lung shot at the right moment, with your specially loaded hunting rounds. Does that sound like SHTF to you?

To really answer the question - you would have to looks at the *actual projectiles* in question. Of current supply, lets assume Wolf FMJ, and Wolf HP in 7.62x39.

Most of the tests I have seen show little difference in expansion/penetration between the two. The HP bullets are not a true designed-to-expand-in-tissue hollow point. So it likely makes little difference in this specific case/comparison.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 2:00:56 PM EDT
Russian HP's rarely expand, and they jam more rifles than FMJ.

Soooooo.... FMJ for $1000 Alex.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 2:08:22 PM EDT
I've actually had great results with ULY HP expanding. I bought a couple of thousands rounds a while ago and have hunted with it. It cleanly expanded in wet newspaper(I know not a reliable medium, but still) and destroyed this coyote with one shot. There was a huge exit hole. I've never shot WOLF HP, so I don't know if it works as well as ULY. I prefer SP and HP for any "shit hits the fan" scenario. If HP or SP doesn't work reliably in any of my rifles I'd sell it, but so far it's worked perfectly in all of my AK's.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 2:37:11 PM EDT
I am going with SP, mostly because I have access to a ton of it, and it should be better suited to hunting than an FMJ.

SHTF don't necessarily mean blue helmets and moaning throngs of brain eaters. Might mean empty grocery shelves, or looters/raiders, or packs of hungry dogs. Might be that it was just a bad winter and the moose are crazed from starvation and randomly attacking folks.....well I was charged by one once, so it could happen to anyone right? What if they start organizing? that could be bad.

Link Posted: 12/22/2005 3:46:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By colt100:
Our GI's don;t have a choise at to what they carry. YOU DO. I wouldn't carry either for any type of self defense. I would pony up the dough and buy some quality hunting rounds that have controled expanson instead of relying on perfect shot placement on a man who's trying to kill you and substandard bullet preformance.

There is a reason that you can't use FMJ for hunting in some states. FMJ can kill but any type of expanding bullet will be more effective in most situations.



Weak....... But use whatever you can get ahold of. FMJ best all around simply because your target is most likely going to be behind something, and you'll need that penetration factor!
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 7:10:00 PM EDT
I love this forum!
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 8:49:05 PM EDT
Are talking a full out attack by zoombies
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 9:37:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FALARAK:

Originally Posted By colt100:
Our GI's don;t have a choise at to what they carry. YOU DO. I wouldn't carry either for any type of self defense. I would pony up the dough and buy some quality hunting rounds that have controled expanson instead of relying on perfect shot placement on a man who's trying to kill you and substandard bullet preformance.

There is a reason that you can't use FMJ for hunting in some states. FMJ can kill but any type of expanding bullet will be more effective in most situations.



That is a horribly weak argument.

I don't really want to get into a pissing contest with you two but why is this arguement so "weak"? Are you really trying to tell me that a nice soft point bullet isn't going to do a better job at stopping an attacker then wolf?? That is weak.

Deer dont wear heavy clothing, body armor, or duck behind vehicles/coverso a wolf round will go through a car?. What works for hunting does not necessarily apply to combat/urban warefareso that means that it could apply by your own statement. You show no proof that it doesn't and admit that it still could apply and call my arguement weak?. Your assumption is that your enemy will be feeding by a brook, naked, totally unaware of your presence, while you have all the time in the world to go for that heart/lung shot at the right moment, with your specially loaded hunting rounds. Does that sound like SHTF to you?

Also, are you saying that a SP 7.62x39 mm won't go through body armor and wolf will? Most soft body armor that's out there will be defeated by any rifle bullet. If going through armor is an issue, you need to look at a 308 or bigger round. Did I say SHTF is killing bambi? I take offense to your statement sir as all your doing is mocking what you thought that I was saying.

SHTF to me is not holding off an army of armor clad warriors. SHTF to me is defending myself from a burglar in my home or being in a Katrina type situation where you are being attacked by unarmored thugs. I would like to chose a round that expands reliably in all tissue, causing the most damage to the thug, hence stopping him from further attack.


To really answer the question - you would have to looks at the *actual projectiles* in question. Of current supply, lets assume Wolf FMJ, and Wolf HP in 7.62x39. You telling me that federal or winchester don't make 7.62x39 by saying let's look at what's available?

Most of the tests I have seen show little difference in expansion/penetration between the two. The HP bullets are not a true designed-to-expand-in-tissue hollow point. So it likely makes little difference in this specific case/comparison.

Let's see some of these examples of wounds in ballistic gelletin you talk about compared with a good quality SP like winchester or federal produce.



I NEVER ment to imply just beause you use a bullet for hunting it's a great self defense round. I do believe that in the 7.62x39 mm round, this does in fact apply.





Link Posted: 12/22/2005 9:41:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2005 9:42:12 PM EDT by colt100]

Originally Posted By azhammer:
Originally Posted By colt100:
Our GI's don;t have a choise at to what they carry. YOU DO. I wouldn't carry either for any type of self defense. I would pony up the dough and buy some quality hunting rounds that have controled expanson instead of relying on perfect shot placement on a man who's trying to kill you and substandard bullet preformance.

There is a reason that you can't use FMJ for hunting in some states. FMJ can kill but any type of expanding bullet will be more effective in most situations.



Weak....... But use whatever you can get ahold of. FMJ best all around simply because your target is most likely going to be behind something, and you'll need that penetration factor! Again with the shooting through cover arguement. Like I said above, will ANY 7.62x39 bullet go through a car or other common type of cover? If shooting through cover is needed that badly, you NEED to sell that 7.62x39 rifle and get a garand or M1a and load up a bunch of AP rounds.quote]
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 9:58:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2005 9:58:57 PM EDT by FALARAK]

Originally Posted By colt100:
I don't really want to get into a pissing contest with you two but why is this arguement so "weak"? Are you really trying to tell me that a nice soft point bullet isn't going to do a better job at stopping an attacker then wolf?? That is weak.



Well I dont want a pissing match either! This is an internet discussion. Why would it become a pissing match?

I am saying - a "nice" soft point bullet *may* not do a better job at stopping an attacker.... yes, that is exactly what I am saying, for reasons I specifically stated.


so a wolf round will go through a car?


Sigh. I never said that. But FMJ rounds are general accepted to have better hard cover penetration than soft point hunting rounds. Do you dispute that?


so that means that it could apply by your own statement. You show no proof that it doesn't and admit that it still could apply and call my arguement weak?


I dont really understand what your point is. Sorry?


Also, are you saying that a SP 7.62x39 mm won't go through body armor and wolf will?


No.... again - you are digressing. I demonstrated that hunting scenarios are different than combat scenarios.... and listed factual differences. What was your point again?


Most soft body armor that's out there will be defeated by any rifle bullet.


Not true.


If going through armor is an issue, you need to look at a 308 or bigger round.


You are really stuck on this body armor thing. I was just using that as ONE particular difference between combat, and hunting. I listed many other things... like cover, heavy clothing, vehicles, etc... Most body armor will stop a 7.62x39 round.... yes.... but I didnt mean the whole argument to hinge on that one statement.... and it doesnt.


Did I say SHTF is killing bambi?


No - but you recommdned Bambi ammo for our troops.


I take offense to your statement sir as all your doing is mocking what you thought that I was saying.


Wow. I wasnt mocking anything. Lighten up Francis.


SHTF to me is not holding off an army of armor clad warriors. SHTF to me is defending myself from a burglar in my home


AHAH! I think we are on to something! The question was about being in "battle" Not defending your home from a sole burglar.


or being in a Katrina type situation where you are being attacked by unarmored thugs.


Well that sounds closer to the original thread intent.


I would like to chose a round that expands reliably in all tissue, causing the most damage to the thug, hence stopping him from further attack.


Ok. Cool. I think there is just a difference in what we perceive "battle" to be.


You telling me that federal or winchester don't make 7.62x39 by saying let's look at what's available?


I am saying that from a common user stockpile perspective.... yes, less than 1% shoot any 7.62x39 from Fed or Win. Most of the AK shooters (this is the AK board) shoot Wolf, Barnaul, Silver Bear, Ulanovsk, surplus, etc. Which typically have come in FMJ, HP, and SP.


Let's see some of these examples of wounds in ballistic gelletin you talk about compared with a good quality SP like winchester or federal produce.


I have not seen any get tests done side by side with domestic commercial hunting rounds.... so I didnt quote any. Duh.


I NEVER ment to imply just beause you use a bullet for hunting it's a great self defense round. I do believe that in the 7.62x39 mm round, this does in fact apply.


And you are absolutely entitled to your opinion...... but it sure seems like you are looking for a pissing match. (it would be easier to argue with you if you used the built in quote feature....)
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 3:09:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By WolfFox:
If your gun could shot either... why would you pick HP over FMJ or vis versa? Just curious what goes into choosing one over the other, other than price and availability.


Right now availability is everything. When I have my choice I buy FMJ to stockpile rather than HP. I do so simply because that is the ammunition that the rifle was designed to use and I feel that it is best to use the ammunition the rifle was designed for if my life is at stake. A jammed rifle is only useful as a club and not a very good one.
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 12:17:14 PM EDT
Originally Posted By FALARAK:
AHAH! I think we are on to something! The question was about being in "battle" Not defending your home from a sole burglar.

This is the situation I was talking about, and really the only situation worthy of the AK. Personally
I just dont think the AK is the best for your home defense gun
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 1:51:56 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 2:01:18 PM EDT
Mogwa

You said it best!



Link Posted: 12/23/2005 2:19:05 PM EDT
FMJ - works better on cars
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 7:00:25 PM EDT
Wow! Didn't expect to get this many replies on the subject, but all have their own opinions and that is what I was after. I have about 3000rnds of both saved up. I was wondering why others purchased what they did and why. I just purchased two HP 640rnd tins because that is all I could find at the time. I just ordered three FMJ 640 rnd tins that will be shipped 12/31/05.
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 7:50:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WolfFox:
I just ordered three FMJ 640 rnd tins that Sportmans Guide SAYS (hahahaha) will be shipped 12/31/05.



Fixed it for ya.
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 7:54:10 PM EDT
Full Metal Jacket, of course. Did they make a movie called "Hollow Point"? I think not!
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 9:55:00 PM EDT
Actually they did make a movie called Hollow Point in 1996!! Something about Russian gangsters. Never saw it though so couldnt tell ya exactly.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 9:51:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FALARAK:

Originally Posted By WolfFox:
I just ordered three FMJ 640 rnd tins that Sportmans Guide SAYS (hahahaha) will be shipped 12/31/05.



Fixed it for ya.



Maybe so, but I've ordered allot of stuff from them and it is usually here before the expected delivery date. Either way, I have plenty to last until then and at the price I got it for I can what a while.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 2:47:40 PM EDT


Most soft body armor that's out there will be defeated by any rifle bullet.


Not true.




I have to take issue with this. There is NO soft body armor that will stop a 7.62x39, even a hollowpoint. There is none that will stop a 5.56mm either. The rifle plates that will stop a HP 7.62 will stop a FMJ just as easily.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 10:07:44 PM EDT
I've shot all types of 7.62x39 rounds doing penetration and accuracy tests.

I like em all. I alternate FMJ and HP. Got bases covered.

Never had feeding prob. in my guns.

prob. wouldn't waste time w/ plated bullets for anything but plinkin.

But love 125 Rem SP and Nosler BT and Win 147 gr FMJ for handloads



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